BC Media “Spins” Covid Checkpoint Story … Wiping Egg from Horgan’s Face

Premier John Horgan was quite clear last Monday: his NDP government would use the Public Emergency Act to temporarily restrict people’s travel outside their own Public Health Region, except for essential reasons.

“This will be conducted through random audits, not unlike roadside checks or CounterAttack during the Christmas season,” Horgan explained, as reported on the Global News website.

“Everybody will be asked where they’re going and where they came from. It’s not heavy-handed in my mind. It’s random and it will be done at a particular place at a particular time.”

Yes, the Premier had explained his plan very well.

But if implemented as Horgan said … disallowing any “non-essential” travel between health regions … it would indeed have prevented anyone from Vancouver to travel into Burnaby, New Westminster, Surrey etc … and vice versa…. because they’re in two different Health Regions.

The story hit the fan: the “people” were very unhappy; Civil Liberties experts raised serious concerns; municipal and police officials expressed doubts how/whether they could/should enforce it; and, social media (including this Blog) lit up with questions, concerns, condemnations.

You can review my rant about Horgan’s announcement here: http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/bc-imposes-collective-punishment-while-covid-scofflaws-go-free-uncharged/.

Tuesday, the government began backing down from Horgan’s announcement. Yes, BACKING DOWN! With little snippets here and there …. Public Safety Minister Mike Farnworth leading the retreat.

Vancouver Sun columnist was on to what was going on (although ironically he used the term “clarify” as well): https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-this-time-its-farnworth-who-explains-what-the-premier-meant-to-say

Of course, governments don’t like to be seen backing down (especially within hours) from any plan they’ve announced … particularly when it came direct from the mouth of the Premier!

So the “spin” began.

CTV Vancouver Island journalist Brendan Strain pushed for the true story of what was happening, and then reported:  “We kept getting passed around to different ministries and were told more clarification will be coming later in the week.”

“Clarification” ????

Ahh! Yes … “clarification”. LOL!

“Clarification” is a SPIN word … used by politicians and bureaucrats who say, announce, do something really stupid, impractical and unenforceable and then, after it gets a terrible reaction … realize they have to get their foot (or sometimes both feet) out of their mouths.

But instead of admitting they made a gaffe … they “clarify”.

Spin! Spin! Spin!

And it worked. (CAPS below in each case are mine.)

“The latest CLARIFICATIONS on the upcoming Covid 19 travel restrictions in BC are good news for Lower Mainlanders. The government says Metro Vancouver drivers will not have to worry about travel checkpoints,” Global TV’s Newshour told their viewers Wednesday.

A double bonus! Not only “clarify”, but turn it into “good news”! LOL!!

It went on and on …

“The National Police Federation, representing thousands of officers, is slamming the plan for checkstops to ban people from traveling outside their region and it comes as the province is CLARIFYING where you can and cannot go,” explained CTV News at Six.

” Farnworth provided a piece of further CLARITY on Wednesday for two neighbouring health authorities: The minister said Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health will be considered a single region under the new orders.,” the CBC reported.

“Province CLARIFIES rules on travel restrictions, checkpoints” headlined Kamloops This Week.

“B.C. CLARIFIES COVID-19 travel restrictions, Lower Mainland a single zone,” headlined the Abbotsford News.

“Public Safety Minister Mike Farnworth CLARIFIED Tuesday, saying the province is examining the use of periodic roadblocks only set up at places like BC Ferries or on Highway 1 leaving the Lower Mainland, to discourage recreational travel, and not conducting random individual stops,” Global News’ website reported.

Sad to see so many BC media gave the story, in my view, the kinder, gentler “CLARIFICATION” spin instead of telling their readers, listeners and viewers the TRUTH: the government had backed away, abandoned Horgan’s dumb, ill-thought-out, impractical announced plan. Period!

That’s the way the story should have been reported: TRUTHFULLY.

Words matter.

Was it a coincidence that so many media used versions of “clarify” to explain the government’s backdown? Or did the NDP’s spin doctors just do their job wonderfully?

I suspect the latter.

Former BC Premiers must look on in wonder at how Horgan could be responsible for such a public blunder, witness the resulting confusion, hear the negative reactions and then have his government do a massive retraction … and, yet, face no questioning about how, why the Premier himself messed up so badly… and made no apology.

Where ARE BC’s “political” reporters? Where ARE their News Directors/Managers?

How can there be NO questions from the media DIRECT to the Premier about what happened, why and how HE held a press conference to announce there would be ” random audits, not unlike roadside checks or CounterAttack during the Christmas season” … causing days of province-wide confusion, concerns, anger, defiance … and then it is all dropped, canceled within days … as if it was an April Fool’s joke … three weeks late!

No one was laughing.

BC’s media have to do a better job telling stories as they really are … and asking TOUGH questions when the Premier makes a mess, adding to an already difficult situation, and then his government has to back down!

Friday, Farnworth announced a ban on non-essential travel BETWEEN Health Region zones until May 25 … BUT Vancouver Coastal and Fraser Health Regions, along with Northern and Interior Health Regions will be regarded as single regions for the purposes of travel.

And NO roadside checks within/between municipalities. Period!!!

There could be ferry/highway checks to prevent non-essential provincial travel between the large health zones, with $575 tickets handed out to violators. But the government hasn’t even agreed yet with the RCMP if/how/where that will be tried.

All in all, an intriguing/confusing/controversial week in BC: and readers of this Blog had a great opportunity to see/experience how “spin” actually works.

Hopefully we can all spot it better from now on … even if BC’s media cannot, or will not.

Harv Oberfeld

(Pass it on: let others know what really happened. BC Media “Spins” Covid Checkpoint Story … Wiping Egg from Horgan’s Face | Keeping it Real… (harveyoberfeld.ca)

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55 Responses to BC Media “Spins” Covid Checkpoint Story … Wiping Egg from Horgan’s Face

  1. nonconfidencevote says:

    The ONLY way the politicians back down happens when public outrage is so loud and so clear they cant back peddle fast enough.
    The international Flight ban earlier this week was a case in point.
    People are fed up with the absolute BS spewed forth on a daily basis by all three levels of govt politicians that have absolutely zero empathy for the voters that have to deal with their incompetence.

    A pox on them all.

  2. Keith says:

    There’s a pretty decent write up by Les Layne in the Times Colonist, where he raises some points and questions, problem he doesn’t have the Minister in front of him.

    https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/columnists/les-leyne-will-new-travel-restrictions-actually-make-a-difference-1.24311346

    The relationship between the local press and politicos is just too cozy as you have often noted Harvey. They are more or less stenographers, who also pass then cut and paste press releases amongst each other and leave it at that. Then those that can then write an editorial that raises the questions that should have been asked in person and not just in print.

    As the week progressed it almost looked as if Horgan in the original announcement was making it up on the fly, which given the staff to kick the issue around and prepare some background, with the amount of examples around the world and in Canada E.G. The maritimes, of how tightening of travel restrictions have and are implemented prior to him speaking, ended in amateur hour.

    Then Friday rolls around; “Hey Farnsworth!, clean up on Corridor of Power 5.”

    They have done a pretty decent job on handling the pandemic given how it evolves, but on the issues of restrictions and the enforcement has been a debacle.

    Les Layne summed it up quite nicely at the end of his piece.

    “At the moment, it looks like a measure designed to placate people who are already following the rules and are annoyed at those who aren’t.”

    (Response: Les Leyne of the Victoria Times Colonist is one of the rare bright lights covering the Legislature. The VTC does not come up regularly when I Google media stories here in Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, but he, and in this case Vaughn Palmer of The Sun, tried to tell the real story of how/what went down last week. And it’s still not too late for BC’s political reporters and pundits to stop being NDP government cheerleaders and demand answers from Horgan himself about what happened, what went wrong, did he shoot from the lip or are his strategists so out to lunch they came up with his ridiculous plan without even considering/realizing the consequences???? h.o)

  3. 13 says:

    I wonder what it would take to hear someone at Global/Corus/Shaw/ NW etc say something critical of the BC NDP. Head cheerleaders Galius, Baldery, Sara have the ability to spin like a Mattel Top. I know that they can be critical becuase I remember their reporting on the BC Liberals.
    Poor Horgan must have been a union enforcer( Sgt at Arms) if you like. You can see the anger in his eyes when he is out of his comfort zone.
    The best thing that ever happened to the BC NDP was the election of Justin Trudeau. Horgan and company wont say one bad word about Justin, they dont need to a Justin is so corrupt and useless he needs no introduction.
    Lock Down????? Lets wait and see.

  4. Gilbert says:

    Premier Horgan is lucky that he has such a supportive media. If it were more critical, he would probably be far less popular. The coronavirus should be no reason to excuse all his failures.

  5. D. M. Johnston says:

    I shake my head at this and to reap the wrath of the NDP supporters, Horgan has completely lost the plot on the Covid pandemic. What is even worse, his ministers seem to be uninterested, period.

    Pandemics are no fun; pandemics are not a source of photo-ops; pandemics, are politically toxic.

    Horgan’s NDP have become a sort of yesterday’s child, dealing with yesterday’s problems while the main issue is Covid!

    The media, the mighty 5th Estate, has been neutered and are no longer deal with news, rather they have become the purveyors of petty stories, of little interest, lest they offend someone.

    Today’s news consist of “Breaking news”, which by dinner time, has become old news, rehashed to the dinner hour. As well it seems a vulgar name calling has become sensational news; “oh dear he/she called me a what ever and is racist”. At the same time politicians are so far away from the public spotlight that politcal ooze is now taken for granted.

    CBC news it too painful to watch; Global/Dead Dog 98 news is so vague and uninteresting one stops listening altogether. Then there is the Vancouver Sun that prints all the news that fits with their corporate bosses back east and has become a parody of a news paper.

    Spin!? I have being doing the transit issue for almost 40 years and the politcal spin on that subject is breathtaking. With questionable politicians and an even more questionable mainstream media’s spin: what I call the “Goebbels Gambit” (when one repeats a lie often enough, the people begin to believe it) the media helps government to spin the whatever blunder out of the public knowledge.

    Nuff said.

