NDP/Greens Adoption of Indigenous UN Resolution Will Make Fast Ferries Fiasco Look Like Chump Change

It seems so long ago … but t wasn’t really: in 2003 the BC government sold the failed three “Fast Cat” ferries for $19.4 million … reportedly “less than 5% of what they cost to build”.

“It’s estimated the BC Ferry Corporation lost $400 million on the fast ferries,” the Surrey Now-Leader reported last year.

Critics and supporters are still arguing over the pros and cons of the NDP government’s BC Ferries catamaran experiment … but there’s a modern-day NDP/Greens-created fiasco looming … one that will cost the province’s taxpayers BILLIONS!

Premier John Horgan two weeks ago announced his government’s intention to pass legislation legally implementing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP).

“The legislation requires that Indigenous peoples are included in all decision-making that impacts their rights,” Global TV reported.

It sounds quite magnanimous … and it is … awarding First Nations rights and privileges beyond those enjoyed by ANY other group in the province.

There is NO other ethnic, racial, religious, cultural or residential community that is GUARANTEED by law inclusion “in all decision-making that impacts their rights.”

NONE!

In fact, the NDP proposal is even worse than described above.

The declaration drawn up by the UN (an agency that regularly and consistently DISGRACES itself by its own actions, inactions and the appointments of brutal dictators, torturers and murderers to its own human rights bodies ) is now telling Western nations to give unprecedented rights to indigenous groups.

“Article 26 of the UN Declaration states that “Indigenous peoples have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired,” and it directs states to give legal recognition to these territories,” according to UBC.

And the NDP/Greens have bought in.

Think about the implications of that …. giving indigenous groups “the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired.”

Think about that.

BC’s Indigenous peoples have already laid overlapping claims that cover MORE THAN 100% of the land of the province!

The implications of the BC legislature adopting that clause alone and signing it into LAW would be HORRENDOUS!

But THAT is not the worst of it!

Article 19 states “States shall consult and cooperate in good faith with the indigenous peoples concerned through their own representative institutions IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THEIR FREE, PRIOR AND INFORMED CONSENT (my CAPS) before adopting and implementing legislative or administrative measures that may affect them.”

PLEASE read that again!

” OBTAIN FREE, PRIOR AND INFORMED CONSENT” by the indigenous PEOPLES (plural) “before adopting and implementing legislative or administrative measures that may affect them.”

“Affect them”? When First Nations claim the ENTIRE province … THAT could refer to anything! Any development! Any construction! Any resource project! ANYTHING!

Make no mistake about it: regardless of what the politicians tell you or how they try to soft-peddle it .. saying the actual word “VETO” is not included … THAT Article , de facto, would grant BC’s First Nations blackmail and/or shakedown powers of ANY and ALL projects/proposals in the province!

Read it CAREFULLY again … and then think about the generous history/record of decisions by Canada’s Courts … including the Supreme Court … in recent years vis a vis indigenous claims/challenges/demands.

And those were BEFORE any adoption or passing into Law the Declaration that the human-rights-violating hypocrites of the United Nations injecting themselves into Canada’s affairs/negotiations/reconciliation initiatives.

You can read the entire UN “do-as-we-say, not-as-we do” document here: https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf

Most British Columbians support inclusion, consultation, co-operation and reconciliation.

However, the implications of this declaration, if passed into law by the NDP/Greens, would make the losses of the Fast Ferries look like spare change

No doubt adding up to BILLIONS OF DOLLARS .

Even those who point out Article 19 does not include the word “VETO”, do concede it would require COMPENSATION to indigenous groups each and every time ANY action/development/project etc. proceeds without indigenous consent.

BILLIONS!

Without investing a penny or working a single day!

With that kind of law, why would indigenous chiefs/bands and members ever agree to ANYTHING?????

Saying “NO” will be like winning the Lottery! Over and over again!

No wonder First Nations Chiefs and band members danced, and sang, and celebrated Horgan’s announcement.

While Horgan was reportedly “holding back tears”.

And if this give-away legislation is passed … in its entirety adopting the UN Declaration as dictated by the miscreants/dictators in control of today’s UN … it’s the people of BC, and all their relations, who will be crying … for generations.

Harv Oberfeld

(Note: To hear me discuss this issue on the Goddard Report podcast: https://www.howestreet.com/2019/11/07/united-nations-in-canada-and-the-cbc/ … or on YouTube: https://youtu.be/KKofcsIkpek )

(Reminder: You can get FREE First Alerts for all new postings on this Blog by following @harveyoberfeld on Twitter.)

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56 Responses to NDP/Greens Adoption of Indigenous UN Resolution Will Make Fast Ferries Fiasco Look Like Chump Change

  1. john says:

    YOU GUYS ARE JUST PLAIN NUTS TO LET THE DIPPERS/GREENIES PASS LEGISLATION LIKE THAT.

  2. BMCQ says:

    Thank you for this Harvey, this whole Legislation by the NDP will turn out to be a Catastrophe for ALL Hard Working Tax Payers right across this Province and eventually Canada .

    This Legislation enacted by the B.C. NDP is a “Clear and Present Danger” to the very existence of what Canadians currently consider their Normal Standard of Living .

    Who in their “Right Mind” would listen to the United Nations about anything ?

    Do not be surprised if similar Legislation is enacted Federally now that PM Justin actually has evidence that the Canadian Voter especially in “The 905” has been taken in by his latest “SCAM” and was ignorant enough to re-elected him .

    (Edited … off topic)

    Why is it that Leftist Politicians Federally and Provincially always “Cave In” to Special Interests of any kind ?

    Why is it that Leftist Politicians always seem to be in such a rush to cost the Tax Payer unnecessary Grief and more importantly so much money, they just cannot seem to help themselves . To enact this Legislation is an Assault on anyone that gets up every day and goes to work, including the once Hard Working Tax Paying Seniors that are on Fixed Income, this is INJUST and Punitive .

    Why would Horgan and his Minions expect any Business to remain in B.C. if they invoke Legislation such as this, , does he only listen to Meggs and a few other of his Minions, surely there must be more thought put into something major such as this “Cesspool Floating Turds” !

    Why would they not think of the people of B.C. that actually “Pay the Freight” , do they not realize that a lot of those that pay the freight are actually NDP Supporters ?

    The ridiculous, pathetic, and very dishonest Symbolism and Tokenism displayed by PM Justin with his pandering to Special Interests has now spread to the B.C. NDP and this Legislation will do great harm to each and every one of us that are not Special Interests . Shameful .

    Surely other than one or two on this Blog most that support the B.C. NDP once they read Harvey’s Analysis must be asking themselves “What the Hell is Going On Here” ?

    Why is it that the Federal Liberals or the B.C. NDP cannot JUST ONCE use their Head and do something positive for the Hard Working Tax Payer who is constantly under assault with increased Tax and Housing and other Cost of Living a favour and do the right thing and “Think Before they Shoot” ?

    Once again, a Leftist Politician shouts out, “Ready Fire, Aim” !!

    This will not only be a Catastrophic Disaster it will in fact be a Life Changing Event for each and every one of us, things will change forever and even with a Defeat of the NDP the next Government will be intimidated and very afraid of doing away with this Legislation .

    Yes, this Legislation is a “Game Changer”, much worse than Fast Ferries, and much worse than the B.C. Liberals might have done including Basi Virk, the Site “C”, sale of B.C. Ferries, and everything else you might think of put together, this “Wrong Minded” Legislation .

    (Edited for length.)

    This unthinkable, harmful, and grossly unfair Legislation is basically a VETO and it virtually guarantees that absolutely nothing will be completed any time soon .

    It will only be a few short years before British Columbia is changed for years, we will very soon be a “A Have Not Province” .

  3. D. M. Johnston says:

    Madness has gripped the NDP and Greens.

    Sadly, it is all coming to a bad end and both the NDP and the Greens will be nothing more than a footnote in history.

  4. D. M. Johnston says:

    The Fast Ferries were supposed to be for a Iona Island/Gabriola Island route, which would cut crossing times to under 50 minutes and a new bridge connecting to Gabriola Island from Vancouver Island would see the end of an expensive ferry service. The Fastcats were designed for this route, but politics got in the way and planning was abandoned and the planning for the “Cats” should have been discarded.

    The NDP were talked into building the damn things and a design change, by adding a bow door, adding over 40 tons to the original design so they could operate, on established ferry routes made them unwieldy and fuel consumptive. Politicians never admit to mistakes and the NDP build a third one!

    I think the real scandal was that Campbell sold the “cats” to political friends, well below scrap value, which was ignored by the media.

    BC Ferries is once again hinting for a Iona island to Gabriola route with a bridge to Vancouver Island to replace the current ferry.

    That being said, not one politician in BC is looking 3 minutes into the future and as you state, the costs associated with this will be massive.

    But when did politicians every think about the taxpayer as we are spending $4.6 billion to build 12.8 km of an obsolete light metro system that will do nothing alleviating congestion or pollution.

    It’s all money down the toilet.

    Today’s politic is all about rewarding an enriching political friends and the NDP want to be good friends with the first nations.

  5. Gene The Bean says:

    “There is NO other ethnic, racial, religious, cultural or residential community that is GUARANTEED by law inclusion “in all decision-making that impacts their rights.”

