Canada/BC: Rule of Law No Longer Applies

The mobs have taken over. Canada is now a dictatorship … ruled by activists, anarchists … anyone willing to impose their will by shutting down roads, rail, bridges, jobs.

Certainly no need to worry that the country’s ELECTED “leaders” will hit back.

It’s no joke … or hyperbole.

Thousands of Canadians are already being impacted … freight services shut down illegally; passenger rail lines disrupted illegally; propane, agricultural products illegally prevented from getting to markets; thousands of jobs already impacted illegally; and, Canada’s consumers/food chain/grocery stores are already starting to feel the impact of all the illegal blockades.

And the governments … municipal, provincial and federal … FAIL to step in, step up … and stop it.

Except appeal to the activists, anarchists, terrorists to relent.

Or seek useless pieces of paper the mobs mock, spit on and disregard. Without ANY substantive consequences.

Disgraceful!

Don’t our ELECTED “leaders” know or understand that even agreeing to negotiate with terrorists … let alone caving in to their blackmail tactics … will only increase their demands, encourage more and other such tactics and strengthen their powers???

Radicals now know they can now seize property …. from parks to ports to pipeline routes and even roads and bridges, and exercise real power in Canada … not through the ballot box … but through social disruption, shutting down service’s and crippling working people, their jobs, the economy.

Clearly, the rule of law in Canada is optional.

Or no longer applies.

Harv Oberfeld

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34 Responses to Canada/BC: Rule of Law No Longer Applies

  1. D. M. Johnston says:

    Dead on, the “rule of law” is dead as the DoDo bird.

    We have now, rule by anarchy; rule of the mob; rule of subversion and our so called leaders wax and wane with each poll, worried how they will look.

    APPEASEMENT NEVER WORKS!

    Dane Geld, no, failed miserably. Well how about Neville Chamberlain’s 30 September 1938 speech, “Peace in our time”? Well a year later world war 2 was in full progress.

    The Mayor of Vancouver, coward is he, disappeared, gone, nowhere to be seen.

    Premier Horgan, even when the mob, mobbed his house, nope, nada, just a few angry words and then nothing.

    Trudeau the Younger, absolutely nothing, but useless words, no action.

    We are living in very dangerous times; the UK just committed financial hari-kari with Brexit; the USA suffering from a slow motion coup d’etat may have its last election in 20202; pandemic; but in Canada, the weakest; most useless lot of politicians, elected at all levels of government is letting Canada die by the rule of the mob.

    All they seem to care about is cashing their monthly paycheck.

    Adios Canada, the great idea died, abetted by political cowardice, greed, and ignorance.

    P.S. Just a note. The anti subway types have seen how the mob shut down Broadway and are planning the same, but I wonder if the politicians supporting the ill planned scheme, will be so understanding; photo ops to be had, ribbons to be cut, etc., etc.
    in ..
    (Response: Police ARE now moving in on SOME illegal blockades … but watch what happens to any arrested. Likely little or nothing … thus encouraging them to do it again and again and again …. on this and also other issues. All three levels of Canadian government and our leaders have abandoned our previously highly respected rule of law principles for years now … and what we are enduring is the result … and all of us will pay an even higher price for that in the future unless rule of law is restored and ENFORCED! h.o)

  2. D. M. Johnston says:

    This is my fear and I do not think anyone is taking this seriously.

    Asymmetric warfare.

    Asymmetric warfare is war between belligerents whose relative military power differs significantly, or whose strategy or tactics differ significantly.

    Russia (and probably China) is doing this right now, Russia has meddled and still is in US politics and European politics and may have been the force leading Brexit. China, like ya!

    Canada, easy peasy with our lot in the clown car.

    Who is really pulling the stings on our present civil unrest?

    I think the first nations are waking up to the fact that outsiders are involved, when will Trudeau, Horgan or the that NDP carpetbagger in Vancouver?

    (Response: I don’t doubt that far left radicals in person and on line … maybe even Russian agents, especially on-line … are at work as part of or supporting/egging on the activists, agitators etc. But I suspect MOST of the trouble makers are not even sincere protestors concerned about the specific gas pipeline, but all-encompassing First Nations activists with much broader shakedown chaos as their objective, far left radicals and anarchists who protest anything and everything … carrying out illegal actions and disruptions … which makes it even more pathetic to see our “leaders” willing to talk/negotiate/cave in to their demands. h.o.)

  3. Rainclouds c says:

    What do you expect from the Fed Libs. morally superior clueless, useful idiots who apparently don’t understand basic economics. They have moved sharply to the left and continue to allow Gerald Butts to call the shots. the former head of the WWF and architect of the Ontario Hydro debacle. Behold, the largest sub national debt on the planet. I cant listen or watch our sanctimonious feckless prattling PM, nauseating. While he piles on more debt year after year……

    Negotiation phase ended quite a while ago (pre approval). After the fact Ragtag, delusional, extreme, minority positions held by self appointed moral superiors with puffed up opinions of their personal influence need to be quashed. Get the goods running, jail and sue for losses the malcontents who put up resistance. Check if they are drawing welfare/EI and cut them off. I am willing to cut some slack for 20 somethings participating in demonstrations, I have 0 patience for supposed adults in their 40/50/60 who ought to understand the rule of law and the political process. If you want change it’s called the ballot box. Your party not elected? Guess what? the majority don’t agree, suck it up and recognize that simple fact.

    (Response: Justin’s father was not the mot popular PM in Western Canada…BUT I’d bet HE would not bow and scrape and let terrorists blockade Canada’s ports, bridges, roads, rail, jobs for weeks! Trudeau, Horgam and Stewart have to develop backbones …or resign and call elections to see what the real working people, voters, think about their lack of action against the agitators, disrupters, law breakers. .ho)

  4. Gilbert says:

    I was no fan of Pierre Trudeau. He was far too left wing for me. But at least he knew how to enforce the law. He had no time for radical activists. Unlike his son, he was a leader.

  5. e.a.f. says:

    there is no need to be so hysterical. The rule of law still is operating in Canada, the U.S.A. perhaps not so much.

    The use of the word “mobs”, really get a grip. What we have is a few hundred protestors at various points across there country. No one has been murdered, no one has been lynched. Haven’t had buildings torched, or cars over turned, people shot, etc. No one has been put in the hospital.

    Using the word “terrorists” omg, where is your head at Harvey. You’ve covered enough news over the years to know what real terrorists look like. You do remember the German O.s don’t you, the guys who blew up jets on run ways, shoot people and threw them out of air planes. ISIS, Taliban, lynch mobs in the U.S.A. who went after African Americans, now those were terrorists. Terrorists were those people in the U.S.A who went around lynching African Americans or beating kids to death. What we have here in Canada are some protestors who have stopped trains, blowing up federal buildings, etc. Now upsetting the commerce of the country in this case, may be inconvenient but get a grip, its not the end of the world. No one has died.

    Crippling working people, oh really suddenly you and some others are concerned about working people. No one seems to care about other working people. Where was all the concern when the cod fishery collapsed or when the lumber industry took a dump in B.C. or for that matter when el gordo fired all those hospital cleaners–just tore up the contract like it was nothing–largest mass firing of women in Canadian history–9K of them, didn’t hear much about the rule of law then. haven’t heard much about the rule of law with the lawlessness of the money laundering in this province.

    this is a democratic country and people have the right to protest and that at times will cost others money, inconvenience others, but that is what protesting is about. If it doesn’t inconvenience anyone, what would be the point. Writing letters just doesn’t cut it some times.

    My take on it is, the Mohawks in Ontario are protesting not so much about what is going on in B.C. but what is going on in their territory.

    Comparing the protestors to China and/or Russia, is a “tad” extreme. But it is a democracy and every one is entitled to their opinion, just like the protestors. Do any of you think any one would have paid attention to the protestors if it had been played out they way you seem to want it played out? nicely, like a tea party a nice chat over a board room table, perhaps sign some papers, and “pledge” to do better. Not much has improved if you’re Indigenous. You still are treated like a second class citizen. From what I read here, its not like many of you get out much into the country around you to see how Indigenous people are treated by the cops, courts, their neighbours, co workers, …………. after all these years Grassy Narrow still hasn’t been cleaned up. .

    the thing about democracy is its a majority rule type thing, however, it ought not to be at the expense of the minority and that Rainclouds c is what you appear to be advocating. As to cutting people off of welfare, E.I. you don’t seem to want the government to adhere to the Constitution. In case you aren’t aware, those agencies have rules. some of them include privacy. People also have the right to their privacy when they protest. One government dept. isn’t just free to turn over information to another dep.t just because they feel like it or some one out there thinks they shouldn’t be in receipt of government funds. But if you want to talk cutting off government funds, I’d suggest we start with cutting the oil and gas industry from their $4.3 BILLION welfare package from us the tax payers, each and every year.