    Combine out lackluster news services (being polite), with our even more lackluster politicians, means the public are not getting the facts or the real story. Rather they are fed a gruel of half truths based sparkle ponies and pixie dust.

  6. 13 says:

    BTW if you google the Daily Hive re what is considered essential travel they have a very comprehensive list.
    Couple that bit of info with the fact that BC Ferries will not demand proof of your excuse they just want to hear a valid excuse. When you get to the base of the Coquihala Hwy I wonder who will be asking the questions and stopping cars. Maybe they will use the same special opps forces that ensured that 3 out of 100 people followed quarantine orders at YVR. Maybe they can move some of the guards from ROXHAM road over to the Hope Princeton Hwy. Better yet ask some of our local pipeline protestors to just go to Hope and close all 3 Hwys. That group has authority to block traffic anywhere they choose. Better call Horgan and ask who he wants to use

  7. Stu de Baker says:

    This blog piece is disturbing; not because it is critical of government, its ministers or other public officials, or the media, but because it is one in a series of escalating extremism.

    Extremism of words, which fuel the malcontents, happy with storming US capital buildings and fueling actions like these:
    https://globalnews.ca/news/7787989/bonnie-henry-nazi-graffiti/

    It matters not, what the topic is, the fervent rhetoric and repeated adjectives and volatile words are the same post, after post, after post; just substitute the topic.

    “Washington State butter in Nanaimo bars” would attract the same toxic replies.

    I have no problem with the restrictions, just that they were not brought on sooner and should have been more stringent. Interprovincial travel should have been curtailed long ago and this educated individual seems to agree with me, more than the usual rabid barkers on this blog.
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-travel-restrictions-not-far-enough-sfu-researcher-1.6001446

    I understand, the lifelong disappointment of not being handed a media medal upon retirement, or at other media screening some KIR participants, but hurt feelings aside, keep the venom below a constant screech, unless you are hoping to catch Tucker Carlson’s attention.

    (Response: Spoken like an NDP/Horgan spin doctor! How in the world is it “escalating extremism” to question a Premier who made an announcement that created/added confusion, consternation and anxiety to an already terrible situation? Horgan blundered terribly …and should be held to account for that. Believe it or not, that’s what happens in other provinces, at the national level, in every other true democracy …statewide and internationally … with a REAL media: if the Leader ANNOUNCES .. not just suggests … a ridiculous plan that would disrupt millions of lives even more …and then, it is scrapped within hours … his or her feet WOULD indeed be held to the fire. Perhaps you would prefer the system in Cuba, Russia, China or North Korea where the Dear Leaders can announce anything they want ..and no one DARES to question it or the Leader … no matter how stupid unworkable the “plan” is? h.o)

  8. Not Sure says:

    OK I am really confused. Last Monday Horgan announced new restrictions on travel. I thought it weird given that Ontario had just made a similar announcement a few days before and backed away from theirs almost immediately. So I wasn’t particularly surprised when the details on Friday differed from Horgan’s original pronouncement.

    In the end we have a better policy (I guess) and Horgan looks foolish.

    So why am I confused. Because after hearing Horgan and reading Harvey’s previous blog post, I went on line and read several stories quoting lawyers and university professors in public policy and the police etc on why this was a bad decision. It seemed like the media was doing its job.

    And even here, Les Layne and Vaughn Palmer and some guy at CTV
    have been praised for critiquing Horgan’s bungling. So, I just don’t get the outrage at the press for this particular story. Yes the over use of “clarity” sounds like they were all reading from the same press release, but still what more are you looking for?

    Now that is not to say that I am defending the media. I was listening to a podcast the other day and the person mentioned a study done in the US on the disconnect between what journalist’s feel is their mandate/core principles and what the public is looking for. Now the podcast didn’t go into a lot of detail and the online story I found wasn’t particularly helpful but what I understood for what it’s worth is this.

    According to the study, journalists have five core principles:

    oversight/holding government accountable
    transparency/impartiality,
    factual accuracy
    social criticism, and
    giving a voice to the less powerful

    By far, facts were the one principle that most of the public could embrace. It wasn’t 100% which I find shocking but it was well ahead of any of the others.

    So looking at our Horgan story. People want the facts. So journalists report what Horgan said. Some people want oversight. So journalists questioned the decision. People still want facts so the new government policy is reported. To continue to push the story might be seen as journalists overreaching, showing impartiality. Are there other facts to report? Is there any oversight that has been missed? If not, move on to the next fact based story. That may not be what some people want, but according to the report that’s what most people want. (Think, “Russia,Russia,Russia”)

    Similarly, look at social criticism and giving voice to the less powerful. The civil rights movement of the 60s, women in the 70s, LGBTQ and Indigenous issues more recently. Black Lives Matter and climate change. You are an ex-journalist Harvey. Did you see giving voice to the less powerful and social criticism as a core value? How do those stories get covered without offending some segment of society? or being accused of partiality?

    Another podcast (podcasts are great), I heard a couple of journalists say how extra careful they have to be in framing a story because of the social media backlash they know will occur. That was not true of 20 years ago.

    I am going to stop here. I could ramble on but my thoughts are too muddled. To sum up, I think discussing the media is extremely important. But it also is extremely complicated. I just don’t see an easy answer.

    (Response: It wasn’t most of the the media who pointed out the ridiculousness of Horgan’s announced plan: it was the public, civil liberties supporters, ethnic minority members, the RCMP, municipal leaders, very few reporters/pundits … and this blog. You should not find it unusual that questions should be asked …. not of his officials about how they will get the NDP government out of their Leader’s gaffe … but to Horgan himself how this happened, why it happened and who was responsible for adding MORE confusion, consternation and anxiety to an already terrible situation. That’s what actually happens in democracies where the media are not just government messengers or cheerleaders. h.o)

  9. 13 says:

    Just a brief comment on studebakers post. Since 2011 Ive followed KIR and for many many years the same posters that studebaker accuses of inciting a riot hammered mercilessly on the BC Liberal Party. They were accused of every heinous act politically possible. Oddly today some of the same posters are holding the NDPs feet to same blow torch that they held Ms Clarke and her gang to.
    To attack the KIR blog and its participants is over the top and whether stu de baker realizes it or not it makes him seem like an NDP shill.

  10. BMCQ says:

    I will address Harvey’s very interesting essay above a little later after I address Stu de
    Baker .
    Stu
    I am quit sure that most here will not mention this so I will .

    Very classy, I would not expect anything less from you !

    I am not disappointed that you would choose to insult Harvey only because I am not in the least bit surprised you chose to insult and belittle Harvey . You are not hard to understand, you telegraph your own attitude and beliefs vey well .

    As you know Harvey is now retired and he chooses to run and manage this blog, he provides the blog as a public service and in my opinion he is still doing much better journalism than 90% of the working journalists, he is still one of the best .

    Harvey puts his heart and soul into this blog and he does that for people like you and me and the rest here, he treats us all equally and he enjoys the argument, the discussion, and the debate, but I am quite sure he does not appreciate being insulted .

    I am quite sure that most others that run similar blogs would not have posted your classless insult, they would have in fact trashed your insulting post and they would have banished you from the site forever .

    Harvey and I disagree about Donald Trump in a big way, I feel the Trump policies were better for the USA, Canada, the rest of the World but Harvey disliked/dislikes Trump for his deportment, I do not care about deportment, I care about policies and results .

    Having said all of that, Harvey does not insult me and I do not insult him, all it takes is
    just a small amount of mutual respect and we can agree to disagree, there is no need to insult one another .

    I am not speaking for Harvey, but he takes each and every decision made by any politician or political party on an individual basis, his opinions are not based on ideology and he is willing to side with any given party or politician providing he agrees with their policies .

    One day he may support the Federal Conservatives the next the Federal liberals, it depends on their policy, not their brand .

    …………………………………………….

    Harvey, please feel free to trash any and all I have put up here, I jus wanted to get it off my chest and I somehow feel better . I will post something else on topic later .

    I wish I had your patience and understanding !!

    (Response: When people personally insult others they disagree with, it says more about them than their targets. Sad human beings. h.o)

  11. D. M. Johnston says:

    @ Stu de Baker.

    If anything, you sound like a “Bot” which is used a lot on blogs to spread fake news and alternative facts.

    Personal insults are not needed and if one does not win an “Odor of BC” or a Odor of Canada”, means that the government does not like you; which can be translated in this case, do not ask hard questions of the NDP or the Liberals.

    For the very reason you dislike this post, is the very reason I read Keeping it Real…; Norman’s Farrell’s In-Sights and many more; to get an independent view of what is happening in this province, simply because the mainstream media is not reporting it.

    I keep saying Horgan has lost the plot with Covid 19; the NDP has done nothing but help their own base with oodles of cash, and nothing more and the mainstream media play the lick-spittle with the NDP.

    What this post is conveying is that Horgan blew it and the mainstream media acted like spin doctors, whitewashing his blunder as they have white washed so many of his blunders before.

    What is being conveyed to the public isn’t news, it is propaganda and why I do not subscribe to the Sun or watch much TV news anymore because it is more of unnews of cats rescued from trees and someone somewhere did something forgettable but is reported as “Breaking news”.

    For those NDP acolytes defending Horgan, have a look in the mirror, because you are just the person(s) who are killing democracy in BC and Canada. Those who are afraid to question Herr leader have certainly proven my “Dud” theory of politics, which basically sates, We elected duds because only those who will not question the leader and his policies, tend to get nominated and then elected. Independence and honesty goes right out the window, as we only elect duds, A**-Kissers.”

    The exception: independents that are elected as they are beholden only to the electorate.

    Jody Wilson-Raybould is the prime example of the dud theory in action.