    That is true. There is also no other culture that that has gone through the process of annihilation to assimilation by “immigrants” to THEIR land.

    I’m not in agreement with a lot of this proposal. But I am in agreement with showing all indigenous peoples around the world the respect they deserve.

    (Response: As I stated in the piece, most British Columbians welcome inclusion, co-operation, reconciliation for ALL in this province …including addressing indigenous complaints. But REQUIRING CONSENT from ANY group before anything can be approved or done … goes too far and actually legally codify INEQUALITY and SPECIAL RIGHTS …which the NDP would never countenance in regards to any other group! That aspect HAS TO GO!! h.o)

  6. nonconfidencevote says:

    If the NDP passes this lunacy.
    I cant wait to see the fall out.
    First will be the NDP crushed in the polls.
    It’s only one more reason to leave this province.

    (Response: It just boggles the mind: in a province and country of so many people supportive and dedicated to achieving reconciliation with First Nations ..WHY oh WHY would the NDP/Greens even need to go to the UN ..with such a dismal record of its own in the way it deals with human rights/torture/murder/slavery of so many member states… to get the blueprint of how to address indigenous issues??? And then adopt a clause that basically hands VETO powers and virtual CONTROL of ALL BC’s future developments/investments to ANY one group of residents?? Or failing that, COMPENSATION that could run into the BILLIONS over time. The consequences for BC’s future and especially resource development would be cataclysmic! h.o)

  7. hawgwash says:

    There will be a looooooooong line of lawyers coming at this from every angle.
    Noncon, what are the other reasons and where would you go?

  8. BMCQ says:

    I have been away and will make a point of catching up on this literally “Evil” Legislation but I wonder if the passing of this UN Lunacy may actually have an impact on projects already begun and say close to completion ?

    Once again the First Nations will have virtual Veto over almost any Major Project in this Province and it could even have a very negative on the rest of Canada if Pipelines, B.C. Seaport Terminals for Import or Export Products, LNG Terminals, Airports, Roads, Tunnels, Bridges, Recreational Resorts, Housing, Mining, Logging, Fishing, and so much more which all contribute to the Government Programs we all need and the other Programs demanded .

    Once again it is the Lawyers that will be the biggest beneficiaries of this most absurd Legislation, this will turn into a Modern Day Depression, the Economy of B.C. and quite possibly Canada will be thrown into chaos and there will be no way out because this legislation will literally Handcuff the ability of Commerce to progress .

    Then of course the Lawyers that will benefit so much from this will all be rewarded with huge incomes representing Indigenous Groups, all paid for by the very Tax Payer that will be literally held to ransom, what an injustice .

    This Legislation will indeed threaten the very ability for any sort of Natural Resource Projects and that will in turn Cripple the Economy of B.C. and as I stated up the page it will in very short order turn B.C. into a “Have Not” Province .

    “Bang the Drum Slowly, very Slowly” .

    We are already witnessing Oil and Gas Companies fleeing Alberta and Canada, you can expect much the same in British Columbia, most of the Large Resource Companies are already beginning to explore other options and opportunities .

    I am going to lay some of the blame on this on the former Christy Clark B.C. Liberal Government, yes she deserved much credit for the Electoral Victory in 2013 but it was also that Egotistical same CC that managed to Grasp Defeat from the Jaws of Victory two years ago, there was no need to see another NDP Gov elected, Clark deserves much of the responsibility for this mess herself, there is no doubt about that .

    Ask yourself this, how could we expect any major corporations of any kind in any Industry, Natural Resource or other wise to invest any amount of capitol in any industry project in B.C. with this kind of disastrous legislation now on the books ?

    It is bad enough to listen to the UN even just for symbolism and tokenism but to actually pass Legislation that threatens the ability of B.C. to function as a Major Canadian Economy threatens both the future of the Province itself but of Canada as a whole .

    Once again, where are Media on this, other than Vaughn Palmer and Harvey using the ”Veto” word there has barely been a mumble out of any one .

    This wrong minded Legislation will affect the Good People of B.C. for Generations, as a matter of fact we may never recover .

    As NonCon suggests “The NDP will be crushed in the Election” but can the Province escape major damage ?

    Who the Hell is is advising Horgan and his Brain Trust ?

    (Response: This should be a HUGE issue in BC. Where are the Liberals? Where is the media? Where are investment, development and resource companies? Clearly asleep … or unaware. I’ll repeat the CRITICAL portion of article 19: ” in order to obtain their free, prior and informed consent before adopting and implementing legislative or administrative measures that may affect them.” What do they think “PRIOR CONSENT BEFORE ADOPTING laws and administrative measures” means? And then, there’s this …from Article 28: ” just, fair and equitable COMPENSATION (my CAPS), for the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned or otherwise occupied or used, and which have been confiscated, taken, occupied, used or damaged without their free, prior and informed consent.” BILLIONS OF DOLLARS are at stake here!!! Money that would be TAKEN from health care, education, transportation, justice, climate change budgets. Someone in government, business, investment … even home owners and renters … had better wake up before this is passed. h.o)

  9. harry Lawson says:

    Harvey,

    i wish i could say you are wrong,m it has been quite a legislative session for our Indigenous brethren. kudos to the government for wanting to share lottery proceeds .kudos for wanting to fix some long time systemic issues that the various level of governments have failed to fix or even make worst.

    a government must govern for all the people . i really wonder if those who decided on this legislation was stoned. it makes no sense but makes a great feel good moment.

    so down the road a court will decide the intent of the legislation and the lawyers get richer , and where is the official opposition? are they pandering or missing in action or scared of being labeled racist ?

    (Response: you’re right … where are the Liberals? The NDP’s give-away plan (power and dollars) looks like political correctness run amok! And let’s keep it real … handing out more and more money … with no work required in return … just prolongs and does not solve the generations-long welfare dependence that has debilitated many First Nations. I would like to see them involved, consulted, enjoy financial benefits from projects and have many employed in them …GREAT! But giving any group VETO power over projects or huge financial incentives to turn projects down … makes no sense! And the NDP/Greens will be ignoring their responsibilities to the rest of the people of the province by proceeding with those Articles that do that. h.o)

  10. DBW says:

    Before we set our hair on fire, here is what the government is saying:

    If passed, the legislation sets out a process to align B.C.’s laws with the UN Declaration. It will mandate government to bring provincial laws into harmony with the UN Declaration. It will require development of an action plan to achieve this alignment over time – providing transparency and accountability. And it will require regular reporting to the legislature to monitor progress. In addition, the legislation will allow for flexibility for the Province to enter into agreements with a broader range of Indigenous governments. And it will provide a framework for decision-making between Indigenous governments and the Province on matters that impact their citizens.

    https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/governments/indigenous-people/new-relationship/united-nations-declaration-on-the-rights-of-indigenous-peoples

    Let’s see:

    sets out a process
    require development of an action plan over time
    providing transparency and accountability and regular reporting … to monitor progress
    allow for flexibility to enter agreements
    provide a framework for decision making

    IT SETS ON A PROCESS that might make it easier to get some of the things done that we want to see done. After all we are already tying ourselves into knots with costly and time consuming court cases.

    We might want to wait a bit before predicting the economic disasters that I am reading here.

    (Response: Interesting…you seem to believe we should take as Gospel what government tells us. Really? Does that just apply to Horgan/NDP … or did it apply to what Christy Clark, Trudeau, Harper, Gordon Campbell etc used to say to us as well? Perhaps you should re-read the Blog I wrote after Horgan was first elected … when he lied to the voters and did NOT quickly move to ban corporate and union donations as he had promised to do: http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/ndphorgan-betray-major-election-promise/. We all know it won’t be Horgan … but the Supreme Court who will interpret and decide exactly what will involve required “CONSENT” or “COMPENSATION” … and, if recent Court decisions are any example …it will be COSTLY horror for BC. There is no reason why consultation and involvement and co-operation and recognition cannot be adopted …WITHOUT those two very DANGEROUS contentious clauses to be included in any new law . h.o)

  11. e.a.f. says:

    Harvey, the topic ought to keep you busy for some time. Were you bored? You won’t be after this.

    I’ll have to think about this over night, but my first inclination is, too bad, so sad. Had we not treated Indigenous people as we have in this country, this would not be on the table, at all. You reap what you sow and what goes around, comes around. Now its our turn. As an aging baby boomer, I’ll be dead before this starts to impact me, so the younger generations will pay for what we and our ancestors did to the Indigenous people of this country. On the other hand, adopting a U.N. resolution on this topic, is actually funny, when you look at who is the chair of the committee for human rights, I do believe its Saudi Arabia, one of the worst offenders of human rights. Then there are all the other countries, which voted for this who violate their own Indigenous peoples rights each and every day, killing them. Oh, well, I’m sure the countries which voted for the resolution thought it would be fun to take a run at U.S.A., Australia, etc Of course passing this resolution will mean nothing. We’ve all seen, hear, read, about the governments’ good intentions, namely the white’s intentions which never came to anything. It was just all b.s. to try to sound like they cared, but really there are still reservations in this province without adequate health care, housing, clean water, services for seniors and youth.

    so here is my suggestion: forget about the words, and lets stay with the actions. Horgan and Weaver can start by providing decent housing for all Indigenous people in this province, health care, water, etc. I’m not worried, it won’t be happening. this is just another couple of white boys trying for the Indigenous vote. All talk, no action.