    Those in their 40, 50, 60s are protesting because experience has taught them talking and negotiating hasn’t gotten them where they need to be or where they ought to be. I remember the War in the Woods, Clayoquot Sound protests. Don’t remember exactly how many people were arrested but it was over 700 and two of the protestors were women in their late 70s, who went to jail. If memory serves me correctly one of the two elderly women caught pneumonia and died. they knew protesting was the only way to get what they felt was just and appropriate and in the end the environment in that area was saved.

    In my opinion: The protestors are not a mob. They are Not terrorists. The rule of law is working just fine in Canada. If you think it isn’t I can direct you to any number of countries where the rule of law doesn’t exist and you’ll know it. You will be arrested without charge, thrown in jail with out charge, you will be shot, you will be beaten, you will be raped, you will extorted, have your property taken away from you without compensation or have the President of your country will vilify jurors who found one of his friends guilty.

    (Response: The definition of terrorism: “the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” Sure looks like terrorism to me when a mob .. yes, a mob, (unelected, unappointed, undesignated militants and extremists, unofficially recognized in any way) … prevents totally innocent and uninvolved civilians from getting to work, doctors appointments, social gatherings or wherever they are heading by shutting down the Westcoast Express or disrupts VIA Rail in Quebec/Ontario , or by stopping/intimidating civilian travellers, buses and truckers on the Rainbow and Thousand Island bridges in Ontario or intimidates/interferes/prevents civilians just trying to get to work across bridges in Vancouver thousands of miles away from any pipeline etc etc . Or are they only “mobs” and “terrorists” when they are right wing extremists doing the same things? h.o.)

  6. helena handcart says:

    Here was another “terrorist” protest:
    “200 logging trucks expected to drive through Vancouver Wednesday to protest forestry job losses ” Organizers said they understand the rally will disrupt traffic, but it will highlight an issue that is near and dear to small-town British Columbians who are losing jobs in the forestry industry. I guess that some will say that it was a weak kneed government response from the Minister : Donaldson thanked the organizers for the protest, saying it “makes my job easier” by pushing the concerns to the forefront. Or maybe it just depends on whether or not it suits your own political viewpoint.

    One of the commenters calls for a change at the ballot box. Apparently unaware that the voters kicked the Conservatives to the kerb and elected ” morally superior clueless, useful idiots who apparently don’t understand basic economics” I wonder exactly who needs to suck it up.

    As for the continuing saga of the Wetsuwetn governance, I suggest that everyone read the BC Leg Hansard for Monday and note the comments of the MLA for Skeena, E. Ross. He makes very insightful comments and is extremely knowledgeable.

  7. DBW says:

    Good Grief! Now we are debating the definition of terrorism. “The use of violence and intimidation” hardly applies here. But that is just my opinion.

    Harvey, we know you like to be controversial. That’s why some of us are here. But in posts like this you are just begging to get the “liberal” spin from e.a.f. as well as the usual finger pointing Mensa Meggs, dithering Horgan, anarchist Eby Inept, Impotent, Preening, Prancing and Insufferable PM Justin response from BMCQ. Neither is particularly helpful.

    I am not in favour of illegal blockades particularly ones on one side of the country that have been erected in support of an issue on the other side. While my sympathies are with our Indigenous people, this kind of action may seem good in the short term but losing support from inconvenienced Canadians does not help long term.

    But when we talk about rule of law aren’t we forgetting the decades of refusing to right historical wrongs faced by our Indigenous People? I wish I had some kind of answer because our elected leaders seem at a loss. And I am not giving Indigenous leaders a pass either. We know the Indian Act needs to be replaced but with what? Indigenous leaders need to address that as well.

    Anyway Harvey, I have my popcorn at hand and I will enjoy reading about how far Canada has fallen into chaos and anarchy and how close we are to suffering the ravages of Visigoths and Vandals.

    (Responses: Protests are fine..when done at the place where the grieved action is being done or where the decision allowing it was made. But it is NOT acceptable … and it IS a terrorist act when militants, anarchists, self-appointed rulers deliberately target civilians …. interfere with their lives, stopping them from getting to their jobs, shutting down whole industries, robbing totally uninvolved people of their ability to earn money to pay their bills. h.o)

  8. John's Aghast says:

    I’m with you e.a.f.

  9. e.a.f. says:

    In the Globe and Mail, 21 Feb edition Andrew Coyne writes an article
    “When it comes to blockades, the rule of law is about more than rules or laws.” ‘

    “a small group of protesters …..erected a makeshift barricade at the CN Rail crossing in Edmonton,……By midday, an even smaller group of counter protesters converged on the site an dismantled the barricade, carrying its pieces off in a pickup truck.

    “Neither group was strictly speaking acting either inside or outside the law. No court injunction had been issued against the protestors at time the counterprotesters moved in, the latter committed no violence against the former. and yet it is plainly contrary to the norms of a society governed by law for private individuals either to forcibly block rail lines or to forcibly prevent others from blocking them…….

    It would appear that both sides are in need of a little refresher course in the rule of law, a defining characteristic of which is that it applies equally to all. On the left, the crisis has brought forth a flurry of essays on the theme of the rule of law as instrument of colonialist oppression, blaming it for everything from residential schools to the killing of Dudley George.

    But the merits of the rule of law, as a principle of government, are distinct from those of any particular law, or its applications. the rule of law is also represented by the string of landmark Supreme court rulings-Calder, Sparrow, Haida Nation, Tsihqot’in, Delgamuukaw, to name only a few–that have advanced Indigenous rights, as well as the constitutional documents going back to the Royal Proclamation of 1763 on which they are based. If you want the law’s protection, you also have to accept the law’s authority.

    But fuzziness on the rule of law would appear to be even more prevalent among its self-styled defenders on the right. I don’t just mean their tendency to prefer that it be selectively applied, depending on whether they sympathize with the aims of those defying it, a trait they share with the left-wing counterparts. I mean also Their cramped understanding of the rule of law’s foundations, as seen in the wide spread demands for immediate police action to dismantle the barricades as if the rule of law depended on no more than rule of law.

    For a law to have any meaningful chance of enforcement, it must enjoy the support or as least acquiescence of a substantial majority, whether of the population or sub-population. Without such consensus, all that will be achieved is to breed disrespect for the law — see: prohibition, past and present – or, worse, wholesale alienation of the minority from the majority…………….”

    “The rule of law, in short, cannot be divorced from its political-cultural underpinnings. the ways in which the legal and political sphere inform each other are often overlooked. at the time of the secession reference, for example, a great many voices, inside Quebec and out, denounced any attempt to bring the secession debate (until then dominated by airy separatist claims of a right to secede unilaterally) within the rule of law as futile or even dangerous. Secession, they insisted, cannot be considered as a legal question; it is entirely political. and then the clincher: What are you going to do, send in the army…………….”

    “Whatever the pretenses of its nationalists, Quebec is in most respects a modern North American society, much like any other: bourgeois, mortgage holding…….the vast majority of Quebeckers are simply not interest in revolutionary adventures.”

    “The same can not be said with certainty of many First nations. the conditions of life on too many reserves are so deplorable, the rate of improvement so slow, as to leave an important section of their people open to persuasion that they have nothing to lose–that their interests are not necessarily best safeguarded within the law but may require defying it, or indeed that Canadian law does not apply to them. For now, that section is probably a small minority; the minority within that minority willing to use violence, smaller still. but that could change. And a confrontations with the police–not only at one point on the tracks, but at multiple points, across the country–would be the surest way to change it.”

    it is this which is of concern to me, who fires the first shot, will it be the military, the RCMP, the local Police, the protestors, some one who is upset their shipment didn’t come in as planed, a racist organization–we remember what happened at Charlottsville and the same players are in Canada–we have them in the reserves, in the military. No one’s life is worth any of this. It then comes down to for me, is that pipe line, that rail way blockade, that barricade, that missed day at work worth some else loosing their life? For me it isn’t.