    (Response: I am no longer alone in noticing what is going on … how easy/gentle too many of the media are on Horgan and the NDP government. As I have mentioned before, respected politico and columnist Norm Spector calls them “cheerleaders”; and now former Sun columnist Shelley Fralic has written a terrific column raising questions about the government’s handling of closures/vaccines etc: https://vancouversun.com/opinion/shelley-fralic-sending-out-an-sos-we-need-answers. h.o)

  12. Not Sure says:

    As someone who has been called a shill for the NDP, an apologist for Dr. Henry, a pimp for astrazeneca and been admonished for a lack of intelligence I feel I should jump right in here. LOL

    I am NOT completely SURE what the topic is. Horgan sucks or the media sucks. But I am going to talk about the media. In Harvey’s previous blog post he was upset that the restrictions would prevent people from crossing Boundary Road to shop or visit family etc. and that “BC’s mostly complacent, compliant media should be screaming like hell about how the NDP government is now trampling on our citizens’ basic civil rights.”

    Fair enough. Except that very issue was addressed at the news conference when Horgan said.”We get that. We want to make sure that public safety health representatives are not going to be heavy-handed with this. This is for those who are recklessly flouting the rules. It’s not for regular folks who are going about their business.” (I am guessing here that somebody from the media asked the question.)

    In Harvey’s response to me he said that it wasn’t the media who were pointing out the ridiculousness of the restrictions; it was civil liberties groups, the police etc. Again fair enough. But where did we find out about those complaints. The media. They reported those complaints.

    So serious question. Where did the media fail in this specific story. They covered Horgan’s news conference. They sought clarity on some of the specifics. The next day they reported on the criticisms from various groups. A couple of editorialists criticized Horgan’s bungling. The media reported on Farnsworth’s news conference which at least so far nobody seems to be complaining about.

    Honestly, if this had been Christy Clark, I would have rolled my eyes and said “See” to my Liberal friends and moved on.

    And please note, I am not defending Horgan or the media. There is plenty to criticize. I just don’t understand the outrage at this specific story.

    (Response: The public has a RIGHT to know what happened last Monday? Especially in light of the widespread concerns, protests, fears, anger Horgan caused … before others bailed him out with a “what the Premier said is not what the Premier meant to say and what the Premier announced is not what the government is actually going to do… so just ignore Horgan’s announcement”. LOL!!! What would REAL reporters elsewhere go after Horgan on? How about: WHY did the Premier announce travel between Health Regions, except for essential reasons would be banned? WHY did the Premier say there would be Christmas style roadchecks …ie stopping everyone …. to see where they were going and whether they would be violating the travel ban? WAS Horgan just shooting from the lip? WHO came up with that plan? DID they not consider the implications/complications/stupidity of such a travel ban? DOES the Premier …or his strategists not know Boundary Road separates Vancouver Coastal and Fraser Health Regions …making his announcement banning travelling from one region to another even more ridiculous? There’s a few to start with … and if they need more, perhaps a professor or two at journalism school could hep out. h.o)

  13. nonconfidencevote says:

    Yo !
    Stu!

    If you dont like this blog.
    Feel free to start your own OR find another local blog that isnt constantly interrupted with ….advertising……..

  14. 13 says:

    At not sure, it would seem that all of the names you have been called fit to a tee. Im not sure the diminished capacity fits as you manage to confuse most issues highlighting NDP/ Horgan bungling by taking the media and Harvey and then you add your constant confusion as to what the topic was/is in the first place.
    If Horgan doesnt employ a group of supporters to read blogs read letters to editors and attend rallies / protests he would do well to hire yourself and Mr Baker .
    In your second to last paragraph you ask the question “where did the media Fail….”
    Did Galius/ Zussman/ lui/ Sara or any News person directly ask Horgan why he said what he said and why the week was spent explaining the issue? Did anyone ever confront him with the names of people that dies while he was campaigning last year? Has anyone asked Horgan why he hasnt come forth with paid sick leave laws?
    Feel free to fact check me to your biased hearts content Some day we can examine your claim that ongoing events need not be reported as the conclusion is whats important

  15. Keith says:

    Harvey, you asked,

    “ Where ARE BC’s “political” reporters? Where ARE their News Directors/Managers?”

    Generally at the same place they’ve always been, keeping the level of investigation at a point where they not rocking the boat, but doing enough to keep they and their employers collective ball rolling.

    It was no different with the previous liberal govt. At times there was a collective wonder if the local political reporters were shills for the liberals, if not a subsidiary by their inaction to ask much past layup questions, or look the other way. Remember Glen Clarke’s deck.?

    A good example is the present Cullen enquiry into lower mainland money laundering, which at the time was common knowledge, reported nationally but mum was the word more or less locally. The usual suspects got with the programme when the excellent ongoing reporting of Sam Cooper was published, by then the money laundering had been to blatant to ignore anymore, and essentially they followed Sam’s reporting when he had got them the all clear.

    A couple of comments:

    @Stu De Baker.

    What works for me is to imagine I am in Harvey’s front room when I post anything.

    @13

    Oddly today some of the same posters are holding the NDPs feet to same blow torch that they held Ms Clarke and her gang to.

    Not really odd, because someone is critical of a politcal party or person, doesn’t mean that same person is automatically a fan of the opposition. It may be the case that their viewpoint is good, honest, competent, truthful government no matter who that may be or the party they represent.

    (Response: I think it’s mostly a management problem: I believe too many newsrooms today are directed by and run by people who are just incompetent, or have no real sense of what political coverage is about; or some who do know how to cover politics and go after the truth, but keep getting overruled by the incompetent brass above them. So now community service/messaging/cheerleading has replaced hard news kickass truth seeking; and, too many reporters are too friendly with those they cover; and skilled politicians and party strategists cajole and play them like a fiddle! h.o)

  16. BMCQ says:

    Regardless of which political party one might normally support it would be moronic to disagree with anything written by Harvey in his essay above .

    Facts are Facts, we cannot dispute the truth no matter how “In the Tank” we might be for any party we support .

    I have been a B.C. Liberal supporter for years but the Basi/Virk thing stunk and people should have gone to jail .

    For B.C. media to be as compliant and complicit as they are is literally treasonous and the compliancy by that same media should disqualify them from calling themselves the eyes ears and voice of the people .

    In my house we tend to watch recorded Global 6:00 PM news, probably out of habit, we speed through and delete just after the usual inaccurate weather forecast .

    It is now almost getting impossible to watch Keith Baldrey as he has, in my view, become a part of the NDP Horgan Team, perhaps I am slow on the uptake but he should be receiving part of his salary from the NDP Government, seems to me he is literally running interference for Horgan, Dix, Farnworth, and Dr. Bonnie .

    Then of course we have Zussman who I feel is so deep in the tank for the NDP that he needs Scuba Gear !! On top of that he needs a translator.

    I must also admit that since Michael Smyth left the province for CKNDP (sorry GBS) Smyth has capitulated as well . Listening to Smyth and Baldrey is like listening to Joseph Goebbels and his twin, really sad .

    Full disclosure to “All around good guy” Stu de Baker, I am quite busy so I am not wholly familiar with the CBC, CTV, Check, and a few more media outlets, but I unlike YOU trust Harvey, Harvey is indeed just like you, he is honest, forthright, he is a person of integrity, strong character, and he is transparent .

    I must also add that I now only listen to CKNDP/NW just after the 6:35 AM News where Vaughn Palmer comments on anything topical and like Harvey is is a person of integrity, he is independent, he has strong character and he has NO sacred cows .

    CKNDP/NW just fired Bruce Allen to replace him with a “Whacked Out” PC Social Justice Warrior who checked all the boxes but alas that Bruce replacement is so incompetent, confused, inept, and dishonest he will not last any time at all .

    Who klnows, he may no longer even be there as I type this .

    Keep up the good work Harvey, you must be thrilled to know that Stu de Baker is in your corner, you are very blessed !

    BTW

    It is very nice to see a few of the regular participants of “Keeping it Real”: stand up for our host, there are not many in Canada that will actually up for anything that really means something today, what a sad uh commentaryah on Canadians and Canadian uh Society !

    (Response: There are lots of very bright people covering the Legislature, but my impression is somewhere along the way, they lost (or some never had) the “feet to the fire” attitude real reporters should have to the politicians they cover. After all, these people control BILLIONS of dollars of taxpayers’ money; they pass laws and sign Orders that affect millions of lives; they make decisions that can ruin thousands of businesses and kill hundreds of thousands of jobs … so they deserve TOUGH questioning … lots of it … especially when the Premier himself makes an announcement that causes GREAT consternation, unhappiness, confusion, and then it is almost totally repudiated by his own government within hours! h.o)

  17. BMCQ says:

    A few weeks ago I mentioned that ONE VERY important thing that local, provincial, and national media are guilty of is MANIPULATION of the NEWS by OMISSION !!

    Omission of pertinent information while filing and reporting the news is a weapon used by companies and reporters which in fact “Weaponizes” the news, and unfortunately the
    “Great Unwashed” are most of the time no wiser, the public is fooled and manipulated
    into making decisions and in fact voting based on that manipulated news report by using misinformation and omission and that in my opinion is criminal .

    Twitter, Facebook, Google, Tapper, Don Le Mon, Anderson, Maddow, CKNDP, Global, WaPo, NYT, Boston Globe, and so many more are ALL guilty of this and they should be held accountable .

  18. 13 says:

    @Keith, you missed my point with the oddly enough….. I was trying to point out to the Stu de Baker that he was way off base claiming that Harveys posters were trying to storm the capital. Stu was obviously trying to win points with the NDP faithful by painting Harvey and his blog followers as a bunch of right wingnuts. For the most part Harvey has level headed commenters that can see both sides of most issues. Sorry I wasnt crystal clear. One good thing came out of this someone flushed every ounce of credibility down the toilet with an unneeded rant

  19. e.a.f. says:

    Its nice to critise, or what is that line about there are those who can do and those who can’t critize. Now Harvey I wouldn’t put you under the heading of can’t do, even if I disagree with you on this topic. I’m more in Stud a baker’s column.

    On the one hand criticism is good. It keeps politician and others on their toes, it means the public is engaged, etc.

    No one is going to get this COVID thing right because none of them have done it before. Yes, politicians are going to do things wrong. What we might want to consider, most of them are doing the best they can. Now it will be said their best isn’t good enough and they ought to step aside, as with Ford. None of these politicians have had to do this before. Yes, they make decisions based on politics, which ought not to be done, but that is the way we’ve set up our society. Over in Alberta, they don’t bother with essential workers in the meat packing plants. they are required to continue working but no vaccines. The number of people catching COVID in the meat packing plants is horrible. Kenny is doing just about nothing and in my opinion the worst premier when it comes to COVID.

