How China Can Free its Huawei Exec

The bullies of Beijing have lost!

The government of China tried to intimidate Canada’s leaders to interfere with the BC Supreme Court’s consideration of the legality of extradition attempts to send Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou to the US to face criminal charges.

It didn’t work.

The government of China even took two Canadian businessmen hostage … accusing them of spying … hoping Canada’s leaders would intervene and have Meng released.

That didn’t work.

BC Associate Chief Justice Heather Holmes ruled Wednesday that the charges against Meng are legal … and the extradition process can proceed.

The bullies of Beijing … and their disgraceful, dishonourable tactics … were rebuffed.

Canadians (not just “Canada”, because we ALL have a stake) showed the Chinese dictatorship that in a true PEOPLE’s state, the rule of law WINS!

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had tried to explain to Chinese officials several times that in Canada, leaders/politicians cannot interfere with the judicial process.

Of course, we know this does not mean some of them haven’t tried/done so in the past … but it only works behind the scenes, in private … because once anything like that gets out or that it has even been tried, it all hits the fan.

Because WE, unlike China, still have a FREE (if imperfect) PRESS!

And the Meng case was so high profile, so public that ANY attempt … or even a whisper of a suggestion … to influence the Court could not possibly have succeeded.

It’s the shining light of freedom … an unfettered media … that did the Xi regime’s scheming, pressures and threats in.

And China’s leaders MUST understand that!

They censor, ban, arrest the media, bloggers, artists, even lawyers within their borders; they block, blackout the Internet … coming and going; and, they round up, bloody and kill their own citizens/activists/students who dare to stand up for basic rights.

But they are POWERLESS in pushing around, subverting and FREE nation where a FREE media flourishes.

Of course, China’s leadership will not be happy with the BC Supreme Court’s decision.

Our two hostages there … Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor … may face the wrath of the wounded lion.

Or maybe not.

If China’s leaders are as smart as they think they are, they should realize the world is watching the Meng case; so snorting their wrath, stamping their feet and increasing their aggression against the two helpless Michaels and Canada will yield NO SUCCESS!

Here’s exactly how China can FREE its Huawei executive:

Go to the source of their problem: not Canada, but the United States … the country that initiated and is pursuing Ms. Meng’s charges/extradition; realize that any manipulation attempts should focus on the American Justice system, that has been politicized and corrupted under the Attorney Generals in that office over the past few years; and, make a deal with President Donald Trump … the only person who can artificially drop the case/charges against Ms. Meng, end the extradition process and release her.

Concentrating China’s fury on Canada will further injure our relations, yes, but will NOT work!

All it would accomplish is expose to the world China’s unworthiness in terms of trust and respect; emphasize China’s growing distancing from the rule of law, focus on China’s further subversion of human rights; and, certainly make a mockery of the “international” friendship China’s leaders and officials so often smilingly toast.

Instead China should JOIN the civilized world … and EARN respect through its actions, not just demand it through its threats.

A good start would be to release Spavor and Kovrig immediately, and let Canada’s court process proceed … according to law.

And focus on Ms. Meng’s case with Trump, not Trudeau.

Harv Oberfeld

(Reminder: Follow me @harveyoberfeld.ca on Twitter to get First Alerts of new topics on this blog. No spam … just Alerts to new postings.)

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28 Responses to How China Can Free its Huawei Exec

  1. nvg says:

    “…… may face the wrath of the wounded lion.”

    You mean like, a mouse pulling a thorn out of the lion’s paw?

  2. 13 says:

    I wonder if the pandemic that China has unleashed on the planet and especially the USA makes this plan unlikely. The optics of making deals with China at this time will be hard to sell to the public. Your right to point out that judicial independence is flexible when it comes to our ethically challenged PM.

    (Response: NOTHING is unlikely these days in the world of international relations: especially when it involves Donald Trump. Yes, China will figure prominently into his re-election strategies/campaign … but that could be from a positive point of having achieved something big (new deal, new sales, new access etc) or from a negative point of view (condemnation, bluster, sanctions etc.). But Trump’s strategists know China WILL react to the latter … and the last thing he needs is more lost agricultural sales, higher import prices on goods, greater economic woes. So a deal on Meng could actually serve the Chinese and Trump. h.o)

  3. D. M. Johnston says:

    It is always a wonder to me why Canadian politicians cozied up to China?

    Are they that easily bought.

    China is a very dystopian dictatorship, run by a new age Emperor, whose nick name, Winnie the pooh means a lengthy jail sentence if uttered.

    This is a country where lies have become truth and with over 5,000 years of history behind it, thinks it is the ruler of the world.

    Sadly big business has put profit over human rights and law and, which has further empowered this draconian state.