    They may co opt a few bands or chiefs to go along with this, but trust me, no white government is going to provide the Indigenous people of this province with the things they really need or even assist the Indigenous people to obtain health centers on each reserve…………when they start doing that, we might think they mean what they’re trying to pass, until then every one can relax, this isn’t going to benefit the greater portion of the Indigenous communities and because nothing will be done, its not going to cost us anything.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this is a game the NDP/Greens have cooked up. Put the Leg. on the table, let the B.C. Lieberals and all sorts of groups come out with all their racist rants, a few court cases later, law is considered in violation of the Constitution and they Greens/NDP can be the good guys and the rest are the baddies. Of course by the time this is all settled, some of us will be dead of old age.

    (Response: Love your first line!! 🙂 I actually thought about the reaction I would get by writing about the topic …but just could not stay silent (Me ..silent???) in the face of what I truly believe is such a dangerous precedent-setting ERROR the NDP/Greens are foisting upon the people of BC … that will especially effect/hinder investment and development of middle class jobs and BC’s economic future. THIS legislation deserves a REFERENDUM of the people … ALL the people, not just First Nations! If this goes through … I sadly believe history, shakedowns, vetoes, lawsuits, and huge payouts for nothing will prove me correct. And then I will proudly step forward … and rightfully claim my own reward: an Order of BC! But no doubt … NOT from Horgan! 🙂 h.o)

  12. 13 says:

    When I watched Horgan in the legislature with the FN at his side I couldnt believe my eyes. The pundits immediately debate whether it amounted to a veto. ____ the FN already have what amounts to a veto. They have the ability to stall or stop just about any project .
    This type to government action truly points out just how removed from the real world our “leaders” are. The middle class ? Good grief the middle class, whoever they are elected this bunch of bozos. The middle class are getting just what they deserve.
    A group of senators want to start a rapid response team to deal with the countries problems.The notion of allowing those trough dwellers any more opportunity to waste money is laughable. Governments at all levels have lost touch with reality

    (Response: I think a lot of the NDP/Green supporters like a lot of the touchy-feely, apologetic bowing and scraping we’ve seen so much of recently .. and Horgan/Weaver et al are counting on that to get this dangerous legislation through. And many of their backers no doubt think it’s okay (or Great!) because it will only affect the big, rich corporations or investors or resource industries. But the truth is … none of these big shots or their backers actually go out and do the work associated with any massive development, mining, construction or other resource projects: it’s middle class working British Columbians whose jobs and futures are threatened by this excessively dangerous legislation. Remember, the BIG companies can always move their search for resources etc to other countries … but BC’s workers don’t get to go … and will be the ones to suffer most. How ironic that it’s an NDP government inflicting this total give-away legislation on the middle class … and not Christy Clark’s Liberals! h.o)

  13. nonconfidencevote says:

    Sorry, hawg.
    I’m keeping my cards close.
    The unaffordablity of this province.( rent, ownership, insurance, etc etc etc)
    Its lunatic, polarized politics.( Far Left or Far right)
    The clowns in the media, the politically correct nazi’s , climate warriors, on and on and on.
    Bankrupting BC.
    If this is passed into law it will create work for generations of Lawyers and nothing more.
    Kinda like Lawyer Pierre Trudeau’s Canadian Constitution…..
    Endless, stalling, navel gazing,…..negotiations followed by ……endless bickering lawsuits.

    What international company , in their right mind, would want to invest in that….?
    Nope. BC , rich in resources, will sit squabbling over scraps that no one will own.
    Brilliant.
    The NDP, proving their stupidity has reached new levels of incompetence.

    (Response: At a time when so many people are demanding more and better health care, more and better housing, more and better educational spending, more and better transportation and transit infrastructure … and, oh yes, Pharmacare as well! Inclusion, co-operation, assistance, jobs, sharing benefits …YES … but a VETO or huge undefined COMPENSATION …No! And you and I …and everyone else reading this …know full well, when ANY indigenous communities turn down proposed projects, it won’t be Horgan or Ross who will decide the remedy compensation but the Courts …and given their generous positions/decisions favouring First Nations in recent years … it would be ridiculous for any thinking government (or taxpayers) to leave it to them to define any outcome. BC does not need a UN resolution to make things right …without surrendering CONTROL over the province’s economic future to ONE group of people. h.o)

  14. DBW says:

    People have asked: Where is the media? Where are the Liberals?

    This might help.

    https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-mla-and-haisla-leader-poses-questions-on-undrip

    The BC Liberals supported the bill unanimously although three did not show up because of questions they had. I wished they had showed up like Ellis Ross and asked the questions or at least expressed their concerns.

    I don’t know Ellis Ross all that well but because he is the MLA for the riding next door to mine and been a strong advocate of LNG I have read about him and based on that alone, he is a BC Liberal that I would trust.

    Note, as an Indigeneous person, he was asking the hard questions about the meaning of consent “because this is going to affect a lot of people that depend on the decisions so they can go mining, so they can go with their forestry careers, so they can continue with LNG operations. And I’m talking about First Nations, as well. So this matters.”

    And then this “To say that I’m here trying to fearmonger or undermine this? No, I’m not. I’m trying to get clarity. That’s what I’m trying to do. There’s a lot riding on this.”

    Then he said that he trusted the government to figure it out and supported the bill in principle.

    There is a big difference in that approach then assuming that the world will end before any of the details have been discussed.

    (Response: From my cursory perusal of the coverage, Vaughn Palmer (and I)are about the only ones who have seriously delved into and raised questions and concerns about this radical NDP legislation. Here’s a scary excerpt from another Palmer piece Oct 21: “The Assembly of First Nations leader, Perry Bellegarde, characterized the UN declaration as recognizing “the right to say yes and the right to say no.”
    “Other provisions heighten the stakes for B.C. and its more than 200 recognized First Nations.
    Article 28 grants Indigenous peoples “the right to redress, by means that can include restitution or, when this is not possible, just, fair and equitable compensation, for the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned or otherwise occupied or used, and which have been confiscated, taken, occupied, used or damaged without their free, prior and informed consent.”
    Let’s keep it real … this is extremely dangerous legislation when it comes to the potential implications for ANY major investment, development, construction, extraction projects in BC’s future. h.o)

  15. Helena Handcart says:

    Harvey, you wrote: “Think about the implications of that …. giving indigenous groups “the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or otherwise used or acquired.”
    Are you including the rights of the Jews to occupy their traditional lands in the former Palestine? There are many similar parallels in Europe and America. We should not allow our colonial past to prevent us from doing what is right today.

    (Response: Clearly off the topic … but just to keep it real: Read your Bible and the scholarly scientific accounts of a thousand archeological digs that have shown absolutely conclusively that the Jews, not so-called “Palestinians” (really from what is now known as Jordan), were by far the historical inhabitants of the land of Israel, those who overwhelmingly populated Israel, and ruled Israel from 5,000 years ago till now. So if ANYONE has indigenous rights to what we now call Israel, it IS the Jewish people, not the “Palestinians” whose ancestral indigenous lands were … and are … in Jordan …if they can ever wrest it out of the hands of the Hashemite Hussein family who violently seized it. Clearly QUITE DIFFERENT from what happened in BC and Canada regarding OUR indigenous peoples … who, unlike the “Palestinians” were not re-named and invented post Hashemite Hussein family conquest. h.o)

  16. hawgwash says:

    nonconfidencevote, I can’t argue with your response to my “give me 10 good reasons” and it gets me thinking hard on what cards are still face down.

    This: “If this is passed into law it will create work for generations of Lawyers and nothing more” is aligned with my sentence, up the page and supports DBW’s “hair afire” comment; much ado about nothing.

    The biggest negative about this will be its divisiveness, but in the end it will be no different than so many “manifestos” Canadian politicians love to create.

    If it becomes a real problem the next (non NDP) government will deal with it quicker than you can say “public sector contracts.”

    And, to scuttle the vision of a ghost province, there will be three Alberta families lined up to take over your vacated lodgings.

  17. BMCQ says:

    Oberfeld and Palmer actually called this Legislation for what it is – VETO

    There is no PC Term or Spin that can explain it away no matter how Stupid they believe the People of B.C. are .

    More importantly as NonCon, Harvey, and BMCQ have stated there is absolutely NO chance that any Resource Corporation would consider investing in B.C. right now and this Legislation will for sure have a long lasting detrimental affect on the Economy and Standard of Living on ALL of the Working, Contributing, Tax Payers in B.C. along with the unfortunately Fixed Income Pensioners who actually built this Province .

    (Edited..off topic)

    This does not to explained any more clearly, the intentions of the Horgan are as obvious as PM Justin standing at a Podium with Sleeves Rolled up to once agan Lie to His Flock, this is simple stuff, Horgan has Hung ALL of US out to Dry and there is NO Turning back .

    If Canadians, Albertans, and the people of B.C. do not immediately Denounce this Legislation that is taking place in Ottawa and now in B.C. there will be Hell to Pay .

    There is NO Clarification required, we must all of us contact our MLA today, do not let them do this to Canada’s Great Province .

    Why is it Canadians can never stand up for anything unless it is a mean nothing protest that causes the real contributors who pay the freight great inconvenience keeping them from their Families ?