    Horgan is trying something and people aren’t happy with what he is doing. Then he does a turn about and he is still being critised. he can’t win.

    Ford definitely can’t win and yet, I think he has done the best he can with what he has. Many are demanding his resignation. Me, a leftie, I’m fine with him in office. Not keen on the P.Cs. voting to not extend paid sick leave to essential workers. consider it stupid, but he has done a reasonable job of dealing with things.

    The Maritime province premiers are doing a decent job.

    On one level we need to keep politicians feet to the fire. On the other hand, we need to understand none of them have had to deal with this type of crisis before. They are constantly having to balance health care with economic care.

    personally I would have forgotten about vaccinating seniors and started with essential workers. Old people such as myself, we’re going to die soon any how. OMG that does sound a little weird. On the other hand having Grandma and Grandpa dying in care homes, is so bad from a political point of view. But then no one seemed to care where Grandma and “Grandpa were these past 3 or 4 decades, in these care homes, which weren’t doing such a great job of looking after them and were dirty to boot. But suddenly many are sooooo concerned about Grandpa and Grandma. So concerned they started with giving vaccines to them first. I would have started with the health care workers first, then the rest of the essential workers. giving shots to seniors was the smart political move and kenny knows it. Not enough people in Alberta care about people of colour in the meat packing plants, sort of like in the U.S.A.

    Harvey I’m not agreeing with this post. I’ll defend your right to write it. Its a democracy.

    As to the person who suggested stud a baker was a bot, get real.

    Other than vaccinating everyone, the best thing we could have done from the beginning was simply shut the borders, keep everyone in their homes for 6 weeks and then have a look at things again. As I’ve written before you can get over bankruptcy, but you can’t get over death–no recovery.

    As to the suggestion of using enviornmental protestors to block highways, kind of like that. tell them there are humming birds in the area in their tiny nests and they’ll be right there. they’ll be much more effective than the RCMP at lower costs.

    In an earlier post BMCQ wrote he had stopped his international travel for business. He is to be commended. Now if he can do that, why others can’t stay in country is beyond me.

    International travel is bringing variants into our country, which we really don’t need. in my opinion variants are not going to get better, just worse.

    while we’re on the topic of not doing things well: Many people with chronic diseases were given the opportunity to get their vaccines early. However, those 13K with Parkinson’s were not. Don’t know why because it is one nasty disease and if people with Parkinson’s get Covid, as my sibling’s doctor said, she’s dead. So if anyone in government is reading this, do include Parkinson’s patients in early vaccines. if they survive COVID, they’ll have even more problems than Parkinsons as they become long haulers. If you need any information, you can find it over at the breaker news where they interviewed one of the leading experts on Parkinsons, Neurologist, Professor Bas Bloem, Radoud University, Netherlands.

    Harvey thank you for writing this article, whether we agree with you or not. Your blog like many others are keeping a lot of us in touch, engaged. Consider yourself an essential worker.

    (Response: Of course, disparate views are fine strengthens the blog. Insults are not … sometimes I edit them out; this time I left them in because I believe it showed the bitterness, coarseness and low level of discourse some in social media spew out … very sad. As for your point this is all new territory; mistakes are to be expected … you are quite correct. BUT the media has a job to do: when ANY Premier makes an announcement, sends people and businesses into total confusion, concern and even panic … and then it almost all in canceled in a couple of days, it is the DUTY of the media to go after him on it …and demand an explanation of how and why this happened. And why no apology? Bet they would have gone after Christy Clark, Glen Clark, Gordon Campbell! h.o)

  20. Not Sure says:

    Let’s assume somebody (me, Baker, whoever) is actually being paid to come on Keeping it Real to shill and pimp for the NDP. So what. Deal with whatever argument is being expressed or defended. Imagine debate in the Legislature.

    Ellis Ross asks a question. Horgan gives a response. Ross says “that’s what a shill for the NDP would say”. Yeh that would work.

    And then we get this. “Regardless of which political party one might normally support it would be moronic to disagree with anything written by Harvey in his essay above.”

    Well count me a moron. Because I can’t agree with EVERYTHING Harvey wrote in his essay.

    I don’t want to belabour this. But Horgan screwing up last Monday’s announcement (which has been clearly covered by the press) is done. I doubt that any Horgan hating biographer would spend a sentence on this specific event. I doubt that any media hating analyst would spend a sentence on this specific topic in a book on the failings of the BC press corps.

    I have just finished listening to Horgan’s press conference on business initiatives post pandemic. Strangely, nearly every question dealt with travel restrictions and (for 13’s benefit) paid sick leave. At one point he said he would be happy to take questions on the new initiatives. He dumped the sick leave on the federal government. He answered the questions on restrictions which mainly dealt with how they were going to be enforced.

    Given the over the phone questioning I am not sure what more could be expected from reporters.

    Now having said all that, Keith’s comment and Harvey’s response and BMCQ’s comment about omissions are all important and should be considered. I want to come at this topic as a questioner. I have no set agenda. I am, literally, Not Sure. That’s why I mentioned the report on the media and their supposed core values and whether of not that is what the public wants.

    We definitely want facts. That is not in dispute. And we want oversight. But how much oversight. Do we want to be nitpicking Horgan’s (or pick a leader from any political party) bungled attempts at explaining a ban on travel or are enforcement rules of said policy or sick leave provisions or business initiatives now the main story.

    Serious, honest question.

  21. BMCQ says:

    ALL media would have been ALL over Harper of had failed to procure vaccines which has basically got millions of Canadians waiting for vaccinations pitted in a race against Covid and the Variants, think about that when you watch and listen to that Smarmy PM mumble on about his service and caring for uh Canadians, how repulsive .

    Harper or Mulroney would have long ago been locked in the Stocks, the media would have provided the rocks and sticks for tax payers to throw .

    Christy Clark and Campbell would have been vilified by media 24/7 if they had strategized and failed like Meggs and Horgan, instead Horgan gets media “Clarification”.

    e.af.

    Let us not forget that we in Canada had a preview of Covid with SARS and there was plenty of warning from scientists on what was soon coming .

    Those same scientists are already warning us about next time but I believe by electing Joe Biden and Kamala we have already allowed China to win .

    You might agree with Stu the Baker but I know you, you would not insult our Host, you know exactly how important Harvey’s Public Service is when he provides with the chance to argue, discuss, and debate on Keeping It Real .

  22. e.a.f. says:

    BMCQ, Harvey, as some other bloggers, are not just a Public Service but an essential service especially in the time of COVID. Given our social interactions have been cut back considerably and many of those we still have are suffering from COVID fatigue, this blog and some others give many an outlet to express themselves and interact with others.

    O.K. here we’re going to disagree. Yes, we had SARS, but it wasn’t quite like COVID. Yes, all governments knew at some time we would have something go side ways and have some sort of pandemic and there are scientists who are still talking about more to come. I didn’t think SARS was that big a deal (O.K. at some level I now this will get a response) but I think Ebola is the more serious disease and governments know it. Unfortunately, its politics involved and that means usually tax paying involved. if governments had started to ramp up for this pandemic or spent more money on scientific research, there would have been a lot of complaints regardless of what party was involved, what country, what science. Some countries wouldn’t have had the money. Some countries don’t care about their citizens. some politicians don’t want to increase taxes.

    As to China, it wasn’t governments all by themselves who created this monster. Its corporations and consumers and that started in the 1980s and now I’m way off topic…….

    We, the world, got lucky, there was a vaccine created quickly enough, but next time the world might not be so lucky. Next time, lets hope governments have a game plan, starting with the World Health Organization, right down to cities, towns, villages.

  23. 13 says:

    “for 13s benefit paid sick days”
    Horgan has announced its in the works. Good luck to us all. The thought of paid sick days has been hi lighted by the spread of covid when people that cant afford to miss a shift go to work sick. A common problem that will take careful well thought out legislation.
    Most employees without paid sick leave are minimum wage service sector and non union. Having said that my union job which pays a good wage has not got paid sick leave . No social engineering allowed so good union paying jobs should be part of the Horgan fix. Who foots the bill. The employer or the tax payer? Personally this initiative doesnt make much difference to me unless somehow the tax payer ends up funding it.
    The details are being worked out as I type. Lots of details coming from the NDP this week.
    @eaf your willingness to allow Horgan wiggle room is admirable. Not the least of your willingness to help the NDP is your theory that you have lived your life and you should not have been placed at the front of the vaccine line. Your willingness to take the rest of us older BCers to the afterlife is very generous

  24. 13 says:

    Just heard that Horgans plan to fund sick days will NOT involve employers as they have suffered enough. This obviously means that tax payers have not suffered enough. So the province will shoulder the costs.
    Tax payers will help McDonalds retain employees?
    Tax payers are funding Horgans sick benefit plan
    I guess its all in the rollout and we know that the NDP are pros at roll outs
    I was wrong in my last post. Let the social engineering run amok

  25. Stu de Baker says:

    Banshees, Part II
    So, let me try this again, in the face of truly semi-professional protestors.

    The first few words, of the first few sentences, in my previous post:
    “This blog piece is disturbing; not because it is critical of government….” See that? “Not because it is critical of government.”

    “Extremism of words, which fuel the malcontents…”

    “It matters not, what the topic is…”

    Then came Harvey’s immediate, predictable, oft repeated response:
    “Spoken like an NDP/Horgan spin doctor!”
    Followed by the equally predictable:
    “Perhaps you would prefer the system in Cuba, Russia, China or North Korea.” I’m surprised Argentina didn’t make to that list.

    In any event, once again it is the waving of the angry flag, on any topic, which gets the fervent anti-whatever-Harvey-says followers whipped up. The few that remain here, stand on the sidelines chanting; “WHOOP, WHOOP, YEAH, GO GET ‘EM HARVEY.”

    Individual self-contradictions don’t matter and BMCQ, who can take the time to write multiple, 600 word pieces, says he’s too busy to fact check.