    For once Canada has shown backbone, not much but enough and like all hostage takers, Canada will not deal with the kidnappers.

    If I had my way, Ms. Meng would be in solitary confinement in conditions that the Chinese government kidnappers have kept the Canadians hostages. I would wager those Canadian hostages would be released a lot sooner if Meng wasn’t a prisoner in mansion splendor.

    China today is not unlike china of old, only the dynasties have changed..

    (Response: I’ll tell you why … $$$$. It’s all about the bucks, exports, cheap imports, investment, financial debt holders. Sure, our leaders TALK about human rights and values and promise to “bring them up” but the Chinese leaders know that very countries/leaders will actually allow silly things like principles stand in the way of $$$$. But what China MUST understand is that, in Canada, right now we are all watching and the government cannot interfere in this case. So would be a better idea to work on the Americans … where an activist Attorney General, servant of an activist President, is already in place. h.o)

  4. ThirstyDeer says:

    I just can’t see Trump lifting a finger to help secure the safe relesae of the Canadians in China. The US government has done nothing to push the matter and have shown no genuine effort to push China. They have only made a few public quotable statements how many months ago and then nothing since.

    Trump has already stated he could cancel the extradition if he gets favourable trade deals from China, indicating this isn’t about genuine justice or rule of law, but this is all a political game of chess about money and two arrogant governments seeing who’s got the biggest… you know… all the while Canada pays the price.

    (Response: No, I don’t think Trump would do anything for anyone else on any issue. Unless, and here’s the key, there is something for him to gain. And I believe a DEAL with Xi over dropping the major charges against her or allowing some minor guilty plea/fine in return for a greater trade deal, better access to Chinese markets for US companies etc. would suit Trump fine. That’s why Xi/China should concentrate on Trump/US for a solution … and not Canada, which is caught in the middle. h.o.)

  5. BMCQ says:

    A great Essay Harvey, and some good comments already .

    I am just rushing out the door but I would like to ask the following question before I leave . I would like to comment fuller and in more detail but after hearing the statement of Canadian PM Justin I all of a sudden feel sick to my stomach and need some fresh air .

    How the “Hell” can Top Mensa Member and Canadian PM expect the “Great Unwashed” anything he says about “The independence of the Canadian Justice System is absolutely “Paramount”, it is beyond reproach” !

    Really ? I wonder if media will ask former JWR or MP Philpott about that comment ?

    Again, how stupid does the PM, his Minions, and media think Canadians are ?

    Well, I suppose we have our answer, PM Justin strongly believes we are ALL Morons and we seem to confirm that every Election Day .

  6. e.a.f. says:

    YES! great post.
    Now its time for breakfast, back later

    (Response: Wow! Checking my blog even before you have breakfast. I’m flattered! Not even I do that!! Bon appetit. 🙂 h.o)

  7. e.a.f. says:

    Harvey, breakfast is at 12:30 p.m. But yes it was breakfast.

    Yes, totally agree. the solution is with the Americans. Now given China and Trump have similar methods of doing business, in my honestly held opinion, I’m sure if Xi or Ms. Meng’s father put oh, say 500M in Trump’s account the problem would be solved. We know Barr/Trump have let Trump’s friends out of jail due to “coivd”–Manford, and Mike Flynn had the charges dropped, etc. The rule of law is gone in the U.S.A. so a fee for dropping charges ought to work out well for both countries.

    China could also just tell Trump his daughter’s “exclusive” hold on things will be taken away if he doesn’t drop the charges. trump’s daughter had her “name” on things from cloths to caskets.

    We as a country which follows the rule of law can not let Ms. Meng go if a judge doesn’t rule in her favour. Its simply not on. We may be small and China may believe they can bully us, but we can’t give in. Once it starts it won’t stop. With Hong Kong now facing “war”, we can expect refugees from Hong Kong. to permit China to bully us into a decision which is unlawful will send a message to refugees and Canadians, China can “influence” our politics. China already has too much influence in this country. Look no further than the “soiree’ they gave during the municipal meeting last year. Disgusting.

    Now if Canada wants to send a message to China, if they decide to send us a message, what we can do is, revoke those 10 yr visas harper made available to Chinese citizens. Canada can require all Chinese citizens to apply for 3 month visa’s and that is it. No Chinese citizens, who is not a landed immigrant or refugee, etc. may purchase land, houses, apartments, or corporations in Canada.

    Given Chinese corporations purchased care homes in Canada and some of them are disgustingly run, the provincial governments can seize them, (expropriate), and simply pay the Chinese companies, the land value.

    If the federal Liberals decide to go this route, I’m sure our Deputy P.M. can trot over and give them the message.