    The Biggest Criminals in all of this current topic, the Crime and Punishment Issues we all face, are the Activist Judges that do everything they can to obstruct Justice and Progress right across this country,

    It is time that Politicians at all Three Levels, Media, Tax Payers, and every other citizen that is wronged by so many of the Wrong Minded Decisions by Activist Judges called those Arrogant Elitist Sons, Daughters, and whatever other current Gender we are promoting out, we need to face those Activist Judges call them out and we need change now before it is too late .

    Personally I can move or sell my Business anywhere I want, and if it was not for the absolutely incredible Unionized Employees that are the Life Blood of the Business I would be considering my options myself .

    The Properties I hold can easily be sold, it is no wonder with Legislation like that we are discussing People all over this Province are considering that very thing .

    Not to worry though there seems to be literally $ Billions of Dollars of Clean Money Laundered Money looking for an opportunity to invest in B.C. so things will be just fine .

    So let us just keep Navel Gazing and Kicking the Can Down the Road on this, after all, we are vey slow learners and we need to discuss until PM Justin is just at the Tail End of his FOURTH Term, by then we may have an actual in on this most important question but then perhaps not, another year or two might be needed to have a real solid opinion, why rush things .

  18. 13 says:

    To anyone that thinks this nonsense is no big deal may I make a suggestion
    Go to the NW Audio Vault from Sunday at 1pm.
    What you will hear is an interview with the owner of an Ontario based manufacturing plant. He “WAS” located in the Toronto area.
    He tells the story of being crippled by the costs of doing business in Canada. Taxes, and very expensive energy costs.
    The story includes how his concerns were ignored by all 3 levels of government.
    It includes the last day where the 5 most senior employees told him how sorry they were that he was being driven out of Canada.
    The next part is part is particularly disturbing. He tells of how welcoming local , state and federal governments were when he went looking for a place to relocate.
    The rest of the story is quite upbeat and happy. Unless you were one of the Canadian workers that lost a good job.
    WHY would any company, investor, business, banker, you name it want to wade into the BC NDPs quagmire of community sector forced unions, and they already endless First Nations debacle which Horgan is about to enhance with a UN steroid injection .
    Think about it folks. Feel good legislation is not the answer. Justin Trudeau will smile and he will tell you that BC is a leader with Carbon Tax and now look at BC They will set the bar for compliance with the UN s indigenous resolutions, The Paris Accord.
    Justin and John will survive on very good public sector pensions. The rest of us will get a years worth of EI and then learn where the local food bank is located

  19. e.a.f. says:

    Harvey, I’m sorry to inform you no political party in this province will be giving you an Order of B.C. medal. You truly have pissed off all the political parties! I consider it a sign of a doing a really good job.

    You and Rafe Mair really, really are/were a politicians/corporations worst night mare, if they aren’t doing things correctly. Old journalists don’t retire or die, they blog, blog, blog!

    (Response: Okay. How about an Order of Canada? Oops … I guess not one of those either! LOL! h.o)

  20. e.a.f. says:

    Part of the problem, or what I consider a problem, is the number of Indigenous Nations in this province, when it comes to this proposed legislation. Those in the Leg., mostly of European descent, seem to be under the illusion Indigenous nations speak with one voice, have one opinion, have one set of values. They don’t! If those politicians think its hard to obtain consensus amongst 10 provinces and 3 territories, wait until you have to find consensus amongst amongst the 198 First Nations who speak 30 different languages, with 60 dialects. In my opinion the politicians aren’t doing this for the First Nations. they are doing it for themselves, so they can feel better while screwing the First Nations over and not providing health centers on each reserve in this province, or adequate housing, or water. Now it may be said that is a federal responsibility, but if they’re going to do all this to “improve” the lives of Indigenous people, ……………….they might want to do a tad more than just pass a piece of legislation which can be removed by the next political party which has a majority.

    I was taught a very long time ago an apology was nothing. It cost the person giving it nothing, it means nothing, it impacts nothing. You want action, you want a remedy and an apology is not a remedy for being “screwed over”.

    (Response: Of course, getting any diverse groups to reach a comprehensive can be a challenge. Just imagine if you throw into the mix the provision that by saying NO to any project, any group in the mix opens itself up to HUGE financial compensation … without having to lift a finger to do any work! If it wasn’t so ludicrous, the deliberations within any group could make for a hilarious Monty Python comedy skit … with some noble, but naïve dedicated do-gooder trying to convince the rest why they should even bother getting up, studying, researching, evaluating, negotiating and working, instead of just getting rich on the generous COMPENSATION cheques that will otherwise just come their way. h.o)

  21. helena handcart says:

    Harvey. Your response had me scratching my head! I absolutely believe that the Jews have a right to live in their ancestral homeland. I just don’t see why that logic should not apply to our indigenous peoples. I will say this as a last word: You really are a master at stirring up opinion. It is great to see the usual suspect running around with their knickers on fire. Shalom.

    (Response: I actually have no problem with acknowledging indigenous peoples rights to SOME lands. should be involved, consulted in developments there and share the benefits of development as well. Let’s keep it real: First Nations leaders and peoples in remote areas should realize that resource exploitation and development and sharing the benefits holds the key to lifting themselves off dependence, welfare, and paternalistic relationships with the rest of the country. BUT the NDP/Greens are going too far … far too far … in giving ANY group VETO power over any decisions reached by government that may affect them (I don’t have that! Does anyone else???). And guaranteeing them “compensation” if simply don’t agree to go along government actions that may affect them in any way (I don’t have that! Does anyone else??) is simply ridiculous …and betrays the government’s public trust. h.o)

  22. 13 says:

    Harvey , the NW audio vault was so on point I decided to listen again. Turns out it was the noon hour on the audio vault. Well worth a few minutes of your time.

    (Response; Thanks… will try to get to it. h.o)

  23. harry Lawson says:

    Harvey,

    Great response to Helena handcart, i actually met her years ago, i really love and respect her. a great passionate lady.

  24. BMCQ says:

    Harvey – response to “Hell in A”

    Incredible !

    Thank you, no need to say more other than, I hope people read and paid serious attention to your most important History Lesson .

    I find it most distressing that in so many cases revisionists and others like the CBC, BBC, Corbyn, and so many other Anti Israel People like Corbin, UK Labour, and others in the EU and Canada will stoop to any level to find fault with Israel and the Jewish People .

    Someone I spoke to yesterday about this Blog Topic of yours suggested that with the recent Federal Election Results the Horgan, PM Justin’s, and so many more SJW and PC types in the Legal System, the Activist Judiciary, the Media, the Enviro’s, and other similar groups may feel emboldened and we may see more similar Pandering which may be very regressive, threatening, and in fact frighten off business and investment right across this country .

    They, whoever “They” are always say that we get the Government we deserve, well do we deserve the Horgan NDP, and the Federal PM Justin Liberals ?

    I suppose we do, someone always voted for them and we have many more years of their Wrong Minded and Punitive Legislation to endure, I hope those that voted for them are ecstatic .

  25. helena handcart says:

    OK, I’ll bite. I know that I said it was my last word but I cannot let Blustering Bob call me out like that.
    First a reply to harry: You are a very naughty boy. You promised never to tell anyone about our meeting. I’m shocked, I tell you.
    Now Harvey: I prefer a more reliable source than the collection of fairy tales known as the Bible. Whichever one of its various translations you choose to read. The earliest known reference to Israel is about 1200 BCE. Quote from Charles Krauthammer:
    “Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. ”
    So you are about 2000 years out. Still, it is a valid reason for recognizing the State of Israel, (and the rights of our indigenous brothers).
    I do try to keep my comments brief and infrequent, but my original meaning must not have been clear, perhaps I should drone on and on and on like some others on here.

  26. BMCQ says:

    As I type this I am looking up at my copy of “Things that Matter” by Charles Krauthammer a very special person who overcame a lot of personal hardship to become so much to so many people, he was a most unique, thoughtful, and interesting individual who I would have loved to have spent a few hours with .

    13

    I took your advice and listened to the Roy Green Segment . I am quite sure many Business Owners are unhappy, disenchanted, frustrated, and at the point they would consider a move south over the 49th, we already see evidence of that in Oil and Gas Companies but the fact is there are many in many different industries considering the same thing .

    I cannot imagine that with the most dismal track record of the UN on so many different issues how a country like Canada or any province especially B.C. could take anything the UN says or does with any any mount of respect or seriousness .

    I am very critical of Polling but I must admit I would really like to see how B.C. NDP Voters really feel about this proposed Legislation by Premier Horgan, surely there cannot be a very high percentage of NDP faithful support this can they ?

    With respect, I am really quite curious, just how much sense does this Legislation really make to you ?

  27. DBW says:

    12 different people including Harvey, have commented and it seems about split between those who share Harvey’s outrage and those who don’t.

    From the less outraged we have this

    “I’m not in agreement with a lot of this proposal. But I am in agreement with showing all indigenous peoples around the world the respect they deserve.”

    And from the outraged we have this

    “I actually have no problem with acknowledging indigenous peoples rights to SOME lands. they should be involved, consulted in developments there and share the benefits of development as well,” but…

    There is a lot of shared ground between the two groups – acknowledgement of Indigenous rights and concern about the process. How do we build on that common ground?

    As I see it, this legislation is meant to ensure that Indigenous people are consulted and do share in the benefits. I don’t think that is a major concern by most of us.