    I see, in the past couple of days, the daily case count has fallen, ever so slightly. People, for the most part have accepted the restrictions, because they really don’t amount to much more than the well behaved have been living voluntarily, for a year. If you were a resident of Tofino, Whistler, Kelowna or Revelstoke, you would get it.

    Even the tourism sector, which has been constantly asking for special financial treatment, has endorsed the imposed limitations.

    e.a.f described the newness of this pandemic and that we/they, have been learning on the fly. Not Sure gets it and has pointed out fact checking contradictions, only to be called a moron.

    Had the hated big pharma folks not shifted to overdrive and created the completely new mRNA vaccine in record time, where would we be today? I speculate, but probably untold more deaths, more serious lockdowns AND the howls from here shattering the glass of the Wall Centre.

    The BC provincial leaders have admitted failures, difficulty of enforcement and to the restrictions being aimed at those who would put us all at risk.

    It sure would be nice to see even just one line on here acknowledging the young nurse who succumbed, the infant who passed from COVID-19, the +/-1,600 deceased family members and the thousands of burned out frontline workers.

    (Edited..off topic)

    Response: So much sound and fury signifying nothing but an attempt to divert attention away from the REAL topic of this blog piece: HORGAN’s gaffe, Horgan’s strategists’ ineptitude, Horgan’s government’s complete back down … and the BC media’s FAILURE to do their jobs and confront the Premier on his screwup. I hope everyone notices you don’t even mention HORGAN in your attempt to distract: it’s another example of “spin” … but it doesn’t work, because we’re on to you! h.o)

  26. BMCQ says:

    Did NOT say SARS was like Covid, said SARS was a warning of things to come, sort of like “The Ghost of Xmas yet to come”, the difference is Scrooge learned from that dream and governments world wide did not learn from the warnings of science provided after SARS and others . Facts do matter . SARS was however fairly serious if one was to lose a sibling or other loved one so I would say it was therefore serious .

    For many many years now scientists and various health authorities have warned the world about coming pandemics, even stating that there could be many to come but politicians did not listen, there was warning after warning and there were publications and articles outlining/describing the possible scenarios, yet no one listened . Again, facts are facts .

    Media would have been far more aggressive, there would have been much more investigation and reporting if Harper was PM and if G Campbell was Premier, to deny that is simply delusional . Media are and have been asleep on the job and in fact media have been supportive of the Canadian PM and in B.C. The media are compliant and complicit in their deflection, dim attention to facts, and dereliction of duty to their listeners/followers/subscribers . Facts do matter .

    (Edited..off topic …which is BC, Horgan, media)

  27. Not Sure says:

    Herding cats, Harvey. LOL

    I am still NOT SURE of the topic. Is this about the media or Horgan?

    I might be wrong but I think you were talking about reporters/media and how they are letting, in this case, Horgan get away with something because of – oh I don’t know – laziness, bias, poor management.

    My position here is not that there isn’t fault to find with the media (or Horgan) but that this particular story just doesn’t reach the egregious state that requires the kind of outrage that it generated. Feel free to disagree.

    In response to my comments 13 asked me “Has anyone asked Horgan why he hasn’t come forth with paid sick leave laws? Feel free to fact check me to your biased hearts content”

    Well I thought it was funny that the very next day, the media spent considerable time doing just that and pointed it out by adding “for 13’s benefit”. Now 13 is talking about paid sick leave. Which is absolutely worth talking about and something Horgan should be questioned about if the topic is Horgan. But if the topic is the media then I would say the media, in that particular case, was doing its job. Again feel free to disagree.

    Are there problems with the media absolutely. But when someone lists all the news sources that he sees as problematic – NYT, Washington Post, CNN hosts, CKNDP, Global etc) and leaves out the Toronto Sun, the National Post, Fox hosts etc then what exactly about the media are we talking about.

    Do we actually want to talk about the media including social media like Twitter and Facebook and whether or not it is living up to their core values or do we just want to vent at Gailus and Baldrey.

    (Response: When you write “this particular story just doesn’t reach the egregious state that requires the kind of outrage that it generated”, it tells me you don’t know enough REAL middle class blue collar working people (not bureaucrats, professionals, teachers etc.) whose daily lives (shopping, family, business, recreation) take them from Burnaby, or New Westminster, even Abbotsford, Richmond etc etc into Vancouver ..or vide versa. I do … and as soon as Horgan made his dumb gaffe … announcing no one would be allowed to ravel between health regions, except for ESSENTIAL reasons, there was HUGE concern, confusion, anger and frustration for hundreds of thousands British Columbians about how this would severely impact them and what is really “essential”. You should be REALLY SURE that kind of misleading, false threat by a Premier … any premier … followed by an immediate almost total backdown within two days should and must be QUESTIONNED by the media in a democratic society. And BC’s media has disgracefully let Horgan off the hook …again. By the way, it is now 10 days AFTER Horgan’s goof and 5 days since Farnworth’s “clarification” and we still haven’t seen ANY police traffic checks/stops/interrogations anywhere!!! We need MORE questions please of Horgan…not less!! h.o)

  28. D.M. Johnston says:

    @ Stu de Baker, et all.

    Spin, spin, spin………………you offer nothing but deflection.

    Quote: ““Extremism of words, which fuel the malcontents…”

    Is that the best you can do because I have been called worse, by both the Liberals and NDP, when I spoke the truth about transit issues. Hell, they even tried to sue me for libel, but the defense for libel is the truth and when cooler legal heads prevailed, funny thing, no libel.

    When the mainstream media start glad handing the government, one enters the throws of dictatorship and the MSM becomes nothing more than the Canadian version of Pravda.

    I forced myself to watch the news last night and all I can say is “dreadful”. Amateurish no longer describes Canadian news as it has become a parody of itself, almost like the BBC comedy W1A, poking fun at itself, only in Canada, it has become the norm.

    Again Horgan and the NDP has blown it, again the mainstream media comes to the rescue to help the premier save face.

    When a blog, Keeping It Real, exposes the farce what the Horgan NDP have become, send in the shills, the bots, the acolytes, to spin the story to such a degree to blame it on us and not them.

    I thought Horgan and the NDP were going to be a breathe of fresh air and they have learned from their past mistakes; they haven’t and continue down the road of trite mediocrity, trying their best to make the previous infamous government look better than theirs.

  29. Not Sure says:

    Another insult. LOL. What makes you think I don’t know REAL middle class people blah blah blah. This is exactly the kind of rhetoric Baker was getting at.

    First off you are misrepresenting my view. I wasn’t saying that people shouldn’t have been outraged at Horgan’s announcement. I am saying that now that it has been clarified that the continued outrage on this site is excessive. The press covered the outrage and Farnsworth was out clarifying/backpedalling well before his official announcement.

    You asked about enforcement. At yesterday’s press conference (about business initiatives) Horgan was asked about enforcement several times. If this topic is about the press then I would say they are doing what you want. Here are a couple of stories.

    https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/covid-19-police-await-enforcement-powers-for-travel-restrictions-amid-warning-from-legal-community

    https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/columnists/les-leyne-will-new-travel-restrictions-actually-make-a-difference-1.24311346

    Now as for Horgan, are you looking for an apology like Ford’s. Well good luck. I can’t see more than “I am sorry I wasn’t clear enough. We are trying to get people to stay at home. This is not the time to be travelling. We are working with the police on how best to enforce these rules.” Spin Spin Spin if you wish.

    Seriously, I would love to hear other people’s views on a broad discussion of the media and how it could be improved. But it does bug me when someone fills an entire paragraph with opinion and supposition and ends with “facts do matter”.

    (Response: Spin. Spin. Spin. You write “now that it has been clarified” in regards to Horgan’s “announcement”. It wasn’t “clarified”: it was dismissed, disgraced, trashed and trounced! Remember what the Premier said: that ALL non-essential travel between BC Health Regions would be banned. NOT!! And before it was dumped in the bin, it caused a lot of unnecessary concern, confusion even fear for many, many people .So yes, he should apologize and yes, he be asked how does it happen that a Premier calls a Press Conference to personally makes an announcement that is repudiated, canceled, abandoned (not “clarified” within days. And if you really know working people who became worried, confused and feared their daily lives would be disrupted by Horgan’s false announcement t, YOU should be demanding answers of Horgan too! Not making excuses for him … that it has all now been “clarified” …and even that is NOT true: we’re all STILL waiting for the details of who/when/where highway/ferry roadchecks will or will not take place; what kind of questions can police LEGALLY ask: and what happens if people tell police “I’m a legal licensed driver, I’m sober it’s none of their business where I’m going or why” !!! Don’t throw our hard won democratic RIGHTS away so fast and easily. h.o)

  30. AndyO says:

    Where is the media? Rather than look at the overall story they pull snip its out for emotion. I heard Chris Geilus, from Global BC, say on Lynda Steeles show, on CKNW, that travellers “will” be fined if they travel between the new health regions. It says in the order from Farnsworth “
    Enforcement
    The goal of the order is education and reminding people about travel restrictions.

    If the restrictions need to be enforced, police can issue a fine.”

    Education first, fines second.

    Just be honest and give the full story

  31. BMCQ says:

    e.a.f. – Not quite sure – Stu

    The fact is as Harvey stated and as others pointed out and I stated by saying media are compliant and complicit in supporting Premier Horgan and his Minions, you have as much as admitted those facts, those same facts are out there and there is no denying any of it, media have failed the “Great Unwashed” .

    Media have failed .

    Speaking for myself I would be just as upset and frustrated if Horgan and his party were B.C. Liberals, but to repeat myself I believe media of all types would be doing a better job if it was a Federal Conservative PM and Gov that had FAILED the Canadian People and our country . It is rather unfortunate that we cannot ask DEAD Canadians how they feel about the lack of vaccines and the lacklustre vaccine roll out .

    Personally I might enjoy the personal company of Premier Horgan as opposed to Premier Christy but that does not negate the fact that Premier Horgan stumbled and mumbled and media deflected and ignored his fumbles and that I find very offensive and so should you .

    Baker

    I may never agree with you but I am happy you have rejoined the debate, I am confident that one day sometime far into the future you will get it correct . Good luck !