    China doesn’t go to war any more, they just buy up other countries. Australia knowing this passed a law, as soon as they announced the pandemic, that no foreigners could purchase Australian companies. Canada needs to do the same.

    When people carry on about the pipelines and such they ought to remember they aren’t Canadian companies. Many of them are 49% owned by Chinese corporations or the Communist Government of China or the Red Army of China.

    When Trudeau told Canadians to come home, at the start of the pandemic, they did. In this case he can tell Canadians to leave China and Hong Kong asap, because any one who stays could be arrested and held hostage. For China this isn’t over. Xi is as big an ego tripper as Trump. they make a nice set of book ends.

    D.M. Johnston, I don’t agree regarding changing the treatment
    of Ms. Meng. Canadians don’t get sent to jail for this type of thing, they get out on bail. If we are to be a nation of equality before the law, then she gets her bail. she is not a flight risk, so I’m just fine with her being where she is. If China wants to treat Canadians in an inhuman manner, that is what they will do, but we don’t need to lower ourselves to their level. It is not the first time a Chinese citizens has been on bail and paying for their own security. We supposed to be a country which prizes equality.

    13, the pandemic china unleashed on the planet, especially the U.S.A., , please give it a rest. most of the infected who came into the U.S.A. came via Europe. the reason the U.S.A. has such a high rate of infection is they don’t have the medical system we in Canada or Europe or some Asian countries such as Taiwan have. if the U.S.A. had done what other western and Asian countries did, they wouldn’t be in the situation they are now. the first state to be hit by COVID was Washington State and they got no help. when governors or hospital chains ordered supplies, they were confiscated by the American federal government, given to a company who then sold the goods to the highest bidder and that included foreign countries. American states had to bid against each other and FEMA.

    (Edited…off topic)

    The COVID crisis in the U.S.A. is of the U.S.A’s own making. 100K dead and the list is growing and growing and growing. Before this is over I do expect the Americans to have at least 200K dead. (sorry Harvey I went off topic so feel free to “edit”.

    Even Vietnam has been able to do better. they simply ordered a lock down and enforced it using their old “block captain” system from the Communist era. (they’re still referred to as a communist state, but not as the one we once knew)

    We can hold China responsible for a lot of things but COVID comes, in my opinion, under the topic of “shit happens”. Same as Ebola, AIDS, Polio, T.B. How the diseases spread, is the responsibility of governments and individuals. Now if China continues with the wet markets, then yes, we ought to take strong action, such as banning their citizens from entering our country. Canada could some day find itself with a disease we didn’t know about and would we want to be penalized?

    (Response: No…we cannot lower ourselves to China’s level by throwing Ms. Meng in jail while she awaits the outcome of her court case. If authorities believe she will not abscond and will show up for court appearances, then bail is fine. BUT Canada could do honestly what China did dishonestly: I’m sure the Canadian government/authorities know of Chinese government/trade officials working here who are also spying on Canada: arrest/seize two (or maybe three?) of them … and put them in jail, while their real charges go through the courts at the same speed as the two Michael’s fake charges do. That should expedite an exchange … and then throw them out as part of a prisoner exchange (unless of course they appeal for asylum, rather than getting sent home. LOL!) h.o.)

  8. BMCQ says:

    eaf

    Your continued attack on our neighbours in the U.S. is not fact based, And your more than ridiculous claim of denying the Chinese origin of Covid 19 is reprehensible at best and an absolute lie .

    I am quite sure you have convinced yourself that Covid 19 is something Melania Trump brewed up in her basement .

    If I would have stated anything as ridiculous I would expect to be challenged by everyone on this blog . Of course you will not be challenged as you have criticized the U.S. and the “Bad Orange Man” .

    Then to attempt to convince people on this blog that Trump can be paid off with $ 500 K ? How stupid do you think we are ?

    As I have stated before when you have made outlandish and false statements, “You are entitled to your own opinions but your are not entitled to your own set of facts” .

    I am embarrassed for you .

  9. nonconfidencevote says:

    ahhh Harvey.
    You forgot that ANY leader of China cant back down now…..
    They might “lose face” ie; appear to (ironically) kowtow to a Western Govt.
    No no no
    This is the New China.
    Rich, Assertive, Nationalistic and strong enough to demand respect.
    Unfortunately, no one can “demand” respect…they have to earn it.
    Alas China is squandering the opportunity offered by the Trump Presidency.
    While Trump lurches from obnoxious utterance to buffoonery and annoys every Allied nation the US has….
    China takes the same bullying tactics.

    No. This will not end well.
    For anyone.
    China believes 200 years of perceived Western oppression can be reversed in one decade?
    Good luck with that.
    Lets be merciless and send Meng to the US to rot in a federal prison.