    The political climate in North America has changed a lot since Oka, Ipperwash, Gustafsen Lake/Ts’Pelen. Those who oppose the Indigenous People doing what they feel is right want them gone and immediately. To safely come to some sort of accommodation, things will have to go slow or its going to cost us a lot of money and perhaps lives.. Gustafsen Lake/Ts’Pelen involved 400 RCMP officers. No one seems to care about that money but sure care if they loose 5 minutes or 5 dollars due to a blockade. We have first world problems with this stuff. One person complained the blockade made her late picking up her child from work and it cost her a $100 in late fees. Didn’t see a lot trying to help her out with that fine. Now others who are blocking may say, well at least you have a job and day care. I can’t get my child into day care because there isn’t any in my area or the jobs don’t pay enough to pay for child care. I don’t have decent housing, the doctor is a couple of hundred miles from where I live, etc.

    A lot of this in my opinion is a difference between first world and second world problems. We need to come to an accommodation and this time it might be better if its we in the Non Indigenous community.

    It is almost amuzing to hear people say the elected council and Chiefs have determined……….. and that is democracy. You know it wasn’t that long ago that I was hearing those Chiefs and councils just take all the federal money and spend it on themselves and their families and supporters. remember when John Duncan then harper’s minister of Aboriginal Affairs place the Appawaskat band in receivership
    End result, the court ruled, the council and chief had done nothing wrong. they simply hadn’t been sent enough money by Harper and Duncan. It would be interesting to see what side the anti Indigenous protester types were on when we had the Appawaskat situation. Yes, and after the Chief/Band, won the court case, following all the legal rules and the rule of law, John Duncan, having lost the case, decided he would not sign off on 16 new desperately needed new houses being purchased. He had delayed the signing until the court case was determined and when he and harper lost, no houses for a community who were desperate for them. When you look at that rule of law thing, think about how well it hasn’t worked for Indigenous People who followed the government’s game rules.

    (Response: Talk about mixing apples and oranges! There is nothing inconsistent with respecting ELECTED indigenous leaders, while criticizing any failings in their spending habits. It’s not just First Nations leaders or politicians who waste funds, reward friends and relations etc. … but that doesn’t change the fact that unless and until they lose office, they ARE the legitimate representatives of the offices they hold. h.o.)

  10. ISLAND LOOKOUT says:

    Excellent piece, Harvey.

    I wish Justin had the grit his old man did (“Just watch me.”) and actually guided the rest of us instead of taking selfies with his brand new chia pet in front of Rideau Hall.

    Trudeau needs to get these blockades pulled down now. People are hurting and they are not being served even though they pay stupendous income taxes. Awful.

    Today’s Question Period in the House was a pathetic whingeing experience to view. Have the Liberals and NDP lost it or what? The Tories showed some jam but not enough to make a difference. What’s happened to our Ruling Class?

    Right now Canada has no future, as you so aptly explained above.

    We have been hog-tied by the Useful Canadian Idiots, who’ve been doing the bidding of large American-based environmental groups for the last 20 years and this is the result.

    Those groups are not so much concerned about our environment as they are about keeping our resources safely in the ground for later exploitation by the masters of the American Empire, Corporate America, the US environmentalists’ paymaster.

    Given the increasingly parlous state of Communist China I wonder whether the Yanks will move in on us sooner rather than later. China is falling apart. PetroChina, a participant in the Coastal GasLink project, is importing less Saudi crude oil because its refinery workers in China are too sick to show up for work. How long before PetroChina abandons BC?

    A message to the protesters in BC and elsewhere in Canada. If the Yanks come for our stuff they’ll simply show up. Just try and stop them.

    Be careful what you wish for, picketers. Because when Big Corporate America rolls into town the US environmentalists will run, your pay cheques will vanish and you’ll get what’s coming…not what you wish for.

    (Response: I don’t worry about the Americans showing up and just taking our resources: won’t happen. They would do it, if they decided to do it, through corporate ownership and political/trade pressures on out governments. Bur that’s not our current problem: the BIG threat to Canada is insurrection from within: where unelected activists, anarchists, eco-terrorists are being allowed …even encouraged by weak responses/politicians … to just take over properties, block access to sites, shut down entire roads, rails, bridges, even ports to blackmail and hold society hostage to get what they want. For the sake of the future of our democracy, they MUST NOT be allowed to succeed …or what we see happening now will just be the beginning! h.o)

  11. Rainclouds says:

    Regarding my comment to cut off protesters from Social assistance. Anyone enjoying the largesse of the Canadian taxpayer have an obligation to uphold their end of the bargain and look for gainful employment. Given the unemployment rate in BC is at an all time low BUT apparently protesters are special. BTW there are mechanisms in place to report cheaters for BC Welfare and EI and if you are protesting and drawing public funds, you. are. cheating the taxpayer. and breaking the law, but I guess that’s not important.

    Regarding the Cons being “kicked to the kerb” last election. PC’S had the majority of the popular vote in 2019 so perhaps revisit your assertions. Rather remarkable the complete 180 The Liberals did in 1 day. from, “we must negotiate peacefully” to the next day “the blockades must come down NOW “. So tell me. exactly who had to suck it up recently? Hint,The dithering globe trotting PM more interested in bribing Africans to get a seat on the UN security Council. The majority of Canadians (over 60%) think endangering the population and shutting down a country by a ragtag bunch of professional malcontents who simply will not listen to anyone is the way forward.

  12. Gilbert says:

    The voters chose the Liberals to lead our country, but I’m sure many regret their decision. It would be great if we could have an election now. I doubt Justin Trudeau would win.

  13. Barry says:

    The police act when their political masters are at the receiving end of protests.

    Example A) Remember the APEC meeting at UBC in the ’90’s? How the police were quick to arrest people who were peacefully protesting and just holding signs. The inquiry later determined that the RCMP had effectively turned the site into a “charter of rights free zone.”

    Example B) The G2o meeting in Toronto a couple of years ago. The police used a technique called “kettling” to confine protesters and even scooped up people who were nearby but were having nothing to do with the protests. Remember the sight of all those temporary cages set aside for holding people. Even journalists just doing their jobs were arrested.

    So I come to the conclusion the cops are more than capable of acting when those who sign their paychecks are at the receiving end, but for the average public who are greatly inconvenienced, it’s “well we respect the right to protest and we want to keep the peace.”

    Hypocrisy, thy name is police.

  14. BMCQ says:

    DBW

    Although you and I may disagree on much I believe we do however agree on what is quite often referred to by many of us on this Blog including the Canadian Prime Minister
    as “Rule of Law” Issues, we might though disagree somewhat on the Level and Degree of actual Enforcement of that “Rule of Law”.

    Personally speaking I mostly Draw the Line when “Law Breaking” actually affects the “Freedom of Movement” of Hard Working Canadians who already each and every day endure quite possibly an hour and a half each way to and from work each and every day for 50 weeks each and every day they work where that commute could and does double because of Illegal Road Blocks, Train Delays, Transit Blockages or anything else that might take place including Sky Train, Ferries, etc. etc. .

    Then of course there is the Illegal Blocking of Goods and Services, People being kept from important appointments, School Children having difficulty getting to school or extra curricular events, Pensioners being delayed along with the fact that some might not even get home because of West Coast Train Stoppage .

    You I understand live in a less spread out easier to travel Rural Area where you might not face any of the mentioned but please consider what people who never carried out any action against any Group now or in the past must endure just because a Fringe Group of People with many different complaints many fictitious choose to act out upon .

    Please put yourself in their position, just for a minute .

    As it has been widely and wisely stated by many up the page, people are not against Legal, Ethical, Responsible Protesting in appropriate places but come on, where is the Common Sense in this .

    That then leads to a question and I would you think about this seriously before categorizing it as sarcasm or an attack on the Canadian Prime Minister .

    In All Honesty, can you tell me I am wrong when I honestly describe the Canadian Prime Minister as Hypocritical, Shallow, Preening, Prancing, Inept, Impotent, Imbecilic, Dithering, Disengaged, Dishonest, Pompous, and in fact a “Failed” Prime Minister ?

    I am not posing the question to aggravate you I really just want to know how you think I am incorrect in my conclusion and why do so many Canadians agree with me .

    Then just for good measure I would ask this, would you honestly Vote for Canadian Prime Minister again ?