  32. BMCQ says:

    BTW

    Seeing as we are all still here .

    It is long past time for media to ask Failed PM Justin, Dr WHO/Tam, Premier Horgan, Dix, and Dr B to be fully transparent and clarify that contracting Covid from touching or coming into contact with surfaces is MINIMAL .

    The “Great Unwashed need clarity on this question and business’s right across Canada and the Free World need that same clarity and a definitive answer, $ Billions of Dollars and Billions of hours are spent on the scrubbing of surfaces, it is time for media to do their jobs and demand answers .

    Perhaps the Premier can answer that question and Farnworth and Dix can clarify a day or two later .

  33. 13 says:

    Hi guys Im not sure but allow me to obfuscate and confuse the issues. It was only cute the first twenty times.

    “Now things can change. Of course they can. And that is why making comments about how good or bad Canada is doing at a specific moment in time is kind of pointless”

    As I pointed out earlier Trudeau/ Horgan would both subscribe to this flawed theory as it dismisses their gaffes errors missteps. ie the people that died during the 6 weeks the NDP campaigned to win a majority.
    For Trudeau we start back in Feb 2020 completely skip to fall of 2021 and no need to try and figure out how many died because of sporadic vaccine delivery.

    Your history students must have loved the steam lined version of history
    It all started with a big bang and ended when China unleased a deadly virus on humanity.

    (Response: When you think about it, the very idea that “making comments about how good or bad” ANYTHING is as being “kind of pointless” runs contrary to the very idea of what democracy is all about …and it belittles the Parliamentary system of government. Why have an Opposition then? Let’s all just sing the praises of the Dear Leader and go to sleep knowing he is trying to do the best for the population, so no point in criticizing or even asking questions when he screws up, makes big gaffes or announces something that is impractical, illogical or even impossible. h.o)

  34. e.a.f. says:

    13, your last para addressed to me, gave me a good laugh. Hey I don’t want to take you into the after life. From my perspective there is no after life, so I’m always good to go. Its just I sit here and when I go out on the deck and see all these young couples, under 40 with their little kids, I worry. What if one of those parental units gets COVID and dies. what happens to those children, the future tax payers of Canada. Not many truly want to die, but if we’re looking to get the best bang for our buck, why vaccinate old people first, beyond it doesn’t look good to have them dying all over the place. I’m just putting out a suggestion as to what I think would have been a better game plan for the vaccines.

    Now the topic is travel, and in this “semi lockdown”, its going to protect a lot of kids and their under 40 parents, who aren’t vaccinated.

    My suggestion was, I think that all health care workers should have been vaccinated first, along with essential workers. Seniors in care homes didn’t get COVID from sitting in their rooms, it was brought in, most likely by care workers who were not vaccinated. Care workers were travelling from facility to facility, from health authority to authority, taking the virus with them. Same with care workers who came into homes, from home to home.

    All seniors had/have to do is stay put in their homes to avoid getting COVID. It was that easy. parents with kids, they had to go out and work, etc. I got with the agenda before COVID even got to the ISLAND. I read the South China News and knew what was coming and prepared. yes, its not fun sitting in the house, but its better than being sick, dying, or being a long hauler. when you look at what happens when an old person dies and a young person dies, the impact on families and society are very different. I’m not advocating knocking off all persons over 65, but in Italy they had to make some very tough decisions when COVID hit them a year ago.

    As we get through COVID we might want to decide as a society how we handle the next pandemic and who gets the first shots, because my money says, if I were betting, nothing much is going to change in those care homes. They’re mostly privately run and the end game is making a profit. So if you’re looking at it from a $ and cents perspective, what is the greatest return on your money. omg I do sound like the worst capitalist around. But its what corporations and governments do every day, decide who lives and who dies.

  35. Not Sure says:

    Sorry 13. I thought I had addressed my comment in the last thread but hadn’t. Not worded well for sure.

    BMCQ had made a bunch of inaccurate claims about Canada’s rankings re: vaccines. I pointed out that Canada on nearly every measure on the site he linked was doing quite well. The caveat was to myself. Things can change. So I thought it pointless to be bragging that Canada is doing all that well using those kinds of rankings. It was the comparison based on a fluid ranking that was bothering me not the criticism of the initial vaccine rollout.
    I apologize for being unclear.

    I do love the innuendos about my professionalism as a teacher though. Keep up the personal slags. I will try to ignore them. By the way, history is made up of millions of events. Some get remembered and most get forgotten. The pandemic will be remembered. Horgan’s gaffe and where Canada stood on April 28 on a vaccine ranking will be in the dustbin.

    Look I am long past trying to explain why I don’t feel the same outrage as some of you. But it has nothing to do with the idea of holding a government accountable. By all means hold the government accountable. Harvey claims the press wasn’t doing its job. I have pointed out ways in which they have. For whatever reason, Harvey wants more. Both from the press and from Horgan. Fine. Keep screaming. At some time I might scream along. Just not right now.

    About the travel restrictions and enforcement Harvey says this

    “what happens if people tell police “I’m a legal licensed driver, I’m sober it’s none of their business where I’m going or why” !!! Don’t throw our hard won democratic RIGHTS away so fast and easily.

    AndyO in the very next post has given Harvey an answer.

    “It says in the order from Farnsworth Enforcement.
    The goal of the order is education and reminding people about travel restrictions.

    If the restrictions need to be enforced, police can issue a fine.”

    Education first, fines second.

    Some people want it stricter. There are others that think it goes too far. So, I am curious and need clarity. I get the first question. What would happen if you talked that way to a cop. But I am not sure what you mean by giving up democratic rights because the way it is written some people might take it as a criticism of the travel restrictions.

    (Response: I have no problem with Farnworth’s explanation or goal of education … although I’m not sure police have any right, barring any evidence of a possible crime being committed, to stop and ask citizens where they are going and why? But it is NOTHING LIKE Horgan’s announcement/threats/scare and, frankly, lie a few days earlier about what would be done and how it would all work. And the Premier has yet to explain to the citizenry: what happened, did he just shoot from the lip, who planned the ridiculous strategy he announced, did the NDP really believe it could trample our rights without pushback for civil rights groups, the police and the people … until the bit hit the fan??? Should HORGAN not be questioned or apologize for the confusion, consternation, anger HE caused before Farnworth and the media stepped in to wipe the egg from his face? THAT’S what happens in a democracy … with a free and uncompromised press. h.o)

  36. 13 says:

    @eaf, “all seniors had to do is sit in their homes” Sometimes you must base the entire population on your own somewhat comfortable position,.
    Having read your posts I see that you have a fairly good lifestyle. Youve been retired for about 20 years. Collect ample pensions from a gov job. And I think you live in the family home passed down from your mom and dad . You look after your sister.
    Many other not so lucky seniors get by on CPP/OAP. Many have a retirement plan that both levels of gov endorse. Work and pay tax until the day you die. Both Horgan and Trudeau are 100% behind this plan. Judging by the two budgets just passed those two leaders like the status quo. You lament seniors care homes and their conditions. Many seniors would love to be able to afford a care home.

  37. G. Barry Stewart says:

    BCMQ: “Media would have been far more aggressive, there would have been much more investigation and reporting if Harper was PM and if G Campbell was Premier, to deny that is simply delusional.”

    Well, Harper was the master of secrecy and controlled media access, so there wouldn’t have been many answers there. As for Gordon Campbell, the media took it easy on him on the sale of BC Rail — and run-of-river IPP contracts and the go-ahead on Site C, which have saddled BC Hydro (and us) for many decades of unneeded and overpriced power.

    To me, “Glen Clark’s Deck” was the peak of BC’s media holding a government’s feet to the fire.

    When Gordon Campbell got a smoothing over on his Maui Wowie, the slide had begun.

    Full page government ads in newspapers and news websites, and 30-second TV commercials (all paid by taxpayers) have a way of retracting the talons of media tigers. It is interesting/telling that the soft-pedalling by media continues, despite the “anti-business” government in power.

    (Interesting back-story on the Maui situation: http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/2010/01/question-you-never-heard-asked-when.html)

  38. BMCQ says:

    No matter how one chooses to “Spin It” media has always been harder on a B.C. Liberal Government and media HAS ALWAYS been toucher on a Conservative Government, to deny that FACT does not make sense .

    It is really irrelevant to attempt to point out that harper was secretive, media were still much harder on the Harper Government than they have on the PM Justin Government .
    Facts are Facts, and Facts DO Matter !

    Why don’t you just take a minute or two and really compare a so called secret that Harper might have been guilty of hiding under the sheets and then compare that to the hundreds of Canadians that have died and might soon die going through torture having a hose rammed down their throats for several weeks before they succumb to Covid because of the ineptitude and inability of Canadian PM to acquire and procure vaccines of ANY brand in a timely manner .

    (Edited…you made you point, but now getting way too far off topic…. which is HORGAN/MEDIA)

    If one chooses to not accept my opinion that is fine by me, but I would certainly be interested in hearing what other people have to offer on this, perhaps I am in the minority, are media playing favourites or are they not ?

    I like to think that I am being fair to media, I agree with Harvey and others on the media that seem to be working hand in glove with the Premier Horgan Government on this but GBS may possibly have “One Foot on firm ground”, there may have been times sin the past that media have dropped the ball on investigative reporting on other issues and other brands of government .

    I suppose if that was true one might then be able to conclude that media are failing the “Great Unwashed” on many different levels and issues .

    If that is the case we should all be worried .

    Harvey did touch on the possible problems with assignment etc. if that is the case the blame may be able to be attached to management .

  39. 13 says:

    Not sure, if my comment about your teaching history while ignoring historic events was a slight your right. Sorry. Upon a bit of research your are a retired English teacher so accuse you of overlooking events that caused a certain outcome and besmirch you as a bad history teacher was wrong and again Im sorry. Also accept my apology for a run on sentence

  40. e.a.f. says:

    13, that is pretty good.

    yes I’m doing fine in retirement, but I worked for this and paid for it also. government pensions and those of the unions which represent government workers are good, but while you are working as much as 7% of your salary is deducted to fund that nice pension. When are you and others going to get over government workers having decent pensions? The message I’m reading from your comment is that some how government workers aren’t deserving of these pensions. The real problem in this country is, that not all workers are given decent pensions or have the opportunity to earn them.