    (Response: Canada should also involve other nations to keep the two Michaels case in the floodlights …speak of them at every conference, every diplomatic gathering, every UN meeting of every UN and World trade organization …to expose and embarrass China for what it has become: a despicable dictatorship unworthy of respect, trust or any growing role within the civilized trading world. h.o)

  10. Gilbert says:

    Let me address two issues. The first is that Canada has press freedom. While this is undoubtedly true in comparison to China, it’s clear that most in the Canadian media don’t criticize the Canadian prime minister much. I hope the next Conservative leader will make it clear to voters that the media in Canada have been bribed, and the result is for the large part a very friendly media. The next leader also needs to make it clear to Canadians that it is a substantial bribe, and one that is a big waste of Canadian tax dollars. It’s also a bribe that needs to end.

    Our democracy also makes us different from China. Let me raise another issue. In what kind of democracy can parliament be suspended until September 21? Is this really democracy? Where is the outrage among the media? It seems clear that the Liberal government is using the coronavirus as an excuse to avoid its responsibilities to the Canadian voter. It is shameful and it is wrong.

    The other issue is that of our independent judiciary. Well, I believe I’m not the only one who believes the current prime minister is not very clean but in fact very corrupt. All we need to do is ask Jody Wilson.

    It’s absolutely ludicrous to tell the Chinese that our judiciary is completely independent after the fiasco with SNC-Lavalin. That was obviously about saving jobs in Quebec and saving the prime minister’s job. If SNC-Lavalin’s headquarters were in Calgary, I suspect the prime minister would not have lifted a finger to help. It’s obvious he favours companies from Quebec and especially companies in his own city.

    (Response: You ask ” Where is the outrage among the media?” I wonder where is the outrage among the PUBLIC? As I wrote in an earlier blog, the ability of the Opposition to ask questions and debate policies is important and, although emergencies can justify some leeway, it’s time for Parliament to get back to full functioning work … even if there are limited numbers in the House at any given time. It’s not happening …because the attention of the public is otherwise focused and many of them are on the receiving end of the flowing bucks. But whether in person or on video, the full parliamentary functions should return to deal with China’s increasing aggression against Canada, not just the House in Committee. h.o)

  11. 13 says:

    eaf My point was not that China had targeted the USA with covid. My point is the USA is paying a heavy toll because of Chinas indifference to keeping their people inside the country and allowing them to spread the virus worldwide (including the USA).

  12. e.a.f. says:

    13, in my opinion it would have been difficult to keep all Chinese citizens in China when this virus out break began. they have a population of approx. 1.8 billion. It is true they could have been a bit faster with advising other countries, but in my opinion, they thought they could control it, just as other countries thought they could control it. In Canada we were fortunate that we had Drs like Tam and Henry who knew some of this could not be controlled. Dr. Henry worked in Africa while Ebola was rampant. Gave us a huge head start.

    In the end it doesn’t matter how it got from Wuhan to elsewhere, really, its in the past. What we need to be mindful of is how we deal with it now and how to prevent things such as this in the future. We can be as unhappy with China as we want, but it won’t change anything. it is up to individual countries to deal with china as they best see fit. One of the most interesting things I find about the virus is Germans died at a lesser rate than people in other countries. If it is their superior medical system or because of that medical system they were in better shape, etc. We need to keep our medical system up to their standards or who knows perhaps it was just genetic.

    Any one who is familiar with China understands the Government of China doesn’t care about their own citizens, how many die, etc. As long as the state prospers and the political and financial .01%ers continue to live their lives millions could die, for all they care. I’ve known that for as far back as the early 1970s. None of what has happened is of a surprise to me. Nothing is going to change how the Government of China acts nor the Red Army of China, nor the financial .01%ers. it is up to each country to determine how best to deal with them. Over the decades they have schmoozed their way into the corridors of power. We let them buy into our corporations all because it was going to help “the economy”. No it wasn’t. Iit was going to help the rich of all the countries they made head way in. We need look no further than their “one belt road” routine. Countries fall for it and then its too late.

    If Trudeau were to take a strong stand against china and they refused to purchase agricultural products from us, you’d hear the howls for his head from all over the country. If we replaced the federal Liberals we’d be back with the Conservatives who under Harper signed a “free trade” deal with Communist China.

    I like Harveyès suggestion regarding building a few cases against some of Communist chinas diplomats and arresting them for spying. China wont care much about them, but it will demonstrate to Canadians and other countries how involved they are in our political affairs. That needs to stop.

  13. e.a.f. says:

    BMCQ, now take a deep breath and relax.