    The Canadian Spring is soon upon us, the weather is improving, there are many more Major Infrastructure Projects proposed and beginning right across the country if the Prime Minister, Butts, their Cabinet, the Federal NDP, Provincial Governments, especially the B.C. Horgan/Meegs/Eby NDP Government the RCMP, Municipal Police, Municipal Governments, and the Judiciary do not act sensibly, maturely, responsibly, firmly, and immediately Canada and Canadians are in real threat of facing Anarchy, Lawlessness, and a faltering economy .

    The Anarchy now taking place right across Canada is no different than the Violent,Lawless Anarchist Terrorist ANTIFA Movement that is inflicting great harm in the USA .

    DMJ

    To suggest that the “Soon to be Free” United Kingdom was/is mistaken to follow through with a huge Majority Conservative and “BREXIT” Victory as committing ”Hari Kari” on the Economy could not be further from the truth, look at what is already taking place in the UK Economy, the Currency, the Teal Estate, the emerging Trade with the USA, thevEU are already capitulating, the U.K. now has a Border, Control over Migration, Immigration, control of Goods and Services, and there are already several examples of $ Billions of Euro Investment and Businesses planning and considering re locating from all over the EU . The facts speak for themselves .

    Unlike Canada the United Kingdom now has Leadership and that is supported by the fact that Millions of Former UK Labour Voters Voted for BoJo and the Conservative Party .

    As I stated up the page, only a day ago Tock Tesources abandoned a Major Project that would have provided over 3,000 Good Paying Jobs because of Pathetically Poor Leadership right across the Country and there will be more to follow, just watch .

    Canada is quickly becoming a Pariah to Foreign Investment of all types when we should in fact be positioning ourselves to compete with the U.K. for opportunities of EU Investors who are already abandoning the “Failed” EU and seeking “Safe Harbour” to te-locate Business and Investments that could Employ Canadians .

    We cannot allow what amounts to only a few dozen Anarchists to cripple the Economy, Canadian “Rule of Law”, damage our Reputation, cause Dissension and Division amongst our Population, and in fact create an Unstable Future for decades to come, who would invest here ?

    There is really not much that divides us, why can we not just simply use Common Sense and put Canada first ?

  15. BMCQ says:

    Barry – Gilbert – Rainclouds

    Excellent Posts, how would you expect any Federal Liberal, Federal NDP, or B.C. Provincial Supporter to agree with you, you have more “Common Sense” than most could appreciate .

    It is Long Past time for Police, the Politicians, Prosecution, and the Judiciary to take firm action .

    If one wished to stop this Anarchy over night all we would need to see is the Judiciary Convict only two or three of the Anarchists for a Criminal Offense which would give them a permanent Criminal Conviction Record, all of the nonsense being discussed would cease OVER NIGHT . Yes, two or three Criminal Convictions would Heal All .

    Yes it might be a Misdemeanor but………………

    I ask everyone and anyone that participates or lurks on this Blog to read the Post of Barry two or three up the page, he has put all in a Nut Shell .

    The RCMP, the Municipal police PC SJW Politicians, and the Judiciary should “Hang Their Heads in Shame” .

    Rainclouds also makes very valid points and those Politicians and the rest already mentioned should pay close attention to what he states, they could all learn from the content, there is nothing like good old fashioned common sense .

  16. helena handcart says:

    Well boys and girls, it seems that we have discovered a new word and must use it as often as we can no matter the circumstances. ANARCHY!! (Cue the martial music). How about PROTEST. That has seemed to work for us in the past. On Monday, I got up; drove to Whistler, had a nice day skiing, great fish and chips in Squamish, drove home over the LG bridge and settled into the apartment. Didn’t see a lot of ANARCHY at all. Mind you, I was in Montpellier early last year and the Gilet Jaune were protesting. Now that was real anarchy.
    When the protesters blocked Cambie and Broadway last week, I just drove a couple of blocks out of my way and got to my destination a couple of minutes later. not really a big deal.
    Here is a plea to all of you… these are supposed to be comments and not your Doctoral Dissertation. I’m sure that HO has better things to do than moderate us lot. If we do not police ourselves, KIR will go the same way as Tsakumis’ blog and fade into irrelevance.

    (Response: You assess the anarchists’ actions from quite a selfish point of view. While you try to downplay the impact of such actions, you somehow seem to have conveniently forgotten the hundreds of millions of dollars impact these anarchist terrorist acts have had on our rail traffic, passengers, ports etc … and “NO” the railways and cargo ships can’t just “go around” as you did.Anarchy always starts small … but it is a cancer: if it is allowed … to fester and grow …by weak, spineless politicians who themselves don’t uphold our laws … we will end up with a society where extremists KNOW there is little or no real consequences for using disruption and shutting down of major parts of the economy to force acquiescence to their demands … so there will be more and larger such actions. The perpetrators must be punished … for the sake of democracy and maintaining a stable society. h.o)

  17. e.a.f. says:

    Harvey, your comment to me, which includes a phrase, “they are the legitimate representatives of the offices they hold”. Now I’ve concluded you mean the Indigenous elected politicians. There in may lie the problem. Many people are of the opinion the Chiefs and council are not the legitimate representatives because their positions were created by an illegitimate act of parliament–the Indian Act.

    The Indian Act is the Act of Parliament passed in 1876. At that time Parliament was ruled by white men. In 1876 no person of Indigenous back ground was permitted to vote and neither were women. The Act was meant to be in effect until Indigenous People were “assimilated” into European descent back grounds. That didn’t work so well.

    Now we are some time down the road and every Indigenous Nation has a different idea of what should happen to the Act., including keeping it. In 1969 there was an attempt to change it, but that didn’t work out so well either.

    You may advocate “punishing” the protestors but it will not solve the problem. For many Indigenous People they believe they have been punished their whole lives for being Indigenous. Protestors will continue to protest, either because they’re “professional”–i.e. a full time job or as full time as they want it to be. (it takes a lot of energy to change the world.) or they are of the opinion they have a grievance against the government.

    All of my comments have been fun and poking some of the others is entertaining. We do have a problem in this country and it will not be solved on this blog or in the next hundred years. There is too much money and power at stake.

    Burning the rail way track are not part of what I consider appropriate action nor is the throwing of stones at the rail trains. Yes, folks I do have a line. Why the Hereditary Chiefs decided to travel to Mohawk territory, I have my ideas, but it didn’t help the cause. the Mohawks haven’t helped the cause. Protesting can effect change and is useful in our society, just as it was a hundred years ago and yes some times you have to inconvenience people. The protests would have been better served had they been more focused and had established leaders who could have spoken on behalf of the protestors.

    (Response: You make a BIG mistake when you say I advocate punishing the “protestors” . Not true. I respect the right of people to legally protest: as I stated in an earlier comment …at the site of the disputed project, at the offices of the companies involved and at the offices of the governmental/agency decision-makers. But that is NOT what the anarchists, eco-terrorists have done: they have I believe illegally disrupted/impacted/injured thousands of innocent people’s lives; illegally blocked railways, ports, bridges, roads…. and THEY should be arrested, charged, and punished for doing so. Certainly NOT excused, encouraged or rewarded! h.o.)

  18. DBW says:

    BMCQ, you can say whatever you want with your cut and paste adjectives about Trudeau. I don’t care. I just don’t think it does any good.

    And I can’t vote for him AGAIN because I haven’t voted for him yet. However, I am an NDP supporter which in your books means I have no common sense. So yeh, way to shut down discussion.

    Look and this goes for Harvey as well, this is not as simplistic as we would like it to be. e.a.f. makes that clear. Sure we can arrest the protesters. In fact we did two days ago and the protests have continued and in some cases escalated.

    To be clear, I am not supporting illegal activities. It is long past time to take the barricades down and stop interfering with the transportation routes around the country. The point has been made. And if the protesters refuse to move then by all means arrest them.

    But arresting and jailing protesters will do nothing if the underlying problem is not addressed.

    Personally I am optimistic about the outcome. Indigenous leaders (business as well as political) know what’s at stake. Governments want a positive outcome. That’s why I find screaming Anarchy and Terrorism and pointing fingers at whoever you don’t like (and that goes for all sides) counter productive.