    The concern is around the meaning of the word CONSENT and the fear that it means a VETO and that would mean stunted resource development or blackmailing.

    First, I don’t share the same impression of our Indigenous people. They are part of our community. They don’t want to be reliant on handouts. They want to succeed and see their children and this province succeed as much as anybody. I don’t think they are out to stick it to the rest of us.

    But leave that aside. Let’s deal with the legislation. The legislation is meant to set up a process, a framework, an action plan. Almost the entire legislature, BC Liberals included, are in favour despite the obvious contentions that exist.

    And, that is because there is still a long ways to go before all the details are sorted. They see that the intent of the legislation – to give our Indigenous peoples a say in how government affects them including in education, health, justice etc. is the correct way to go. And, there will be much discussion to satisfactorily clarify what is meant by consultation and consent and how disputes are resolved.

    Harvey, you have done your job by bringing forward your concerns. Debate is essential.
    Our difference might just be in how much faith we have in the system. I believe we will see a clear and fair definition of the contentious issues. And if we do, it will be an improvement over what we are currently experiencing with court cases over consultation and compensation. It will not be the worst case scenarios that are being described by some of us here.

    (Response: The problem is not just the word “CONSENT” …it’s a entire phrase containing it …which reads obtaining “THEIR FREE, PRIOR AND INFORMED CONSENT (my CAPS) before adopting and implementing legislative or administrative measures that may affect them.” That’s pretty comprehensive … and I have absolutely no doubt that, if adopted, as soon as a contentious project comes up, First Nations will take that clause to Court …right up to the Supreme Court if necessary, arguing it gives THEM Veto. Why else would legislation require their “CONSENT”? And knowing the generous liberal record of the Courts in recent years, they will WIN …even if politicians say that was NOT the intent of the original legislation. That will not only endlessly delay and discourage investments here (there ARE already other countries with resources easier to deal with) and the second requirement … COMPENSATION … for almost any project anywhere in BC could cost BILLIONS to the taxpayers. Co-operation, involvement, consultation, shared benefits, jobs …YES… but there are just No sensible reasons to enact those dangers into law. h.o)

  28. BMCQ says:

    There has been much news on Canadian First Nations as of late .

    H.O. along with Vaughn Palmer have been two of the very few that have been honest, transparent, and informative on the NDP Horgan proposed First Nations Legislation regarding various types of development in B.C.

    https://theprovince.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-well-see-but-consent-to-first-nations-sounds-like-it-means-a-veto/wcm/ac02d9f5-0aae-49ab-946e-7515119c8330

    Did you ever stop to wonder why almost all at once NDP Premier John Horgan and his Brain Trust awarded a “VETO” to First Nations Indigenous People which may create and “END” to certainly and many critical Natural Resource Developments like Oil, Gas, LNG, Lumber, Fishing, Mining, Projects of any given kind while very soon after the Squamish First Nation announces their own Mega Project which will include “Over Sized” Residential and Commercial Apartment Towers being erected at the South end of the Burrard Bridge ?

    Then to add insult to injury the Squamish will have absolutely FULL Control over their development with NO oversite from ANY Federal, Provincial, or Municipal Government Planning or any other division of Government Regulator other than perhaps Inspections and Engineering etc.

    Should we wonder and question how Canadians of all different groups including Hard Working Contributing Tax Payers are LOST in all of this ?

    Should those Tax Payers not have any questions about Hypocrisy, Double Dealing, Manipulation, Dishonest, Devious, and more disgusting practices by those same Governments and First Nations ?

    Please explain to me how our Political Masters can even Begin to Square that Round Giant Steaming Cesspool of B.S. ?

    As NonCon might say, “You can’t make this stuff up” !

    What did Canadians do to deserve the Political Masters we have ended up with, can anyone help explain that ?

    “I am NOT a Robot but I am beginning to feel like a Fool”

  29. 13 says:

    So the Squamish Nation is about to solve the housing shortage . Hurrah, happy days are here again.
    Now I used to live on Laburnum St right beside the Billy Bishop Legion. Not to far removed from the area that is about to become ground zero. I was a renter .
    I wonder if a shovel would ever break soil if the residents of Kits Point needed to give
    “THEIR FREE PRIOR AND INFORMED CONSENT”.
    So before some PCKOOLAIDSUCKING individual reminds me that we didnt give the indigenous FREE PRIOR>>>>>consent before we drove them off their land and destroyed their way of life and then ruined what was left by way of residential schools .
    I get it. We did some awful things. We need to make up for misdeeds carried out by our forefathers. BALANCE and some level of commonsense is needed. Horgan has sold us down the tubes with this bit of feel good BS.

  30. Gene The Bean says:

    DBW – as usual, your messages of honesty, self reflection, inclusion and finding the middle ground are being shouted down by haters.

    (Edited …off topic)

  31. hawgwash says:

    I just don’t see why all the drama here.

    The Liberals went along with something which, if handled correctly could have been a major assault on the NDP.

    Horgan is not going to risk losing the non-indigenous vote, by relinquishing all and sundry, to the other side. I did want to use the phrase “cowboys and Indians” there but the world has gone to helena handcart.

    The sky is not falling.

    Yet.

    (Response: This proposed legislation brings should trigger all kinds of warnings … best summed up as “the law of unintended consequences” . If it is adopted ..I have NO doubt that British Columbian taxpayers, within just a few years, faced with hundreds of millions in EXTRA shakedown payouts .. and no doubt also HUGE reluctance by major investors from even looking at projects in BC … will be shouting “What the hell were those politicians at the time thinking of!!” And by the way … I get it … from the tremendously naïve political correctness NDP/Greens point of view …but where are the LIBERALS??? They’re just as naïve and so afraid of offending indigenous voters, they’re not even doing their Constructional JOB as the Official Opposition on this. Pathetic! And BC taxpayers and the BC economy will pay heavily for this if it goes through with the REQUIRED CONSENT clause as is. Mark my words! h.o)

  32. BMCQ says:

    I find it rather interesting that in the EU, the UK, the U.S., Australia, and even in Canada as a whole there is serious “Push Back” against the PC SJW Madness that has crept into past recent Leftist Liberal Governments yet the B.C. NDP seem to want to continue down that very odd SJW “Rabbit Hole” in their zeal to appeal to First Nations, Public Trough Dwellers, NGO’s, and other Special Interest Groups who really do not seem too concerned that Hard Working Tax Payers and far too many Pensioners Pay for ALL of their ill conceived ideas .

    I suppose if you do not produce enough to be forced to actually pay Income, Tax, Property Tax through Rental or Owned Real Estate, Gas Tax, Carbon Tax, other Tax on Tax, MSP Tax, and so many more you are happy to see the NDP take a few Dollars from the Hard Working People that seem to pay for everything and get nothing in return other than a new Tax .

    https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/news/tax-hikes-across-b-c-and-in-kamloops-set-for-2019-1.23568863

    I must agree that the Liberals are not exactly doing themselves Proud on this and I am going to guess that the reason for that is the fact that Society in General right across the Free World is so afraid about doing or saying something that may not be PC enough the SJW Special Interest Groups may send ANTIFA after you .

    It is shameful that we cannot challenge each other or in fact challenge proposed Legislation that we may find problematic . Whatever happened to “Dialogue”, argument, discussion, debate, what do we gain by shutting others down .

    Some of the most despicable, dishonest, and devious in our Society automatically resort to calling those that present a good argument opposed to proposed Legislation such as what the NDP are attempting to push down our throats “Haters, Racists, Misogynist, Xenophobic” and more simply because thy have nothing to offer to support their claims . Of course anyone with any intelligence see right through that silliness and they ignore it all .

    The Liberals probably are reluctant to call into question the NDP action on this Legislation and as has already been pointed out if handled properly the Liberals may get support from the General Public, even from NDP Supporters, that is how vile and potentially harmful this proposed Legislation is .

    I do not want to single DBW out on this but I am curious don’t you or anyone else for that matter find it concerning that the proposed NDP “Consent” Bill more or less “Vetos” almost any Project such as a Pipeline or perhaps even Site C whether you agree with it or not while at the same time Squamish are allowed to erect several Towers that will house 6,000 Residents without any Oversite at all ?

    Does that make sense ? Is it Fair?

    Then there is this, what about the potential for literally thousands of Law Suits ? the Cost? the Delays, the changes, and who pays for those Lawsuits if the Government is attempting to push through a Pipeline ? The Tax Payer that is who . Then there is this, WHO Pays for the Legal Beagles that represent First Nations ? The Tax Payer, that is who .

    Then consider this, just how many Hospitals, Universities, Pensioner Residences, Drug Rehabs, CT Scanners, MRI, and so much more could be implemented right across B.C., north, south, east, and west, and in between . Imagine a Major Cancer Clinic and Childrens Hospital in Prince George and so much more if the B.C. Government thought this through .

    Think of the $ Billions of Dollars lost if the NDP are allowed to enact this most regressive Legislation .

    Do we want this, do we need this, can we afford this ? Does any of this really make sense .

    It is now time for the B.C. Liberals, the CTPF, BCTPF, Municipalities, Media, and other Opposition Politicans to speak up on this before it is too late .