    I have not denied COVID 19 came from Wuhan. it did. However, the virus coming into the U.S.A. came via Europe. it might have helped if I had continued on with the additional information, but thought most knew it came from the Middle East, and other places, into Europe and then into the U.S.A. over on the eastern sea board.

    People can shed the virus for up to 6 or 7 weeks.. They can come into contact with it, develop it, have it and then get over it all the while shedding it. People could have had it and never known it and travelled from China to business interests in Africa, the middle east and then into Europe. If we want to know how fast and efficient this virus is, check CBCs news cast of last evening. In N.B. which was almost through it all, a person went out of N.B. came back and did not go into a 2 week quarantine but back to work, where they infected approx. 6 others and another 150 as they went
    the community.

    The next para is not worth responding to.

    As to the orange, etc. I tend to refer to him as the orange maggot when not using his name.

    Correction on my part. I meant $500M. Not $500K. Trumps business interests are not doing well hence the need to open the economy and his golf courses. In my opinion he could be bought off. His comments since the arrest of Ms. Meng has led more than myself to conclude he wants her as a hostage. We do remember his comments regarding letting her go if………………..He did let Mike Flynn go. Just read some of the articles regarding the firing of the IGs and how the DOJ is now handled by his lap dog William Barr. the rule of law is over in the U.S.A. and that is not just my opinion but that of any number of Law Professors, former DOJ lawyers, etc. there is a letter with 2K former DOJ lawyers complaining about how the DOJ is being handled or handling cases. If you have a read of Empty Wheel, you will have a much better idea of how things are going in the U.S.A.

    (Edited…getting way off topic)

  14. BMCQ says:

    eaf

    You very obviously have absolutely no interest in knowing or admitting the facts to each and every one of the claims in your last two posts so I will not even attempt to familiarize you with the truth .

    I will however ask one question of you which I have no doubt you will not answer .

    Do you not find it rather odd that Chinese Residents/Nationals were forbidden/restricted to travel to Beijing from other China Provinces but they were allowed to fly from China to literally hundreds of other world destinations ? Why ?

  15. DBW says:

    I have no problem with your post Harvey. I really don’t have an opinion on Meng and not a particularly worthwhile opinion on China, but I will offer a couple of observations.

    Remember when the US slapped tariffs on Canada. Harvey suggested that as individuals we could boycott American products and some people on here thought there was no way that would work, that there really is nothing we, Canada, could realistically do to take on the powerful US. In fact some on here actually defended the US because the US was only reacting to the previous “unfair” NAFTA deal. We were lucky that the Americans took a measured approach. Some of those same people are now suggesting that we take on an equally powerful China. “China must pay for covid!” they shout. How?? We can demand something be done, but I am guessing that there is no simple solution.

    A year or so ago, I read a poll on China – US relations. I think it would apply equally to Canada. People were asked if China was a friend or enemy or somewhere in between. Can’t remember exactly but it was something like 10% friend 30% enemy (a loaded word for sure) and 60% in between. It wasn’t given, but I would bet that most of those 60% would be leaning enemy. China certainly isn’t our friend.

    But what I am noticing here both in Harvey’s post and the comments is the measured tone compared to the language directed at the Vancouver Parks Board. Are those “radical, extremist, tyrannical, Xi-like fascists”, democratically elected by the way, as much our enemy as the actual tyrannical Xi led China. Asking for a friend.

    (Response: Well, perhaps you’ve missed it but I have, on several occasions, blogged about the tyranny of the fascist dictatorship that runs China under Xi. Here are just three of the most recent: http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/chinas-bullying-blackmail-show-why-huawei-5-g-role-must-be-rejected/ AND http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/china-reveals-its-real-nature/ AND, my favorite: http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/trudeau-too-soft-on-china/. h.o)

  16. BMCQ says:

    eaf

    Not really sure if you are really serious or actually trolling poor Bobby and the rest of the “Great Unwashed” that frequent this Blog but somewhere back a post or two you stated the following .

    “In the end it really does not matter how the virus got from Wuhan to elsewhere, really it is in the past” . WTF !! Really ?

    Please tell me that was a very sad attempt at humour over a Chinese originated Virus Covid 19 that has sickened millions, left lasting dangerous health conditions on millions and killed perhaps over 2 million, please tell me your comments were nothing but a sick joke .

    Of course it friggin matters where the Covid 19 originated, just like a virus that may have it’s source in Sweden or say France, would Health authorities and the world population in general want to know ?

    As Fred Williamson once said to me, “I Gotsta Know” .

    To deny the need to know origin of Covid 19 or any other Pandemic Disease is Moronic at best and Certifiably Mad at worst . Please do not attempt to clarify your position cannot be defended .

    AS to the release of Huawei Meng and how China might accomplish that release ?