    (Response: Again…it’s NOT protestors who I have a problem with… and Canada provides many protections for legitimate, legal protests and protestors. It’s illegal blockaders, bridge, port, commuter disrupters. anarchists, agitators and terrorists I abhor. And I’m not sure why so many on the left have such toleration ….even encouragement …for such law breakers. h.o)

  19. G. Barry Stewart says:

    Video was circulated today, of a small group of idiots in Ontario stacking pallets beside a moving train and lighting them on fire. That, clearly, was not peaceful protest.

    They are lucky a pallet didn’t rub up against the train and fling it back at them. I HOPE they have been caught by police and that the video evidence will help convict them. If not, perhaps their next stunt will be to stretch a tug-of-war rope across there tracks. No arrests will be needed, just some coroners’ wagons.

    (Response: This is NOT legal legitimate protest: this IS terrorist activity … which MUST be stopped/punished. h.o.)

  20. BMCQ says:

    DBW

    I have friends and family that are Teachers, Transit Employees, Health care Workers, and others we might normally consider Federal, Provincial NDP, Federal Liberal, Left of centre Municipal supporters, not all of these mentioned but for the most part . I find it interesting that Private sector Unions seem to lean more Conservative for the most part, that is of great interest to me .

    The Friends and Relatives of mine that normally or almost always vote Left of Centre seem to agree with Harvey BMCQ, and most others on this Blog that consider the actions by the Protesters as Anarchy and Terrorism .

    Harvey and several others here including yourself I think all state the same thing, Legal Protests are fine and OK, as long as “Rule of Law” is maintained and respected .

    You agree with that very thing I think . We, most of us including you seem to be on the same side regarding the Illegal Protests, why would we not arrest, charge, and convict so called Protesters when they Break the Law and cause so much trouble and in fact in some cases as pointed out by Barry the Protesters carry out Terrorism and Anarchy and actually endanger their own lives and the lives of Hard Working People on a Train, Transit, Roadways, and any other Legal Activity that Hard Working person happens to be doing which might even be travelling to and from work, even travelling home to see their 6 Year Old that needs to be in Bed by 7 PM .

    I stand by my call to Arrest, Charge, and Convict just a handful of the Protesters and we will soon see a Stand Down, no one wants a criminal Record, and many of these deserve just that . We would then create a deterrent, is that not why Laws were first put into Legislation ? Is that not the only reason some pay Income Tax, obey Traffic Laws, do not commit other Crimes ?

    As to people like me and others that “Scream Anarchy and Terror” ?

    I am not a big believe in Polling as I now believe Methodology is flawed and that has been proven many times, Hello BoJo, BREXIT, POTUS TRUMP, Premier Dix, and the Second Term of Premier Christy, but I am very confident that the Majority of Canadians like Harvey and perhaps you and many others are sympathetic to Legal Protesting are against what is taking place as of the past few years, we must have Law and Order, people need to be allowed to go about their daily routines .

    G. Barry and I might not always agree but Barry is an individual that can see both sides of any issue and he has a good understanding of what we might call Fair Play and Balance, I respect that and I believe he Stands with Protesters on many issues but he wants Laws to be Enforced and he wants Hard Working People to get to work .

    Look, I do not like PM Justin, I believe he is shallow, dishonest, a Charlatan, and NOT WORTHY but I would never ever take to the streets and take part in Anarchist, Terrorist, Dangerous, or Disrespectful Activities, that might inconvenience others, that just shows I do not care about or respect my fellow Citizens .

    I believe the B.C. NDP Horgan Government is a Disgrace, Dishonest, and Governs by Politics and not Fairness but I would not think of setting up a Tent on the B.C. Legislature . That would be Illegal, a threat to Fellow citizens that work there, and it is an attack on Democracy .

    As to the words I use to describe the Prime Minister and a few others who I have come to Disrespect Greatly ?

    Please explain to me just how serious is that compared to those that are Blocking intersections, Mission Trains, Setting Fire to Trains and Tracks, Endangering Fellow Canadians, Slashing Tires of RCMP, Damaging Equipment of Corps, STopping Workers, Politicians and the Public from entering the B.c. Legislature, and so much more .

    And I am a Bad person because I call the Prime Minister Arrogant, and suggest he has a Messiah Complex ?

    Again, please honestly tell me you actually disagree with any of the names I Brand the PM with . I am not asking you if I am rude, I am asking you to tell me he is none of what I state . There is a big difference .

    Remember DBW, the Weather is just barely beginning to improve, we have a very “Long Hot Summer” ahead of us and you know what they say,

    “UNDRIP” !!

    You have not seen anything yet .

    Barry

    Thanks, I would expect nothing less from you .

    Unfortunately the Police, Prosecutors, and the Judiciary will be no different than the Politicians, they will mumble, fumble, stumble, hide under their desks and it will continue, we will get nothing but Lip Service and Platitudes and talk of Reconciliation.

    In the meantime the Moms and Dads who do not get home to tuck their Sad and Disappointed Little Ones to Bed will just keep working, continue to pay tax, and obey the “Rule of Law’ .

    How Bloody Sad is that ?

  21. e.a.f. says:

    My apologies Harvey. It wasn’t you I was referring to, it was some one else who suggested protestors be punished. there was also a line about removing protestors form government forms of income, etc..

    I don’t know if burning pallets under a train is a terrorist activity, but it sure is stupid and may be in contravention of the Railway Safety Act. The way to deal with that in my opinion, is to wait for the individuals to go home and have the appropriate authorities arrest them there and be very clear its the Railway Safety Act violations that they are being arrested for, if that is possible.

    The Premier of Quebec is doing no one any favours either with his comments regarding there may be AK whatevers on one of the reserves in Quebec and thus they can’t send in the police. omg, are he and the Surete a bunch of snow flakes or what. If there truly are AK whatevers, then they ought to be taken from the owners. They aren’t exactly legal in Canada. On the other hand, who says they have them. He is simply in my opinion, repeating rumours. But then the Premier of Quebec, is a tad on the racist side, in my opinion. He’d most likely like nothing better than an all out war with the Indigenous People, they are an impediment to his dream/nightmare of a separate Quebec, just like immigrant groups or people of any group that isn’t what they call “pure wool” or polyester. On the other hand the drug dealers have them and no one seems to be doing much about that either. Now there are a bunch of terrorists in this country, fent. dealers, but I stray.

    Harvey, some of us on the left have more tolerance for illegal protests because we have seen over the decades that some times they work. Do you think women in this country would have the right to control their own bodies if not for Dr. Morgentalier and his “illegal” activities.

    if you arrest “illegal” protestors and take them to trial and they are acquitted, you know where that leaves the judicial system. Some times its just better to let it go. It wouldn’t be the first time some lefty trade unionist had some thing go to court or arbitration and won.

    A lot of chatter is going on about the money corporations and people are loosing due to these protests (so what) Not many seemed to care much when people died from inadequate health care or the government spending less on Indigenous children on reserves than on non Indigenous children, not on reserves. What did that cost in dollars, potential, money, etc.? Its been my experience there is much more outrage when business looses money than individuals. When I look around, things are still doing fairly fine in this country. All that cargo will start to move at some point in time and everything will get back to whatever normal there is. Of course then we might be hit with CO VID 19. Wonder how people will respond when Indigenous people on reserves don’t get the health care they need compared to what some of us will get in more urban areas.

    Now as to who participates in the illegal actions frequently depends upon whether action is taken against them. We know former P.M. Harper passed 8 pieces of federal legislation that he was told contravened the Constitution and 8 times he lost in the Supreme Court of Canada. some believed the P.M. and his government were committing illegal action. they were correct. But not every one can afford to mount a Constitutional challenge, like that nice lawyer in Toronto, but they do have the ability to protest and disrupt things every so well.

    Nothing about any of this is uncomplicated. Some of the anger goes back over a 100 years. Some of it is due to the sense of no change will ever come.

  22. Leila Paul says:

    eaf: you have a talent for understatement based on what is IMO your cherished delusions. You refuse to call incitement and terrorism what it is. As long as those enacting and escalating the monstrosity that might result are acting out the idoleology you espouse, then it is only “stupid”

    It is not stupid for that is when someone does a limited act with little or no forethought and it causes minor inconveniences. When acts are orchestrated, contrived and grow in ways where freelancers can act out their aggressive anger – then that is not merely stupid. It’s potentially life threatening and could instigate reactions of vengeance. And then it all spins out of any semblance of reasonable human behavior.