    (Response: Too many people, parties and organizations are so intimidated and afraid to speak up against ANYTHING that could offend First Nations … even when REAL fairness and equality demands it. And it’s the DUTY of the Liberals as Official Opposition to speak up and stand up. They’re clearly failing BC taxpayers on this one … and I’d bet also missing a golden opportunity to score some political points with the vast majority of British Columbians too! h.o)

  33. Leila Paul says:

    Dare I violate the strait jacket of inquisitive analysis of what has remained unchallenged for too long? Why does the Statute of Limitations not apply to “first nations” claims and treaties that have too long remained unfulfilled but still in force?

    What needs to be challenged and abrogated is the whole notion of “indigenous peoples”. In modern political parlance it is ridiculous to ascribe nationhood status for vague tribal affiliations. Those (elites) who have formed registries and established rules for their “nations” membership continue to benefit and the greatest benefit goes to those who control the tribal registries.

    My husband was largely Ojibwa (Chippewa) and he considered the preferential treatment of “self-determination” and distinct nationhood accorded to tribes, as purportedly indigenous first peoples, to be a scam.

    Another infinite absurdity exists in the notion of any mobile mammal to be indigenous as that implies an inability or unwillingness to explore, travel and acquire. Humans are an acquisitive and invasive (even predatory) species. As such humans remaining or being “indigenous” defies logic. Survival, as well as predation and acquisition, each requires migration as a necessary aspect throughout humanity’s presence on this planet.

    Unless one can demonstrate roots in the feet on individuals bound so deeply into the ground that they cannot move (whereby they’d either be devoured by another predator or wither and die), then the question must be asked: How, by any logical interpretation of “indigenous”, can any numerous and mobile group actually be exclusively “indigenous” to any one continent or region?

    As for those whom we’ve elevated to the status of “First Nations” which has also come to imply primarily Far East Asian, Mongolian, or Inuit, may I suggest some of you do a search on Kennewick Man. The reference is to skeletal remains of a man in Kennewick, Washington State, not too far off from B.C.

    The skeleton of this long deceased man was determined by the latest available dating techniques to be perhaps >9,500 yrs old. Kennewick Man’s Haplogroup (Hg or mtDNA) makes deeper analysis of his remains a potential threat to the exploitation of this continent by “first nations”. Those of you familiar with NAGPRA know why a Caucasian man of early presence here might frighten the political veto given to “first nations”.

    When Kennewick Man’s remains were found, immediately, the various first nations tribes in the region claimed him as one of their “elders” and demanded his skeletal remains be returned to first nations tribes immediately before any genetical analysis could be done. Analysis, they claimed, would be an affront to their tribal belief systems. The fact deeper analysis would benefit all of us was deemed irrelevant. Their professed belief systems demanded priority and satisfaction had to serve their interests – humanity’s knowledge be damned.

    The claim Kennewick Man was a tribal property and one of their “elders” was doubted by many of the archeo-anthropolists who were being denied the right – because of NAGPRA – to further investigate this man’s remains.

    NAGPRA allows first nations to claim and prohibit analysis of any skeletal remains discovered within or near their territories. NAGPRA also entitles first nations to numerous benefits that would be lost if they were proven to NOT have been uniquely “dispossessed” by Caucasian Europeans. NAGPRA gives first nations special status with veto power because they profess to be the FIRST or only early migrants. However, logical analysis compels re-thinking about whether the can logically be called “nations” by modern standards and especially not “first” nations.

    At the present, we remain prohibited from questioning the presence or even “first” presence in the Americas of Caucasoid peoples. Efforts to quash the Solutrean and Clovis theories, despite artifacts proving this a strong probability, remain prohibitive.

    Kennewick Man had a caucasoid skull. The first anthropologists to have access to the skeleton of Kennewick Man determined his matrilineal haplogroup to be X2a. Until recently, and possibly until the finding of Kennewick man, the only haplogroups recognized among first nations were A, B, C and D. These were (IMO mistakenly) believed to be exclusively of Far East Asian origin. In fact, my ancestry list of relatives includes many relatives, of Near Eastern semitic and Caucasoid origins, who have these matrilineal haplogroups.

    When I read of Kennewick Man’s mtDNA I was not surprised because my research and studies had convinced me long ago that the first migrants to the Americas were from, or traveled through, the Near East.

    X2 is now a rare haplogroup although it is among the most widespread globally. It was once very common in the Near East where it was believed to have originated about 60-thousand years ago. My haplogroup is X2 while Kennewick man is X2a likely indicating there was a generation of out-breeding where genetic mutations affected his Hg. My ancestors never left the Near East until recently so we continued, to a large exteng, mating with those of similar religious and tribal affiliations.

    Some of today’s first nations have significant clades and subclades (letters and numbers) assigned after the X2 mtDNA which shows interbreeding with other peoples, likely those who came LATER or perhaps concurrently!

    If interested in the concepts of the earliest migrants of the Americas (the “indigenous), research the Solutrean and Clovis hypotheses.

    The preceding is intended to demonstrate on a tiny amount of the available information indicating no single groups or nations have been or ever should be called “indigenous”. Everyone has migrated from somewhere to other places either from emergencies by invasions, forced population transfers by conquering empires, or because of natural climatic disasters.

    NAGPRA is U.S. law. We in Canada, however, seem somehow to be guilty in perpetuity of some vague notions of various but unique sins committed against those who claim to be “indigenous”. So we remain subservient to potentially harmful and unreasonable prohibitions or vetoes over federal or provincial decisions. We conply even though doing so might harm the “greater good” if the “indigenous” demand we forgo our rights.

    If the NDP and Greens of today are so subservient to the inanities of the U.N. then they deserve to be defeated and relegated to the dust bin of history – or preferably, oblivion.

  34. Leila Paul says:

    Challenging the “indigenous” claims of those who’ve won special status.

    PBS Nova video of Kennewick Man. Even the first ten minutes speak volumes in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxJ-FoawmNk

  35. Leila Paul says:

    Precedent: https://canliiconnects.org/en/summaries/46435

    “….limitation periods are applicable to all Aboriginal claims, including those based on infringements of treaty rights….”

    A majority of the Federal C.A. dismissed the First Nation’s appeal, finding no error in the Federal Court’s reasoning and decision. In the C.A.’s view, the motions judge properly applied the existing jurisprudence which confirms limitation periods are applicable to all Aboriginal claims, including those based on infringements of treaty rights. “The motion for reconsideration of the application for leave to appeal dismissed on March 9, 2017…is dismissed with costs in favour of the respondent, Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada.”

    (Response: I have no objection to First Nations’ pursuing in the Courts whatever issues/wrongs they feel should be challenged. But I expect governments to act responsibly in not only dealing with indigenous peoples but also not going overboard and granting rights and CONSENT/VETO privileges denied the rest of the population. h.o)

  36. BMCQ says:

    Leila

    I have a confession to make, I am a Hypocrite, I am no better than the B.C. Liberals and so many others I just criticized for not being forthright and honest by not calling out First Nations and other so called Minority Groups because I disagree with them and find fault with their stance actions on certain issues .

    I was earlier going to post my own thoughts on “Kennewick Man” but reconsidered because I was sure someone like Bean would once again call me A Racist, Bigot, Xenophobic, a Hater etc. so did not mention “K” Man .

    I therefore am no different than those I criticized by avoiding the issue myself . That is what we have now come to in our society, people are afraid to speak out in support of their beliefs right or wrong or somewhere in between . All of a sudden I can now see why tjecB.C. Liberals might be somewhat hesitant to speak out, what a sad state of affairs .

    Of course PC SJW Elite Politicians, Universities, Media, and others have done their best to “Red Wash” the Kennewick Man History but that is a debate for another day .

    Thank you for bringing up something I was so reluctant to point out, I am disappointed in myself, I cannot ever remember taking the cowards way out before perhaps I am coming down with something .

    Harvey – response to Leila

    I pointed out earlier that the proposed Horgan NDP Indigenous Veto will cost time, violent protests, alienation, injustice because of Activist Judge Rulings, Billions of Dollars in Gov Revenues through Tax and Royalties, it will have a dramatic affect on jobs and prosperity of workers, and it will affect Government Programs such as Health Care along with Pensions and our Standard of Living .

    I am sorry but we can not afford to have disgruntled First Nations seek out Court Action with Tax Payer Funded Lawyers willing to cost the Tax Payer Billions of Dollars just because . You know as well as I do that Indigenous Groups are not going to be in a hurry to accomplish anything as long as their Lawyers are being paid by someone else .

    The Federal and Provincial Governments right across this country other than the Horgan NDP B.C. Government must ensure that the “Notwithstanding Clause” is able to be invoked effectively and rapidly or Canada and its people will soon be up to our necks in a quagmire of Bureaucratic Bungling and Chicken Manure .

  37. DBW says:

    I am not sure if this is worth my time but here goes. BMCQ said this:

    “It is shameful that we cannot challenge each other or in fact challenge proposed Legislation that we may find problematic . Whatever happened to “Dialogue”, argument, discussion, debate, what do we gain by shutting others down.”

    I agree wholeheartedly. Yet, he includes that paragraph in the middle of – dare I say it –
    a rant which leaves absolutely no room for an alternate point of view.

    Here is the problem and I can only say this so many times. The legislation is in its earliest stages. Nobody knows its end result. Nobody is criticizing Harvey or BMCQ or Vaughn Palmer or anybody else for raising important issues. We need that.

    But, I do question the worst case scenarios, so let’s keep it real.