    Six months or so ago trade agreements between China, the US and perhaps other Free World Nations there may have been an easier solution to resolve the standoff between the US Justice Dept. and China but that has all changed now with the advent of Covid 19, millions of sick people, perhaps up to 2 million dead, the Worlds Economies of almost all nations being damaged almost beyond repair in some cases and the now very aggressive tone of China toward those Free World Nations and even Hong Kong where many of the once Brave Freedom Fighters have already been imprisoned, had their body organs used for medical tourism and then the rest of what is eft over from the remains of those bodies going into canned tuna and “Soylent Green” for export to those same Free World Nations . Ah, the circle of life and how it evolves .
    China with its actions that are an assault on humanity in general and anything that is close to decent have made it’s own bed and CPC Leadership realize they are going to be held account by a for once unified Free World, World Leaders and their populations have finally had enough of China hate, China aggression, and Chinese threats and bullying, and they will stand together to challenge China and China will pay .

    Unless Canada or Canadian Courts suddenly decide the PM Justin claim that “Rule of Law” means something Meng Wanzhou will be deported to the US to face criminal charges and that exactly what she deserves .

    As an aside Huawei the company will suffer many great defeats as China and everything China is now “Poison” and a “Pariah” and literally “Kryptonite”, Free World Nations and their consumers will avoid anything from China unless they have no other choice, China will pay dearly for their transgressions and China and it’s people will suffer . There may even be enough suffering that the Hong Kong anarchy may very well take hold in China and the resulting revolution could see the deaths of Freedom Fighters .

    DBW

    The biggest difference between Communist Fascists in China and the Vancouver City Council and parks Board is the fact that the Council and Parks Board are supposed to behave in a democratic way that benefits ALL of the residents, not just a Special” few
    of the chosen who happen to “Hate the Car” .

    In the meantime the Two Michaels”, two Brave Canadian sit in a “Sh*t Hole Chinese Gulag wondering when and if they will ever breath the Glorious Fresh Air of their Homeland Canada ever again .

    Not to worry though Canadian Super Hero and PM Justin is diligently working away on their release from the shelter and basement (where he truly is a legend) of his so called Cottage” each eh and every uh opportunity he uh gets .

  17. max avelli says:

    You can fulminate against the Beijing dictatorship all you want, but this should never have happened in the first place.

    My apologies for being Machiavellian about it, but if Canada had simply sent a quiet message through back channels to China that, perhaps, it would be a good idea if Meng Wanzhou might be better off not to come back to Canada, this would never have happened.

    This is what happens when Dunces are in charge of diplomacy.

    (Response: But then Trump might have been upset … and probably hurts Canada less to have China’s Xi upset than the US’s Trump. h.o)

  18. e.a.f. says:

    BMCQ, “the facts”, yes sometimes people have different interpretations of “the facts”. Its based on our life experiences, personal beliefs, etc. so you are wise to not try to have me see things your way. it would be a waste of time.

    the truth is in the eye of the beholder.

    As to your question, I never thought it odd at all. The Communist party leadership of China consider Beijing their crown jewell and they won’t let anything go wrong there and that includes anything untoward happening to their political and financial leaders. No big deal about that. all countries/societies have a “last stand” post, which they will defend at all costs. As I’ve written many times, the Communist party of China, the Red Army of China, etc. don’t care about the “average” citizens. they have plenty of them, 1.8B. If a few hundred million die for the greater good of the country, they don’t care. I’ve known that since the 1970s. If you go back into the 1980s when enviornmentalists in China started investigating the deaths of farmers due to pollution, its ugly. Some of those enviromentalists were thrown in jail, killed, same with the farmers, some rivers/streams were so bad you couldn’t stick your foot into them without coming away with infections or skin coming off.

    Do I think its right? Of course not, but any one who doesn’t understand that, doesn’t understand the leadership of China. None of this is limited to China. We have enough history where Generals used the rank and file as “cannon fodder” not caring how many men died, as long as they got their medals. Stalin didn’t care how many Ukrainians he starved to death to attain his control over their farms. Oh, and lets not forget Canada and how it treated Indigenous children in residential schools. Didn’t care how many died, as long as the “little savages’ were turned into “good little Christians”. Shell Oil in Nigeria, the list goes on. Lets not hold China to a higher standard or act like the rest of the world hasn’t done similar things. Small pox in blankets handed out to Indigenous people in North America…… I’m going off track here. So I do hope that answers your question.

    Why? Because they could. business was the number one priority. The health of their citizens or citizens of other countries, not on their agenda. Why other countries started to do business with China at the scale they did boils down to one thing: profit, higher and higher profits because labour and environmental standards were low and lower.