    As an aging baby boomer, I’m not the only one who lives comfortably but like many it is because our parents sent us to post secondary education, and left us an estate. Almost every one I know inherited and our parents were simply working class. It elevated our ability to fund not only our retirement but help the grandchildren purchase their first homes.

    You write many would like to be able to live in those care homes. Not if they knew they were going to die from COVID. If you have time read some of the articles about care homes in Ontario. What goes on in them, well if the people were dogs the SPCA would be there to save them.

    (Edited…getting way off topic …which is Horgan/Media)

    AS to your allegation I base the entire population…….. No I don’t. I know what poverty looks like, having spent approx. 4 years writing about it and being a pain in the ass to more than one politician in the previous decade. It really is quite terrible for adults to not be able to provide for their children and the impact on children is horrific. It is not good when people can’t afford their medication because they live below the poverty line. Even as a kids we were aware of poverty around us and knew if not for the luck we had, we also could have been poor. Yes, a lot of things in this life has to do with luck. No matter how hard some people work, do the right things, people still wind up poor. One in five children in this country live below the poverty line. Wonder how they will fair over the decades as COVID remains with us.

    We live in an “entitled” era where people don’t think the rules apply to them. That they will not catch COVID and if they do its the government’s fault, not theirs in some way. If people don’t want to catch COVID, they follow the rules about going out and about. “And even then its all a matter of luck.

  41. Gilbert says:

    It’s obvious to me that John Horgan is a weak leader. He announces policies that are not well-planned or practical. He’s probably a much better union boss than premier.

    Since he wants an excellent relationship with the worst Canadian prime minister in history, he’s incapable of criticizing him. The two leaders are superb at reacting rather than leading, getting along with the media and acting. It’s so sad.

    (Response: The public still don’t know how Horgan came up with his soon-repudiated Monday Mayhem: was it his own idea, or that of some back room strategist? And looking at the confusion, anger it caused, too bad he has the media so mesmerized, they failed to do their jobs and find out! And yes, he really is soft on Trudeau these days: maybe he figures he’ll get more out of him that way…. or he doesn’t want to do/say anything to help get O’Toole/Tories elected. h.o)

  42. Marge says:

    And what about this fiasco on the part of the NDP government – setting up pop sites for areas in the Lower Mainland high in COVID and look how badly it turned out. The government is now saying they won’t do it again. Who comes up with these inane ideas? Isn’t there anybody with common sense in the government:

    https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/covid-19-no-pop-up-clinics-planned-as-fraser-health-apologizes-for-negative-experiences

    And maybe Not Sure, our English teacher, can explain what the heck Dix meant with this statement:

    “These pop-up clinics have not been successful because they’ve undermined confidence in the process while immunizing a lot of people in critical neighbourhoods.” — Health Minister Adrian Dix

    They kind of show how incompetent they are at the simplest of tasks. They don’t seem to be able to do anything right with regards to handling the pandemic.

    (Response: Here’s more on the pop up clinics: https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/04/29/covid-vaccine-clinic-confusion-apology/. I would not say, though, the NDP government hasn’t done anything right: the vaccination rate for those over 70 topped 83% … that’s pretty good! And you can’t blame the province for supply problems … that’s a federal responsibility. But with precious supplies, and BC announcements that injections would be based on age groups, indigenous status, then specific front line or critical industrial workers, I can’t understand where they suddenly came up thousands of extra doses to do pop up clinics open to almost anyone … instead of just increasing or moving up vaccinations in the already approved/designated groups. And they certainly should have known that any announcement of pop up clinics would draw THOUSANDS more people than they had doses for anyway. Dumb. h.o)

  43. 13 says:

    Its obvious that the NDP are capable of making rules. They may not make sence and they definitely wont be enforced but they just keep on coming up with bad ideas
    Still being cooked up the sick day plan (fiasco in waiting). To watch Farnsworth fawning over the judges comment re the penthouse party guy is laughable. The thought of the party host being charged with manslaughter would be great if indeed we lived in a law abiding society. Trudeau and Horgan are both soft on crime

    eaf by your own admission you live comfortably. You constantly cry out for higher taxes to fund (fill in the blank) In my opinion when you want to pay more ( because you are able) and ask that taxes are raised across the population board you are indeed making choices for everyone based on your situation

  44. Stu de Baker says:

    Ah yes, the BC NDP and its leaders are a disaster and are doing such a horrible job.

    Oh how much better off we would be, with a Conservative Government:

    April 29, 2021…

    Alberta; “Over the last 24 hours, we identified 2,048 new cases of COVID-19. This puts our positivity rate at about 10.1%.
    Over the last 24 hours, we have identified more than 1,300 variants of concern. Variants now make up approximately 62% of all active cases.

    Ontario; “We are reporting 3,871 new COVID-19 cases on Thursday, the fifth day in a row cases have been lower than 4,000.

    Although Ontario slipped a bit on Thursday, Ford and Elliott have done an amazing job to keep the numbers up there ahead of the pathetic NDP in BC. Horgan, Dix and Henry just can’t keep up as a meagre 853 new cases were reported on Thursday.

    (Edited: Have given you GREAT breadth, but now going WAY off topic, which is Horgan/Media)

    The only conclusion is, this blog is merely a venue for a mob, angry at everything, to rant.

  45. Not Sure says:

    No matter how you spin it my dog is the best dog in the world and to deny that FACT does not make sense.

    Bias is everywhere. We all have it. No one is immune. There is unconscious bias. Confirmation bias. Even our upbringing and worldview tend to give us bias in a particular direction.

    Saying that the media shows bias in favour of the NDP especially without proof doesn’t make it true. GBarry giving just a handful of examples to the opposite has to at least give someone pause.

    As much as I love fact checking for details, for the most part I am a big picture person. That’s why the continuation of the Horgan controversy isn’t worth the time as far as I am concerned. He blew it. It got fixed. Done. Not saying anybody is wrong for thinking otherwise but that one single event does not define Horgan nor the media.

    Remember the fuss over the phone foul up back in March. Gnashing of teeth. Pulling of hair. Fixed the next day. Done.

    Pop up clinic. Apology. A promise to change. Done. (Unless they don’t change then keep at them) But if we are talking about the media notice that both Harvey and Marge to prove the NDP’s incompetence are using articles from the msm. The media is doing its job. They have presented the facts. Are they supposed to grab all their readers by the lapels and scream “can’t you see how stupid those guys are?” Wouldn’t that be bias? People, mostly, just want the facts.

    Marge specifically asked me to explain Dix’s comment. Not sure if she is being rhetorical and is just trying to see how I would spin it or if she actually wants an explanation of the literal meaning but I will do both. In two days they vaccinated 6000 people in a hot spot. He thinks that is a win. But it was disorganized and frustrating and he worries that people will be hesitant about going out again. That is a loss.

    How would I spin it. Why would I. They admit it was poorly organized. No excuses. Get it right the next time. But if I were a paid partisan I could use whataboutism. What about all the other screw ups in all the other provinces and countries. This isn’t unique to BC. Or look at all the good things. Like we may be getting our second doses sooner than expected. Or, Prince Rupert. If you read through Marge’s link, Prince Rupert’s success is buried in the very last paragraph. How many people read that far. Is that bias. Of course not. That is old news. Just like the phone story and Horgan’s goof-up.

    To repeat, we all have bias. We see the same facts. An NDP supporter can’t really deny the bad stuff but will emphasize the good stuff. The critics will ignore the good stuff and emphasize the bad. That’s politics.

    I pondered whether to continue on. I have plenty more to say but I have already said too much. I don’t expect everybody to agree with me 100% or at all. That is the nature of discussion/debate. Feel free to criticize. I actually don’t mind. I know I have biases and maybe I am missing something. If people don’t acknowledge their own biases and actually try to understand the biases of others then it just becomes a spitting contest which nobody wins.

    I am trying to be open and honest here. Hope you have a better understanding of my position.

    (Response: Wouldn’t it be interesting to live in a country you seem to prefer: “Pop up clinic. Apology. A promise to change. Done.” That’s it? Done. No questions needed afterwards to Dear Leader about HOW/WHY the screwup occurred; no responsibility of the elected officials of the government to explain, beyond an apology from a bureaucrat, what happened to cause thousands of people to line up as early as 4 a.m.; no need to answer silly questions as to why officials then let people stand for FIVE HOURS in line BEFORE telling them there was no pop up vaccine clinic there or no more vaccines available! No, no ..we don’t need silly questions from angry citizens or a free inquisitive media. Dear Leader and his Commissars will tell us what we need …no, DESERVE … to know, and that’s it. NOT on Keeping it Real! h.o)

  46. 13 says:

    Number and liars. Stats without adding BC and prorating the numbers .
    See you in the pop up lines stu. Im sure Horgan gets his free ride from the media because they cant find fault. Just listened to the NDP s main propaganda outlet NW this am. They are trashing Kevin Falcon just in case he reenters politics. That and they need to seem political without ever saying anything negative about Horgan.
    Im certain Horgan realizes that the HO blog is populated with haters. Mind you for the past 12 years I sort of felt it was the BCL that was hated. Turns out the NDP/Horgan are also subject to criticism. I mean on KIR because the bought and paid for media are on your side stu

  47. BMCQ says:

    Stu

    You seem to be very supportive of the B.C. NDP Horgan Government, are you by any chance supportive of the media coverage that PM Horgan is receiving ? Do YOU believe that media in B.C. are being fair and balanced ?

    Do you believe that media would be treating a Christy or Gordo Government the same as they are running interference for Premier Horgan ?

    You then point out the Covid situations in other Provinces governed by Conservatives, perhaps you make valid points, can media be criticized ? Or are media taking a hard line against those Conservative Governments ?

    I really hesitate to confuse you with the facts as it is more than obvious you have already made up your mind .

    Did you ever for even one second think that Conservative Supporters/Voters might be upset with and critical of the Conservative Governments you mention ?