    The Canadian legislation stalled in the senate over the clarity of consent/veto.
    Jody Wilson-Raybould, Indigenous leader and Attorney-General at the time said a veto was inconsistent with Canadian law.
    Ellis Ross, Indigenous leader and BC Liberal MLA wants clarity on the issue of consent/veto.
    Tom Flanagan of the Fraser Institute didn’t seem to think a veto is possible.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-do-bc-first-nations-really-have-the-power-of-veto/

    As a former teacher I have seen how much more successful Indigenous students have become when Indigenous leaders are involved in curriculum development etc. I have no idea about health or justice or other areas but I imagine Indigenous leaders should be involved in the decision making there as well.

    There is more to this than just resource development. And I imagine resource development and all of that will take longer to figure. People can continue to be outraged and assume all the negative worst case scenarios. People can assume it will mean a veto and that Indigenous people will go out of their way to shut down every development project or blackmail us into poverty and our province will cease to exist.

    For now, I will remain a little more optimistic.

    (Response: Sadly, history has shown the time to stand up, oppose and STOP and/or CHANGE any questionable or possibly dangerous laws is BEFORE they get adopted and implemented…. and not after they are in force or even get ruled on as “legal” by the Courts … despite reality showing them to be TERRIBLY crippling, damaging and divisive. h.o.)

  38. Leila Paul says:

    Harvey, I agree with your conclusions and admire your insights and courage to discuss this.

    If we are to be “one nation” then we cannot be a potentially infinite number of nations or “communities”. That does not mean that people with similar beliefs and behaviors or manners of dress cannot celebrate their pride in their heritage. But above all we must recognize none of us is separate from the whole. We are different but united in our solidarity under our Canadian sovereignty from external organization like the U.N. and other such manipulative globalists.

    The more we are fragmented, socially and politically, the more likely it is that our sense of belonging to a nation will be crushed. All citizens must have equal rights with only legitimately elected officials voting on proposed legislation.

    Duties to one another should not allow for a hierarchy of “consent” over legislation that affects all within a province or the country.

    If B.C. capitulates to the U.N. by handing over its government’s sovereign rights to legislate on behalf of all its citizens equally, this country is doomed IMO.

    It seems inevitable that agitation will be a feature within each province as disparate groups compete with one another for the right to “consent” – which is implicit and de facto the right to forbid – the government from performing its duties.

    Rivalry for the right to approve or reject legislation results in inevitable battles and skirmishes that destroy harmony, peace of mind, the pursuit of a meaningful life shared with one another respectfully and in unity.

    If we are all to be equal, then no group or province should be given special or unique status. We cannot have multiple “nations” within a nation. It’s a contradiction in every imaginable way.

    Tribalism must be left in the past.

    Self-imposed isolation that often accompanies tribalism is potentially similar being aloof. Seeking the ability to quash governmental legislation reeks of supremacy.

    Such a singular surrender by the B.C. legislature threatens us all. No tribe, claiming to be a “nation or first nations” should ever be permitted to override governmental decisions-making powers.

    Most especially, we must never, never allow any province within our Canadian federation to ever begin the slow crawl to subservience and subjugation to the utterly corrupt and unelected U.N.

    (Response: You really have to wonder: Where is Liberal Leader Andrew Wilkinson on this? Where is the Official Opposition? This is an issue the voters MUST be warned about, must be involved in and could easily be shown how dangerous it could be to BC’s economy … investment and development opportunities … but even though it has been handed to them on a platter, they have been “nowhere” to be seen in expressing ioutrage or even raising concerns …as the Official Opposition is supposed to do! h.o)

  39. nonconfidencevote says:

    @ Leila Paul

    Interesting information.
    I dont think it can be disputed that the “1st nations” were hunter gatherers ethier voluntarily migrating for food or fleeing persecution.

    If we extrapolate that back to the very beginning of humanity….
    Perhaps we should be extracting the DNA of the very first human remains found in Africa that raised a gnawed bone to the sky as a club.

    Because they, ultimately, are the 1st of the 1st nations…..

    Sign our lands over to the people of north Africa and damn all the lawyers I say…..

  40. Gene The Bean says:

    Laila – where to begin…..

    “Challenging the “indigenous” claims of those who’ve won special status.”

    Any indigenous person I have ever met would be disgusted by this comment.

    Winning? You must have selective historical memory syndrome.

    Special Status? A term given to native peoples by immigrants to better define how “they” are to be treated and dealt with within a system that is so perversely slanted against them that just surviving is considered a victory.

    No matter how many of you old white Canadians that like to partake in Canada’s second favourite winter sport, bashing natives, you will never break an aboriginal persons spirit in regards to right and wrong. Ya, be afraid my peeps, it might cost you an extra $3.00 to not have a native kid have diarrhea for the first ten years of his life due to contaminated drinking water. But you’d rather have the three bucks. Ya, I get it. That’s why I think so highly of you.

    Harvey, you say, “But I expect governments to act responsibly in not only dealing with indigenous peoples but also not going overboard and granting rights and CONSENT/VETO privileges denied the rest of the population. h.o)”

    Your comment shows the typical flim/flam argument. You ‘expect’ governments to act ‘responsibly’ – as long as it doesn’t cost you anything, right? The ‘rest of the population” already has all the “rights and privileges”. Native populations have had their ‘rights and privileges’ stolen and abused.

    It pains me to say this but there are two countries in the world that seem to take pleasure in abusing their indigenous populations – Canada and Australia. Even the Americans treat their native populations with considerably more understanding and respect than Canadians. Let that sink in.

    Monday and a new topic cant come fast enough.

    (Response: Geez! Surely there’s enough to discuss/disagree/debate in what I do say without having to lie and/or invent more! Where and when did I EVER say I’m in favour of addressing indigenous claims “as long as it doesn’t cost me anything”? Surely you can make your point(s) without lying. h.o)

  41. e.a.f. says:

    Was just reviewing some of the comments, and had to laugh, omg, BMCQ, your comment about “leftists” “caving” in to “special interest” groups. One could conversely ask, why do the Conservatives and Liberals “cave” in to “special interest” groups. that is how we got tax loop holes, tax exemptions, deals for those rich enough to put pressure on politicians.

    In Nanaimo, I asked why the Band lands were so broken up. An old timer advised me, because lumber companies wanted a stretch of ocean front so they moved the band to other land and gave the ocean front to the lumber company. If you go around and check you’ll see how First Nations usually came in second to the special interests of corporations, etc. Lets not forget all the “land deals” which Dept. of “Indian Affairs” made over the years, to the detriment of First Nations. The “special interests’ of mining companies caused mercury poisoning of the Indigenous People at Grassy Narrows and it still hasn’t been cleaned up. How special is that? after 25 years still not cleaned up. the mercury hasn’t been cleaned up because it will cost a fortune and the “non Indigenous special interests” aren’t interested in paying taxes for it so the “special interests” — health of the Indigenous people comes in second, as usual.

    We have to go no further back than el gordo and the land deal with Crown Isle, now that is a special interest, Stan Hagen went to offer Crown isle land, at $350K. the community thinking this was their park land was out raged. it went to ” sealed bid” Crown Isle bid $1M and change. the community was only able to raise $650K. My question later was, why wasn’t this land kept to settle First Nation’s land claims in the area? Some one advised, Campbell sold a lot of the better land to “whites” before we got to the serious settlements, all over the province.

    So when we get to special interest groups, lets keep it real, as Harvey says. when its corporate or financial elite interests, its for the good of the economy and country. when it works for working people or visible minorities, its “special interests”.

    I think this proposed leg. is a mine field which won’t benefit anyone in the long run because it can be undone by any further government or by the Supreme Court of Canada. In my opinion, its a political statement, but to call it “special interests” lets not open that can of worms. lets not forget how Harper’s government made “deals” with those “caught” hiding their money over seas. Those financial elites, they just had to pay the money back, no fines, no interest. How special is that. If most of us were in the hospital and are late filing their income tax, we’re fined.

    Leila Paul, glad to see you back. May not agree with everything you write, but you bring an interesting perspective to the debates.

    non confidence, o.k. made me laugh. When we come to “tribalism”, we do all tend to forget we come from the same original people. Wiki advises there are 3M differences between us in our genome. However, we all share 99.7% of the same DNA in the human race. We share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, our closest relative outside the humans. Then when you look at pigs there is some closeness also, hearts, other organs, etc.

    So here we are arguing and killing all over the world about 0.01% of our DNA. Not worth it in my opinion. of course there is the religion thing, but that’s another column for Harvey

  42. hawgwash says:

    DBW and nonconfidencevote, whether I agree with you or not, is moot. You have done a good job of presenting alternate dialogue and have done so with calm.

    Easy and entertaing reading, thank you.

    As for some of the others, well, it seems to matter not what the topic, it is all cut and paste from previous posts and as Abe Lincoln said; “He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know.”

    Now then, when does Patrick Watson step up and speak for the first fishes, whales, bears, huckleberries and cedars, which have truly been overrun and deserve to have their habitat returned, yet have no voices or significant legislation.
    How far do we carry this?

  43. Leila Paul says:

    @ DBW –

    The very fact that the idea of stripping government’s of their authority empowered by the consent of the people is in itself a frightening fact. You say it is just being discussed and may not become activated.