    You really don’t think setting fire to pallets under a train is not risking human life? Did any of them question if any human being, no one was on the train? If it causes monetary damages, does that not affect our entire economy and how investors view this country.

    If not for the coronavirus, global attention might have time to view us and judge this country – as a place held hostage by thugs, terrorists, anarchists, or just naughty people doing stupid things. Call it whatever you like but the ramifications will be dire. And you will not be among those who benefit – because no one will.

    Shame should be a shroud on anyone who defends these disgraceful activities – regardless of how they are described.

    How this unfolds and when it is finally concluded, the damages will be extreme. We will be a country divided with already outdated and absurd grievances ballooning into seething rage that will want some kind of punishment on those who instigated, and then encouraged and nurtured the crazed chapters of this vile saga.

    You are wise to use an alias. All of you who support and seem almost gleeful at what is enveloping the innocents. For there are millions of innocents in this country who had no role in whatever “first nations” nurture as grievances. Those innocents too will suffer even though they had nothing to do with the original grievances of the “indigenous” peoples.

    As for the deprivation endured by the indigenous peoples, as they like to perceive themselves, everyone was once indigenous to someplace before invaders and occupiers came and pushed them out. It is a repetitive theme in the eons of human history.

    Those who like to see themselves as unique and supremely entitled not to suffer any deprivations are vile. But many of them are merely “useful idiots” as the Marxist-Leninists enjoyed calling them in the past. Today, the fact masses of people are willing to become useful idiots, or usefully stupid, will eventually suffer even more for what they’re doing.

    But the fact seemingly intelligent people on this blog justify these activities makes me ashamed that they could have grown up in the Canada we once had – the envy of so many in this world – that they watch it being unravelled and defend the actions.

    Defending these events is not stupid – it is far worse than those who are doing the activities. The actions of the rioters may be inflaming their behavior. But those who watch (hopefully only from the outside and are not engaged in feeding the crazed frenzy) are perhaps even more “stupid”.

    There is a book titled “Lament for a Nation”. I wonder what the author would say today.

    What is happening in this formerly civilized and orderly nation transcends the absurd and outdated grievances of “first nations”.

    What an arrogance to think themselves “first” anything – other than as the dupes who risk bringing down a civilized country.

  23. Art Smith says:

    Hi Harvey, I just watched a clip of a policeman telling a reporter to move along and not bother the protesters, in the name of public safety, as the railroad tracks behind him are burning.
    Our politicians are meeting with the chiefs, on the chiefs’ terms.
    We have so-called national icons (Suzuki) cheering Teck’s decision to pull out of the oil sands.
    Watched on the news as the police escorted the protesters to the Pat Bay Hwy. and directed Joe Lunchbucket to detour around them.
    Read in the paper that the Liberal gov’t funnelled $183,000 to an anti-pipeline group (Pembina) without having to go through bidding, as all but one contract was under $25,000.
    We have those in academia, supposedly our brightest, urging Students to join the protests.
    Is this a Great Country or what?

    (Response: Too bad our leaders have led us to this …a society where our values turned on its head. Time to get back to some common sense and stop encouraging law-breaking. h.o)

  24. Leila Paul says:

    CRIMINAL CODE OF CANADA Section 175(1)

    SECTION WORDING 175(1)

    Every one who (a) not being in a dwelling-house, causes a disturbance in or near a public place, (i) by fighting, screaming, shouting, swearing, singing or using insulting or obscene language, (ii) by being drunk, or (iii) by impeding or molesting other persons, (b) openly exposes or exhibits an indecent exhibition in a public place, (c) loiters in a public place and in any way obstructs persons who are in that place, or (d) disturbs the peace and quiet of the occupants of a dwelling-house by discharging firearms or by other disorderly conduct in a public place or who, not being an occupant of a dwelling-house comprised in a particular building or structure, disturbs the peace and quiet of the occupants of a dwelling-house comprised in the building or structure by discharging firearms or by other disorderly conduct in any part of a building or structure to which, at the time of such conduct, the occupants of two or more dwelling-houses comprised in the building or structure have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied, is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. 
    ________________
    A summary conviction is not a serious as an indictable offense but these “protests” if not terrorist inspired riots, do DISTURB THE PEACE and are part of the Criminal Code.

    So let’s pretend the rioters are not terrorists or anarchists. At best, they are criminals.

    The fact that these activities (whatever one wants to call them) do result in victims being adversely affected, means any police with authority in these matters could have and should have acted to remove those disturbing the peace.

    A peaceful protest does not cause damage to victims or to society’s peace, orderly functions, nor to its economic activities.

    The purpose of a protest is supposedly to inform people of something that is of interest to them as well as being of prime importance to the protestors.

    In truth, if I ever had sympathy for “first nations” that has now completely been replaced with contempt, although I still respect peaceful individuals whose heritage might include being of an earlier migrant nation or tribe or ethnicity.

    Law abiding citizens, especially taxpayers, have essentially contracted with the government to ensure police provide security and protect the public from unjustifiable violations of the peace.

    The same blather has been going on too long.

    Why have MPs not held a vote of non-confidence in the federal government?

    Why have BC MLAs, who respect civil society (few though they may be) not initiated their own methods of holding the BC government accountable for not using all its powers – provided by the people in a democracy.

    Why has the supposedly authoritarian Premier Ford not asked the Ontario legislature to take action on issues within its jurisdiction?

    Are we in a beauty pageant or a popularity contest where government officials rush off to meet with their cosmetic surgeons and make-up or hairdresser experts – but utterly neglect their legal duties and obligations to the public? Do they have no spine to take action that might portray them as less than submissive?

    Are all our leaders like the “Pardoner” in Chaucer’s the “Pardoners Tale”.

    The Canterbury Tales were oral tales from approx 700 years ago, later in written form. Strange that in earlier forms of authoritarian rule, ordinary people could narrate tales and expect reasonable reactions. Chaucer knew the public expected firm action from society’s leaders although he did not demand it but he inspired people to think about the role of leaders.

    I believe the English of the times gave the description as “I trowe he were a gelding or a mare”. Here we are 700 years later and our sociopolitical evolution leaves us helpless – with wimps, male or female, not daring to do their jobs. Is it because they know the public has not more guts than they do?

    Maybe that’s our problem. It’s not our leaders who are at fault, but we who allowed them to become preening, posturing liars who only seek fame and power for vanity’s sake.

    Are we to blame for allowing this to go on so long?

    Let’s stop grumbling. There must be a method for us to hold leaders and police organizations accountable.

    It’s hard to worry anymore about offending people who don’t do much more than grumble.

  25. e.a.f. says:

    Over at Laila Yuile’s blog there is some interesting information on why perhaps we ought not to build those pipelines and it doesn’t have much to do with Indigenous land/rights, etc. LNG is not so profitable and one pipeline company is looking for government hand outs in the form of loan guarantees. Corporate welfare while we have a housing crisis in this province? It makes mention of China and Japan’s continued use of coal and their continued building of new coal plants not only in China but in other countries they build infrastructure. Coal is so much cheaper than oil and gas. if coal is going to be continued to be used and in fact its use is being increased why build pipelines which need subsidies. The article also makes mention of oil/gas companies trying to unload their assets. The Alaska Highway News today carried an article regarding the sell off of oil/gas assets for $800K and change which are worth allegedly $25M.

    Perhaps the Indigenous protesters are doing us a favour, if we don’t build some of these pipelines.

    (Response: The economics are NOT the current issue: it’s about the LAW …and self-appointed unelected dictators who, if they don’t get their way, feel they have the right to disrupt the lives of everyone else, cost people work and pay etc. Caving in to the demands of these activists, anarchists and terrorists would be a terrible precedent: if arrested and found guilty,they should be handed significant punishment so they don’t do it again. h.o)

  26. BMCQ says:

    Leila

    Agreed 100%

    BTW

    I would very much like to use my given name and in fact some here are aware of what my name is but I have Properties in three YVR (soon to be four) municipalities and with my record here on “Keeping it Real” with other Local and National Media using my proper name would certainly ensure and guarantee that I would have every Municipal and Provincial Inspector knocking on all of my doors and it would prove to be disastrous . How sad and unfortunate is that ?

    But that is how the Left do business .

    BTW

    You would have been/would be a Wonderful Candidate for Elected Office, you not only bring a lot to the table but you are fair, balanced, and unlike uh most that run for uh Public Office, you care about your country and the people of Canada .