    Do YOU honestly believe that the Conservative Governments YOU mention are not being criticized by the very people that voted for them if the voter/citizen finds there is blame to be laid at the feet of the Conservative Government ?

    How could any thinking person believe that Conservative votes/residents in the provinces mentioned are 100% behind those Conservative Governments ?

    Are media in those provinces different than those in B.C. ? Are media in those provinces actually supporting the Conservative Governments or is media critical and looking to ensure that there is transparency for voters/citizens to see and hear ?
    Is that not what we should want in B.C. ?

    Employing your kind of reasoning and think in blindly supporting YOUR B.C. NDP Government does not necessarily mean that Conservative voters in any given province would automatically and blindly back a Conservative Government that made errors similar to the Canadian PM and the B.C. NDP Government .

    Then I have one final question for you, what kind of Press Coverage are those same Conservative Governments receiving ? Open, honest, fair, balanced ?

    Is media investigating and exposing mistakes and misdeeds in those provinces or are you just in the belief and hold the opinion that media in those provinces are literally working with those Conservative Governments ?

    It sure appears that way in B.C., I won’t even mention the latest fiasco with the so called “Pop Up” Injection Sites .

    To be fair and honest I believe mistakes have been made by the Federal Government and Provincial Governments but I strongly feel that the Horgan NDP Gov have been given better treatment than they deserve .

    I may be mistaken but it does appear that as time goes on and MORE mistakes are made by Health Authorities and the B.C. Government coverage will/has become more critical but don’t you think it is about time ?

  48. Not Sure says:

    LOLOL. Harvey. Spitting contest.

    I acknowledged every one of your complaints about the pop up clinics. It was covered by the media. The government apologized (which is something you are asking from Horgan). The government is promising to do better. Seriously what more are you asking.

    Did I say no questions should be asked. Did I? No and the media did ask them. It was in the articles you and Marge linked. I honestly tried to present my point of view. I acknowledged my own biases. I presented both sides of the issue. I feared a spitting contest. And what do I get. A spitting contest. Good grief.

    Same with 13 to Stu. “numbers and liars. Stats without prorating the numbers” making it sound like Stu is misleading. So do the math. Ontario is 2.87 times larger than BC. Multiply 2.87 t0 BC’s 853 and we get 2448 well below Ontario’s 3871. BC is 1.16 larger than Alberta so we would have to multiple Alberta’s already larger number. (But as I said earlier in a post that was criticized because you thought I was letting governments of the hook), things can change so I am not going to be overly critical of those Conservative governments especially because when they are trying to get it right as is the NDP here and the Liberals in Ottawa.

    I get that people are frustrated and upset. We all are. But obviously a constructive honest respectful conversation sharing opposing points of view is out of the question. I will step aside.

    (Response: ” Seriously what more are you asking?” Happy to tell you, the BC government and the BC media: the “people” have a right to know exactly what happened! As I’ve already said “HOW/WHY the screwup occurred?” and “why officials then let people stand for FIVE HOURS in line BEFORE telling them there was no pop up vaccine clinic there or no more vaccines available?” DETAILED explanations to those questions (if the media PUSHED for them) would be a good start. h.o)

  49. 13 says:

    These various governments across Canada have all had a year to get their covid ducks in a row.
    As we (KIR CROWD) Live in BC we can complain about the BC NDP to our hearts content. Stu and Sure can use governments across Canada anyway they wish.
    After one year our BC NDP have not handled the Covid file as efficiently as they should have. BC ers are being confined to quarters while plane loads of variants arrive daily
    YES not Horgans problem. Well perhaps when Trudeau screws up its up to Horgan to stand up. Kinda like the sick days fiasco.
    The mistakes all of the provinces have made, pale in comparison to what Trudeaus handling of every aspect of covid has done to harm Canada and Canadians
    Ease up stu and sure Horgan and Trudeau will hopefully get what they deserve

  50. e.a.f. says:

    13, I don’t recall suggesting increased taxes across the board, for everyone, but for those whose income warrants it. This pandemic is not cheap for any level of government and all are going to be carrying deficiets which will have to be paid off. Taxes are going to have to go up. Not for those who can’t afford it, but for those whose income warrants it. If the provincial and federal government could even just collect taxes on all the money being laundered through this province it would be nice.

    (Edited…getting too far off topic which is Horgan/media).

    Now as to the complaints regarding pop ups. Yes, there were problems, but at least some people got vaccinated, which is better than none being vaccinated. So take your pick, no vaccines for those people or a poorly organzied event. Yes, I would have been better had it been run more effectively but not everything is perfect in this life and some of the complainers, what have you ever done which was a resounding success?

    Do not expect perfection from your government, regardless of the party. they all screw up at some time. Dealing with this pandemic is hard for all the politicians and government workers. Its in addition to their regular duties. No one sets out to screw up. The people working on this pandemic are trying their best. Not all efforts are successful but you could be living in countries where there has been not too much of an effort put out or just didn’t have the money to deal with the pandemic–yes, no taxes on the ultra rich and corrupt politicians.

    Israelis from my calculations pay more in taxes than Canadians, well at least those in the $200K range. Canada, 29%, Israel 35%. That is perhaps why Israel was able and willing to pay $50 a shot for their vaccines. (O.K. I”m not a math expert and I did this roughly and I expect BMCQ who does international business will correct me if I’m wrong.)

  51. 13 says:

    Horgan blew it one single event does not….. In the same post your include the Liberals in Ottawa as doing their best So trudeau has had a few faux pas from playing dressup taking holiday bribes, SNC scandal, JWR disaster, and many more. So do you think “Ah Justin Trudeau just a dozen single events do not……
    BTW Horgans gaffes go way past one

  52. Gilbert says:

    Stu,

    You must know that there are many factors that contribute to the number of coronavirus cases and deaths in each province. To simply look at numbers and conclude that one government is better than another is simplistic.

    If two provinces were identical in every way (a purely hypothetical situation), it would be easy to compare. Though BC and Alberta are neighbours, it’s safe to say that BC receives far more cooperation and attention from the federal government. That’s not surprising because Premier Horgan and Prime Minister Trudeau are both socialists.

    Let’s not forget, either, that BC has an ocean and thus only one neighbouring province. Alberta, on the other hand, has two. Regarding population and population density, Alberta has two rather large cities, Edmonton and Calgary, but British Columbia has one, Vancouver.

    Another obvious difference between provinces is the people themselves. It’s safe to say that some provinces have more seniors and some have healthier populations than others. BC, a province with a large population of Asian descent, may have a population that is relatively healthy compared to that of Alberta.

    We often have people who are far more disciplined in one province than another. It may also be the case that the medical experts, local politicians and authorities, police officers, vaccine suppliers and others in the fight against the virus do a better job in one province than another. Remember that it is not just the premier who needs to defeat the virus. It is an entire team.

    We also have lockdowns that in many cases merely delay cases rather than prevent them. You may think Alberta needs far more restrictions and lockdowns, but as you know, restrictions and lockdowns also cause problems. They include domestic abuse, depression, suicide and unemployment. Obviously, goverments need to make many considerations before they impose all kinds of restrictions to contain the coronavirus.

    The situation is not black and white. Simply looking at numbers is insufficient. Surely you agree that it’s far more complicated than that.

    (Response: Some really good points! And read my new blog …going online Sunday: sure to provoke good discussion of who’s really to blame for the current Covid spread in BC! h.o)

  53. Not Sure says:

    OK I promised to step aside. The discussion is becoming bubble oriented so there is really no point in continuing. Just an observation.

    I appreciate Gilbert’s posts even though I tend to disagree with him more often than not but he is absolutely correct when he says looking at the raw numbers is too simplistic. And I also think that Stu agrees with him. Stu was just using the numbers as a rebuttal to the politicizing of the criticisms directed at BC.

    Gilbert then lists a number of factors to consider. And all of those factors are important. But he frames it in a way that could be construed as excusing Alberta for having larger numbers than BC. He probably isn’t, but when he tells Stu that Stu is being too simplistic it can be construed that way.

    Now you know I love checking things. I am curious. So when Gilbert says we have to consider that Alberta has two large cities compared to BC’s one, I just have to look into this. Call it a compulsion.

    Vancouver is the third largest city in Canada followed by Calgary and Edmonton at 4th and 5th. Fact.

    Going down the list of most populous cities in Canada we get Victoria (12), Kelowna (20) Abbotsford (24) before reaching Red Deer (31). So what do we call a big city?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_population_centres_in_Canada

    As for density. Vancouver has the same population (approximately) as Calgary and Edmonton combined.

    Of the 10 most densely populated metropolitan areas in Canada, five are in BC. Vancouver is the most populous metropolitan area in Canada. New Westminster, North Vancouver, Victoria and White Rock are in the top ten. The rest are Montreal, Toronto and three areas surrounding Montreal. (Things may change in the next census but that’s all we got right now.)
    https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/170208/t001a-eng.htm

    I could go through some of his other factors but I haven’t got time. And this is not a criticism of Gilbert. He is right. This is complex. But it is even more complex than he is suggesting. Please keep that in mind when Harvey provokes discussion “of who’s really to blame for the current Covid spread in BC!” I am staying completely out of it.

    (Response: For someone who is “staying completely out of it” … you sure use a lot of words, in several postings, to do so! 🙂 Not that I mind: I enjoy your contributions to the discussions. Your other contention I would question is when you write “I love checking things”. My sense is you love DISPUTING things: so you don’t just “check”, I believe you earnestly look for ways and means to refute/challenge … which is a respected practice in empirical debate … and let’s keep it real, very easy to do in politics or with moving targets, like statistics. 🙂 h.o)

  54. Gilbert says:

    I want to add one more fact to consider when comparing provines like BC and Alberta. Alberta is more densely populated. It has about 6.8 people per square kilometre and BC has about 5.2 per square kilometre.

  55. BMCQ says:

    e.a.f.

    I have many many points I would like to make on taxes you mention and more but I am afraid ourHost would find me off topic .

    Gilbert

    Very interesting points along with some good common sense, you might cause some to think outside their “Ideological Straight Jackets” .

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