  19. e.a.f. says:

    I’m not “trolling” any one regarding the statement you dislike. Its my honestly held opinion. Scientists will figure it out, but for me, I don’t care. its here. what we need to do is focus on dealing with it here and getting rid of it here. That is all I really care about, its getting rid of it. Its much like I don’t care why some one shot some one, we just need to get the victim to the hospital and deal with the rest later.

    Most of us have a fair idea of how it got here, some one who had it, got on a plane and travelled. Where it came from, in my opinion, a wet market. Will it happen again? Most likely. China isn’t going to change its ways unless other countries force it to. That in my opinion isn’t going to happen because too much money is involved. As I’ve written before if Canada were to block China from buying into Canadian companies you’d hear howls from all over……………. If China were to stop purchasing Canadian pork or beef, you’d hear the howls out of Alberta. China will just go to South America. If the west is to confront China, they will pay a price and we all need to be able to accept that. We can start by doing some of the things I suggested in other posts–target the top .01% of politics and business. Why we in the west would even consider using H. for communications is beyond me. Buy E.U., buy North American, etc. Singapore, etc.

    (Edited…off topic)

    There will be a lot of “flapping of gums” regarding what is going on in Hong Kong, but will other countries accept Hong Kong citizens as political refugees? Great Britian will, but a lot of other countries won’t. I’m game for many to come to Canada. we will benefit, but the U.S.A. not so much. Australia will take some, but the rest, they’ll die. there won’t be any uprising in mainland China. Too many have drunk the cool aid so to speak. their armed forces is massive and any revolt will be put down. We do remember 25 years ago, don’t we. Nothing has changed in China since except more and more countries opened factories there and made China richer and richer. Let us not forget even Canada, under Harper signed a free trade agreement with the Communist Government of China. The Red Army of China is self supporting and they operate corporations all over the world. their ships and containers come into our harbour all the time.
    I am just waiting for Xi to send in the Red Army and crush the rebellion in Hong Kong just as the Americans will crush the rebellion of the African Americans in their country. Other countries will stand around and wring their hands and that is about all. Just remember most countries wouldn’t take Jewish refugees prior to WW II and that included Canada and the U.S.A. “They won’t take those from Hong Kong either.

    I do not believe “China will pay”. too much money to be made. Do you really think all those shoe companies and tech companies are going to move out of there. Just look at the cloths made there.

    Just for the record don’t’ know who “poor Bobby” is.
    As to the “great unwashed”, no one on this blog is the “great unwashed”. we’re all people who share an interest, expressing our opinions regarding things Harvey writes about.

  20. nvg says:

    “it would be a good idea if Meng Wanzhou might be better off not to come back to Canada, this would never have happened.”

    SHE didn’t come back to Canada. SHE was bound for Mexico. The question that should be asked is WHY didn’t Trump wait for her to land in Mexico? Answer: Trump’s relationship over the WALL is strained enough without adding a bargaining chip to the Mexicans. and the two Canadians are Trump’s bargaining chip to keep Canada under his thumbs.

    And it wasn’t just the RCMP that were waiting for her at YVR. USA border guards, the ones that are resident here, and working at YVR, were there too.

    (Response: You’re right: I had forgotten she was apparently “in transit”, routing through Canada. So really, it’s HER fault: someone in that high position should have known the US was looking for her/had a warrant for her: that people en route/in transit are subject to rules/laws of the stop-over country; and that Canada/US have border/treaty/extradition agreements. h.o)

  21. max avelli says:

    Dear Harvey,

    In response to your comment — if Canada advised China behind the scenes that Meng Wanzhou should not come to Canada, Trump would never have known anything (which would be par for the course in all worldly affairs). So he would have been clueless about it. Therefore, nothing for him to get upset about. And we would not be in the mess we are now.

    (Response: See my comment to NVG. h.o)

  22. Gilbert says:

    The population of China is approximately 1.43 million. The reason Beijing has so few cases is that the CCP is denying the truth. I think that should be clear. Even admirers of China like the orime ministers must know that the numbers coming from China are a farce.

  23. 13 says:

    The PRC must delight in attitudes that dont care what caused the epidenic only how can we cure it. Analogy of the gun is sort of skewed. When a drunk driver injures people all we need to care about is the injured. Now that defies logic.
    We have an extradition treaty with the USA. We have a PM that applies judicial impartiality on a flexible whim. Obviously SNC has more pull than the US president. Looking at this in 20/20 hindsight and even looking forward totally blind . A Canadian currently living in any part of China that doesnt want to be added to the list of two Mikes should get a plane ticket and get the hell out of China. If Trudeau had not decided to follow but to lead, and dealt with the US president like a leader and not a school boy (insults within reach of cameras and mikes) he may have been able to approach the US and look for a deal on Meng. China has very little respect for anyone but im sure the small potatoe has zilch.