    You would not be in the Game to do what you could to become a uh States “People Kind” out to fill your own pockets endear yourself to UN Despots and you would certainly not be travelling the World attempting to “Curry Favour” with those same UN Carpet Baggers .

    Law Breakers are Law Breakers and they should be prosecuted .That is the only way Canadians can be made aware that the “Rule of Law” and the consequences of Breaking the “Rule of Law actually mean Accountability .

    We immediately require the Courts to act, hand down meaningful Sentences for Protesters and Anarchists which will create deterrent .

    It is long past time for Law Abiding Canadians to see their Elected Officials at all Levels take their Positions seriously, Canadians deserve much better .

  27. e.a.f. says:

    significant punishment, will simply make them martyrs, clog the courts and jails giving them even more publicity if that is what they want.

    Appreciate L.P.’s contribution of the law, like the definition, not terrorist, but criminals because they broke the law.

    There is an interesting interview over at the NYTs about how we got to where we are in society. — why do people believe this is the only way they can make their point. why do people believe this is the only way they will achieve justice or are we looking at a time where people just want to get even–you, in whomever’s opinion, ruined my prosperity, live, health, etc. and some are then of the opinion they can do that to others to get them to change. Its a variation on the old eye for an eye routine. There is also a distinct lack of trust, which has settled over our society, on a world scale. How do we change that?

    Now it can also be argued what we are seeing is simply a smaller version of some mass hysteria at play. Once you put a group of “activists” together like this, they feed on each other until some times people don’t know what the original purpose of the “fight” were. For some they feel this is the first time in their lives they have an impact, that some one or society is paying attention to them. Then there are those who we refer to as “professional activists”. It maybe they are anarchists or simply people who devote their lives to trying to change society, however misguided they are.

    Perhaps the courts are to blame, perhaps people expect too much from the court. Perhaps the judicial system only works for some and not so well for others. of course in England there is a Supreme Court decision which made me laugh. Heathrow Airport has been denied a third run way because the country signed onto the Paris Accord and a third run way is contrary to the “law” regarding the environment. Perhaps the court cases in Canada have taken the wrong approach.

    Harvey I know its about the law for you and others. For me, its about is the law just. Do I want the country/society to fall into chaos? No. However, we also can’t continue this inequity or we will continue to have chaos every few decades.

    If this is about the law, then why do we as a society create such situations which result in people believing they have no alternative but to break the law to achieve what they believe is their “justice”.

    I’m still at if the law is unjust, it may be “o.k.” to break it. Its how society makes progress, because we do know, had people before us, not broken the law at various times we would not have made progress.

    Of course if we give it a few weeks, the demonstrators will all be in their own homes, to avoid COVID 19.

  28. Leila Paul says:

    BMCQ, please do not think I am suggesting everyone who posts on a public form should use their actual names. I have nothing to lose so it’s easy for me to speak under my actual name.

    To eaf, your last post shows more of your better side which I know motivates much of what you say. We just seem to disagree how the things we both want can be achieved.

    However, I’d like to confirm that when I presented the rioters as criminals, I only was stating the minimal reasons why they should have been stopped long ago by governments and/or police. I do believe they are terrorists and anarchists because they disrupt society and create fear within those who dare not resist. I know the tactics that terrorists use.

    I have encountered terrorists personally and know their goals. Even when they claim they are avoiding the deaths of innocents, in truth they know their actions could easily cause deaths. They are indifferent to the suffering or deaths of those they consider “the enemy”.

    For those who use criminal tactics their goals are to force people to succumb to their demands. All parties are intended to feel terror – terror that they or their loved ones will be hurt if they do not “stay out of the line of fire” and instead submit passively.

    Terror is instilled in ambitious politicians that if they respond forcefully they’ll be called authoritarian, fascists or tyrants, so instead they just stand by and hope other leaders will take a strong role. They’re cowards and terrorists know that people seek peace while politicians shirk from doing their duties.

    Terrorists start from a base of criminal, outlawed activity and call it a protest in pursuit of justice. But justice is never achieved by forcefully holding large segments of society nearly hostaage. Their excuses rely on claims of victimhood and self-righteous slogans.

    It’s almost a pathology, believing themselves entitled to rewrite the laws and restructure societies – all cloaked in righteous indignation.

    Any honest pursuit of a final resolution can only be achieved if all those affected feel they can agree with both the outcome and the methods used to achieve it.

    True justice can best be achieved through consensus and compromise, through rational dialogue and peaceful consensus no matter how long it takes. Sometimes one group has to accept it is not unique among all the humans of our history and they too will have to accept losses as have so many others they’re accusing of being privileged.

    Some people are privileged and unfairly so. But that too is part of the human inherent inequalities. We are not all equal. We can only try to create a society where individuals retain their differences while everyone peacefully seeks fulfillment of their potential.

    Justice, by virtue of the role in should play in a peaceful and fair society, cannot be achieved by force and coercion.

  29. Leila Paul says:

    eaf: I’m going to reveal a little of what I experienced with terrorists who believed force was necessary when, in the end, if the weaker party is fighting an immovable force far more powerful than they, things only get worse for everyone. Usually, the most common result is to impose greater hardship and duress on those who may have had the initial grievances.

    Sometimes those grievances are legitimate; other times, perhaps not. What matters is whether the larger society shares that view and is willing to be inconvenienced or feel threatened by those staging events to achieve justice through “spectacles”.

    Until 1970 I live in Montreal. I lived near my place of work, downtown, and would often find anonymous notices stuffed in my mail box inviting me to meetings to address the subjugation and deprivation of the francophones of Quebec. I never attended the meetings and resented the fact their indiscriminate pursuit of sympathetic people was casting such a wide net.

    I was out of the country when the FLQ crisis resulted in the death of Pierre Laporte. That was after Montreal society was terrorized after bombs had been placed in postal drop boxes. We all know the decisive actions of PET and many believe his actions were not desirable. In retrospect, however, it seems PET did the right thing even if afterward he regrettably introduced legislation that created changes too quickly and without adequate consent by those he governed.

    After that crisis I resolved my travels would no longer be mere cultural learning and recreation but political learning experiences.

    I had been horrified by the hijacking of a TWA flight in 1969 by Leila Khaled and her PFLP associates – note the meaning: Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine. Those same words used by instigators of civil wars in Latin America and other parts of the world. The one word “Palestine” was interchangeable when those same ideologues create crisis after crisis and civil wars in other places.

    I won’t go into further detail about the organization or the people since some of them are still alive in Canada – most effectively in universities!

    I had been horrified at the thought of being one of the passengers on that flight and others where people were trapped – hostages and props for the drama – while the terrorists negotiated with officials. The stifling stagnant heat in airplanes without food or water – and always the fear, the terror. I shuddered to think of how they must have felt.

    I traveled to the mideast to try to understand how people could be so thoughtless and even cruel in their pursuit of “justice” for themselves. I was not surprised to find egotistical people filled with vanity and one who particularly enjoyed her “star status”.

    Did they achieve the “justice” they claimed they were trying to achieve? No. Instead copycat hijackings have resulted in what we now experience in the horrible inconveniences of “security checks” all over the world, along with the demise of airlines and other economic effects.

    Further, because of the consequential reactions intentional suicide bombings occurred, but only because after death by terrorist activities occur, the unthinkable then became a strategy.

    We all know about hostage crises as well as protests that turned into riots. Deaths – unintentional perhaps – occurred along with those that were intended and calculated in cold blood. Events creating turmoil create a loss of control and no one can stop the fears and anger from creating unintended consequences.

    But what is significant is that we have historical precedents that show riots do result in escalation and deaths of innocent people. And the purported goal of improving “justice” rarely is an outcome.

    Hostilities, enmities are aroused, and interfere with any compassion or empathy for those whose perceived victimhood initiated the crises.

    In truth, people can extract themselves from their victimhood but that requires acknowledgement that things have changed irrevocably and the “victims” are the ones who must adjust to new powers and hope they’ll be admitted into the new mainstream society.

    Aboriginals or first nations in Canada have never been prohibited from entering mainstream society. They have chosen to continue their self-segregation and deprive their youth of competing in a world where competition often allows for great satisfaction when attempted.

    Agitators do not care about the innocence of those who die. Their goal is to destroy countries that have systems of government and economies which they despise. Their loathing may be justifiable to some people, but most do not approve of the deaths of innocents. And they bitterly resent being embroiled in battles not of their making. Innocent bystanders are not likely to sympathize or support those who cause them long term, or even short term, losses.

    I do agree that peaceful protests without massive, protracted violence, can bring about revisions of the laws and restructuring of society. Very often improvements occur but that is usually done through legal mechanisms where elected representative legislate the changes.

    But when the weaker party resorts to terrorism – its ultimate result is to make the target country even more determined to resist. That determination creates even greater hardship for those who were supposedly the victims whose rights were being pursued.

    Media used to love the spectacular video provided by rioters and out of control “protests” – until these became common place by repetition or copycat events.

    Very often, when reasonable goals result in unreasonable behaviour the consequences make the targeted group more resolute to “dig in its heels” and resist all the more forcefully.

    These examples I provide have resulted in my resolute resistance to anyone who uses chaos as a cover for an undisclosed agenda – including the exploitation of people with legitimate grievances.

    The original legitimate victims tend to be the ones who benefit least and suffer longest.

  30. DBW says:

    I am not sure about others here but sometimes I hold two and even more competing even conflicting opinions at the same time.

    On the one hand, I believe that protests need to be messy and inconvenient. If not, they are easily ignored.

    On the other hand, I believe that there is a limit to that strategy. The blockades back east have gone on too long, causing too much disruption and should be removed. If people are breaking a law and don’t comply, then arrest them. Even legal strikers are ordered back to work if too much disruption occurs.

    But I also believe that over reacting to protests can lead to escalation.

    And while I am not in favour of some of the actions of the protesters I can still remain a supporter of the underlying reason for the protest -Indigenous rights.

    But while supporting our Indigenous people I also realize that they have to figure out who actually speaks for them.

    And while I believe Indigenous leaders aren’t completely blameless, I am more upset at our governments who have ignored this problem for too many years.

    Must be nice to see everything in black and white.

    By the way, I find it ironic that people consider a group of people blocking a railroad in broad daylight with the threat of arrest hanging over them as terrorists. What do you find more terrifying. The railroad blockade or having children yanked out of a mother’s arms to be sent to residential schools.

    And please don’t say this happened years ago and get over it. Indigenous families and communities have been and still are deeply affected by past and current policies.

  31. Leila Paul says:

    DBW – your comments are very well reasoned regarding both sides of disputes.

    However, I had to stop and disagree with your contention that residential schools are to blame for injuries to indigenous families that are still deeply affected and, because of that, their unruly riots may be justified.

    If anyone has lived a life free of tragedy, then they’ve had a charmed life. People are torn away from their families in any war and often the even fight and kill one another by the ideologies they choose. The U.S. civil war is one example among thousands – many of which we no longer know or may never have heard about.

    One obvious example is the Holocaust. Yes, Jews and non-Jews were so deeply affected that they mourn that ongoing event which was a culmination of painful experiences of anti-semitism for centuries. Families were torn apart and became almost separate cultural groups – Sephardi Jews, Ashkenazi Jews and the Mizrahi who remained in the middle east. How many of their children were kidnapped or abused for centuries? Families who never met except through mail or, recnelty, modern communications.

    Jews and many other nationalities suffered because of discrimination, jealousy, or simple contempt and perceived racial superiority, as they suffered in separate countries where they sought refuge.

    Despite the tragedies caused by anti-semitic riots and barbaric torment they endured, Jews managed to remain self-reliant, prosperous and faithful to their heritage while still deeply involved in mainstream society – while also contributing to the scientific and cultural advancements of those societies.

    The same is true of many other people or nations. I do not accept that indigenous peoples suffered more than Jews throughout history. I also do not accept that many who are being tormented now in the middle east by inter-tribal terrorism are simply wallowing in self-pity.

    Families have been torn apart but they’ve moved on even within the same generation where their tragedies occurred. They’re here among us now, some already contributing to Canadian life in so many ways. Those who brood and seek blood revenge only hurt the perceptions of those who are positive contributors to their new societies.

    It seems to me, that for some reason some, only some, indigenous peoples are mired in the past and brooding or exploing in rage. That cannot go on.

    The world moves on and those rigidly clinging to ancient traditions or ways of life simply can no longer be accommodated. Their ways of life would mean we must decrease the global population.

    In Canada, if indigenous people want their ancestral lifestyle – it would require decreasing our population rather than increasing it.

    The romanticized indigenous way of life is history. It is past. Some have chosen to enslave themselves to nostalgia and the demand the rest of us must meet their requirements.

    That is not realistic. The example of the indigenous residential schools is not really an appropriate reason for rioting against today’s Canadians.

    We who are alive today had nothing to do with residential schools. The repugnant sexual abuses were the sin of the clergy and the church.

    We must also question the purpose of the residential schools. The intent was to help first nations understand and adapt to a new reality.

    The intent of the residential schools was not abusive and today’s Canadians cannot be held hostage to the sins of perverse clergy.

    Many Canadians could tell stories of similar events in their history – their parents, or grandparents or many generations endured even worse abuse if conquering nations in their historical past did not even bother to try to help the indigenous peoples adapt to the new rulers of their homelands.

    It’s not that long ago in human history that any nation was either killed, or kept as slaves, some castrated and others sold as slaves.

    And those horrors were a part of every nation, race, skin color or ethnicity. It is only in the past two or three hundred years that more compassionate efforts have been made to accommodate indigenous peoples anywhere.

    No one group can expect to be a nation apart and separate from the rest of this nation. It just will not be tolerated by other Canadians – just as frustration grew and remained with Quebec’s efforts to be a nation separate from ROC, the rest of Canada – remember that phrase?

    We’ve had enough in Canada. Riots will not create support or sympathy. Many of us are fed up with all the various groups demanding restoration and special status recognition.

    Those tactics only drive a great wedge between the groups who riot and disrupt our lives. Such tactics are, to use a cliché – and to put it mildly – counterproductive.

    It is time for all of us to demand governments give direction to police agencies to put an immediate stop to any blockades, protests or riots.

    Nearly all of us are fed up and just want a sense of safety, security and cohesion.

  32. e.a.f. says:

    I remember those times well. bomb threats also disrupted things. One of my friends came home advising they had all had to de plane and be matched to their luggage before they could board again. Flying during these times could be nerve racking.

    The FLQ, not the brightest bunch. One of the former spousal units used to drink in a bar they did. They were so stupid as to discuss their plans in a bar. Some in those days had other terms for the letters f l q. Kidnapping and killing just weren’t on.

    Terrorists can only terrorise if people permit themselves to be terrorised. They are the political version of black mailers or extortionists.

    DBW, the last Residential school did not close until 1996 0r 98. The one in Port Alberni closed in 1973 and was one of the worst. A friend went there and they will never get over what happened to them there. So when I see the protests in that context, we in the non Indigenous population are lucky there hasn’t been more damage due to the protests. A former college, was Indigenous, worked for the Federal Government, did not live on a Reserve, but had to fight to have their children enrolled in public schools. The school board tried to insist because the children were Indigenous, they could not go to a public school in the town. When that happens to you as a parent, it stays with you for life. The anger remains. Racism exists. Indigenous people are frequently treated with dis respect at work, in restaurants, etc.
    Remembering back to the 1970s some of those big projects in the North had some very negative impacts on Indigenous communities especially for women. With the influx of European descent males, from southern B.C., came their “bad” habits and their negative attitudes towards Indigenous women.
    There is a long and ugly history here and the way forward will be long and difficult with people not having a clear understanding of what they say and how it is interpreted by others on the other side of things. What reconciliation means to one side will mean something entirely different to the other side of the table. My first exposure to the mess was as a kid watching a t.v. segment called the Education of Philistine by Paul St. Pierre’s T.V. series, on C.B.C. Caribou Country. At the time I couldn’t understand why an Indigenous child couldn’t be in the public school where she was needed so they could have 10 students and keep the school open. There is a scene where the provincial inspector agrees the one little girl could be non Indigenous. Its clear in the script, she is chosen to go to the school because she can “pass”.
    It may have made a nice photo op to talk about reconciliation, but when it was announced no one was really verbally clear what that would mean and how it would happen. Then you get the pipeline and you run into Indigenous governance then the courts and then some very unhappy people. This will not be resolve in my life time.

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