  24. HARRY LAWSON says:

    Harvey

    i agree only China and the USA , can resolve this.

    I have a real problem with the way our government as has chosen to appear subservient pandering , what China wants in Canada China usually gets. the reality is the Canadian economy suffers ,as well as many citizens , the state of our senior care homes is a example.

    another concern i have is years ago we sold Canadian citizenship across Canada to immigrants fo start or buy a business, many made the investment and returned,many bought homes and rent them out , what would happen to our rental stock if the majority came back to Canada to live . the displacement would be horrendous.

    what ever economic consequences a strong but firm message should have been sent to ensure the release of the michaels

    (Response: Canada’s principles in dealing with China have long been subjugated …just like every other country … to the economic benefits of dealing with them (exports for producers and farmers and low cost imports for consumers). Sad but true. And frankly, although I want Trudeau/government to keep their hands off our Court system, I worry that China will test whether we are willing to see farmers or other Canadians lose their markets/jobs standing up for Trump/US ! h.o)

  25. e.a.f. says:

    If Ms. Meng is deported to the U.S.A. and it were to be done very quickly, it may take the heat off of Canada. Yes, China would be royally pissed, but on the other hand, they would be focused on the U.S.A. The U.S.A. would not be treating her as well as she has been treated in Canada. American prisons are ugly, dirty, violent. My take on it would be, China would be too focused on the U.S.A. to pay us as much attention as they would under normal circumstances.

    They’re “at it” with Australia at the moment. If they “get into it” with the U.S.A., who knows, we might be their last item of focus.

    In my opinion, the U.S.A. makes up “laws” as they go along” to “get even” with other countries. their sanctions against Iran, are not what much of the E.U. wants. They would like to trade with them. When sanctions were lifted for a short while, Iran’s leaders went straight to the E.U. and did billions worth of shopping, for jets, medical equipment, etc. Canada of course didn’t benefit, Harper had closed the embassy in keeping with American requests.

    Canadians may want to stand on principles, but sometime that is a very costly thing to do. People need to decide what is more important. In my experience people are usually more interested in their money than principles.

    (Response: The only way it can be done quickly would be if Meng gives up the extradition fight and heads to the US. No way! She will fight it all the way. The only other way for a quick solution would be a deal between the US and China …solving the issue … and also getting Canada off the hook. h.o)

  26. BMCQ says:

    eaf

    I get it, I finally get it .

    America is Bad, Americans are Bad, and “Orange Man” Really Bad .
    You have convinced me, I can now see why so many Americans of any ethnicity, skin colour, religion, or political leanings are attempting to escape the U.S. .

    Of course you are correct, the huge numbers (over 1 million each year) of Refugees and other Immigrants accepted and welcomed into the U.S. by it’s Government and People is all a MYTH, it is all made up on the FOX News Network, thee in truth are more than likely fewer than 100 or so immigrants/refugees allowed to enter the U.S.

  27. e.a.f. says:

    BMCQ,
    You’re better than this reply. You know as well as I do I haven’t said all Americans or the U.S.A. is bad. the U.S.A. has some real problems and their Constitution is being violated by Trump. Trump, in my opinion, is a very bad person. Violating your own country’s Constitution is a horrible thing to do. If you have a read of Empty Wheel, you’ll get an idea of the Constitutional issues at play.

    I wouldn’t say all immigrants are welcomed into the U.S.A. Muslims were banned, with modifications, court ordered. Lets not forget Germany took in approx. refugees, mostly Muslim. We’ve heard what Trump has had to say about Mexicans and there are still those 800K DACA kids who haven’t been approved yet.

    Trump’s latest “utterings” are going to lead to a race war. The man has shown no leadership in the COVID crisis.

    A country which has cops who think its o.k.. to murder a man over 8 minutes by cutting off his air, while other cops stood by, is not a good country. It has issues–racists. Nothing has changed since I was a kid and watched the Civil rights movement on T.V.

    We won’t change each other’s minds.

  28. BMCQ says:

    I might not change your mind but everything I say is “Fact” and if proven wrong I can admit, I apologize, and I stand corrected, you, Max and D.M. Simply dive and hide under your desks and it is getting old .

    You said, “ Americans do not care about their Seniors”, I did not, you are lying .

    (Edited…getting way off topic)

    You are skirting the truth and I will continue to call you out, challenge me and show me where my comments are not fact, then show me where your untruths are fact .

    You are entitled to your own opinions but you are not allowed to your own set of facts which are not true .

    (Edited…off topic)

    It has nothing to do with changing ones mind, it is the difference between intentional untruths and fact, the choice is yours .

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