    I ask what about all the “Agenda” propositions put out by the U.N. that later were passed and cannot be rescinded unless the blessed demise of the U.N., as it now functions, is brought about.

    How much discussion was there of Agenda 21, or Agenda 2030 or the Global Compact for Migration which , when read carefully, the Compactstrips nations of their rights to exercise their Immigration obligations to existing taxpayers and citizens.

    Young country that we are, we have a legacy to all peoples and generations, now and in the past, who made this country a destination welfare migrant attraction.

    When so many forms or topics of speech are prohibited, suddenly it’s to be acceptable to talk of destroying the essential integrity of a provincial government. After all – it’s just talk.

    No. We can discuss ideas and feelings and sentiments and preferences and fears and hopes. But never must serious ‘just talk’ take place about destroying a democratically elected legislature.

    We are are on the slippery slope and talk of this nature only greases the slope and plunges us more quickly into talk that could erupt.

    Whether it takes the form of violence or simply other provincial legislatures also coming under attack to be stripped of their duties and obligations – consequences must be foremost.

    To prevent the fragmentation of Canada ever occurring we must stand up and ask “first nations” to join us – as ONE NATION.

    All groups who believe themselves different from other Canadians have their rights to celebrate their heritage. But when it comes to ruling the ‘other people’ of this country they must run for office and be elected.

    Meanwhile even the notion of “separate but equal” has long been shown to be a fallacy. Those who wilfully self-segregate must stop doing so and accept the rest of Canada.

    Why would new immigrants ever integrate if they see “first nations” being given more and more power and unwarranted political powers – all while they’ve continued lamenting their losses as though it had only been a one way victimization.

    The idea of “first nations” ruling any legitimate legislative body is the kind of talk that must stop!

    It must be treated with the contempt it deserves.

  44. Leila Paul says:

    @ Gene the Bean

    Allow me to remind you that my husband had enough Ojibwa (Chippewa) that if he’d believed it was right he could have been granted membership in that “separate nation”.

    It was he who enlightened me about the bloodshed between tribes and the brutal means of one “first nation” killing off another “first nation” some to the extent that their tribe may have become extinct.

    Let’s drop this fantasy that “first nations” tribes were all benevolence and positive spirituality and only the “whites” were violent. I suggest you need to do some reading WITH COMPREHENSION AND RETENTION.

    You also unfortunately make unnecessary statements that serve no purpose but to bring allusions of skin colour into the dialogue when otheres of us are taking of political equality. To quote you:

    No matter how many of you old white Canadians that like to partake in Canada’s second favourite winter sport, bashing natives, you will never break an aboriginal persons spirit in regards to right and wrong. Ya, be afraid my peeps…

    Is it possible you think that kind of talk improves relations between Canadians? Do you think your comments respect the foundational principles which our nation has struggled to fulfill for its honorable goal of being color-blind and treating a person as an equal?

    Perhaps you’re just being provocative or perhaps you are a provocateur and would like to incite greater fears or perhaps even hostilities. If so, I plead with you to refrain from such an approach.

    If your argument is valid, it should stand on its meritorious points and these should be presented in a respectful tone.

    This is a critical time in our country’s history and it comes after a confusing and disappoint election, or two bizarre elections, to be more accurate.

    Let us all use consequential reasoning and consider that words often seize our thoughts and incite wrongful actions. Let’s all take a deep breath and speak and act with the utmost respect for our hopefully united country.

    And let us nurture that hope with thoughtful words without fear of name-calling and slurs. It should not require courage to be firm in our protection of our unity as ONE NATION.

    For those who have welcomed me back, let me say wherever I was I had my iPad and was with you all the while.

    Harvey has created a wonderful online community in this blog and I never want to miss a column and all your comments.

  45. Gene The Bean says:

    Harvey, it was clearly a rhetorical question, I didn’t accuse you of anything and surely you can see that. As for lying, well, all the comments are here and in black and white. Only an imbecile would try to say someone said something when it is all here to see.

    “So when we get to special interest groups, lets keep it real, as Harvey says. when its corporate or financial elite interests, its for the good of the economy and country. when it works for working people or visible minorities, its “special interests”.
    Truer words have never been spoken EAF.

    (Edited..off topic)

    Bring on Monday….

  46. hawgwash says:

    e.a.f. “Grassy Narrows.”
    So, what will the remedy to finding traces of lead in OUR drinking water?
    There are no more hands to sit on.
    I know, I know; (Edited … off topic).

  47. 13 says:

    Gene just read your reply to Leila/Harvey.
    25 lines
    line 23 was spot on re the Americans (Not Trumpistanians) behaving better than Canadians. A bit racist when you refer to “theirs or ours” I prefer to think of “them” as Canadians. The sooner we stop hyphenating the better off everyone will be

  48. BMCQ says:

    Leila

    Comments to DBW and Bean .

    Excellent ! Both of those comments should be reprinted and broadcast in every possible Media Outlet right across Canada!

    Every Canadian Resident and Citizen, Politicians of all Brands, the Legal Community, the Judiciary, First Nations People and their Leadership, and all Special Interests need to familiarize themselves with your comments .

    All of them/us could learn a lot from what you have stated .

    A Tip of My Panama Hat to You !

    Harvey

    Your Topic here is so very important to all Canadians now and far into the future, we cannot allow ourselves to be hood Winked and taken advantage of by Politicians who live in a world of PC gone mad, imbecilic symbolism and Tokenism, a great job as usual .

    DBW

    As always, you contributed greatly to this Blog Topic with some very thoughtful commentary, thank you .

    (Response: I really wonder where the Opposition and the media are on this. With so much at stake in terms of costs and negative effects on the economy and investment … maybe the public should be calling their offices and wondering why neither are doing their jobs. h.o)

  49. e.a.f. says:

    Grassy Narrows is an e.g. of how Canadians and their government ignored the issue of mercury in the water. not just the water people drank, but their food. People in Grassy Narrows fished. A lot of what they ate was contaminated also. It was not until Japanese scientists came over to investigate did the people know what was causing all their health issues. Now all these decades later, there still has not been a clean up. So when it comes to whose ‘special interest’ have been ignored and whose have been addressed, the answer there is clear.

    The lead found in our water, isn’t near as dire as what happened in and is still happening in Grassy Narrows, were mercury poisoning is a way of life and the mining company and the government’s interest were paramount. Generation, after generation subjected to mercury poisoning…………….how special………..

    of course I don’t think this piece of leg. is going to solve any of the real issues facing Indigenous People in this province. Its not going to help them attain better health care, schools, jobs, etc. its going to make a lot of lawyers a lot of money and a lot of beurocrats a lot of jobs.

  50. Leila Paul says:

    @ eaf,

    I share your feelings – in fact despair and sorrow – that we have allowed our governments to escape accountability for contamination of essential life sources, such as water. It is tragic it had to happen to anyone. I am not indifferent and know of the shameful injuries done to all modern day people some of whom identify as indigenous tribes.

    But I’d suggest it’s not merely indigenous persons who suffer. All water flows and circulates so that eventually no one escapes consuming contaminated waters.

    A comment was made by Gene, I think, that U.S. powers treat their first nations better than Canada. I have personally observed that to be false.

    I worked as a reporter in the upper peninsula (UP) of Michigan where nearly every town in the UP still retained the names of its native tribes. I saw the conditions they had to live with but here is the essential BUT. Everyone in the UP was affected.

    Everyone globally is eventually affected by anything that contaminates our essential needs. Rarely do any towns or cities live behind impermeable walls where even their food, soil and water and air escape contamination.

    We should all lament this – not only for what it has done to indigenous communities but to all of us and future generations.

    Many regions are undertaking sincere efforts to remove contaminants, but we have a burgeoning global population. Too little is said of the fact we have seemingly unbearable choices to make. How do we fairly limit population growth for it is humans who are the instigating force and source of all contaminations – not just corporations (usually led by humans, I believe). I do not presume to propose answers but our leaders must find effective solutions.

    One answer I do have, to a question too rarely asked: It is NOT the U.N. that will effectively correct global problems of any nature nor of any magnitude. Each of us must find our own remedies locally and nationally with responsible governments that no longer evade their duties.

    I know about the hardship of natives for my husband was (as mentioned) born and raised in the UP, in Hulbert. Population then was 450 persons. As a youth, he had to hunt for his family’s food and their well water was always a cause for concern. Most residents were not “first nations” but just common folk – ordinary Americans.

    In the UP, the mining conglomerate, Cleveland Cliffs Industries – that extracted what it wanted and then left – at the time had been strip mining and much of the water for all UP residents had been affected. Logging companies had also stripped many of the magnificent trees. But we all share blame for humans tend to think short term – including those who identify as indigenous tribes.

    Nothing happens to only one side in an impending disaster. There are those who violate and then those who silently stand by even if they know the short term consequences. And too few discuss, the most important aspects – the long term consequences.

    But I do believe this. When people begin to set themselves apart from others around them and blame their closest neighbours for their misfortunes, past and present, it diminishes our abilities to work together to find remedies.

    The past is done and cannot be changed. Tribal anger against wrongs perceived as only one way suffering is a fallacy. All humans have suffered at the hands of others.

    Looking forward in unity is the only way we can find remedies and hold to account those governments who, out of vanity, ignorance, or the greed for power, have catered to blocks of votes instead of fulfilling their leadership obligations for the good of all.

    B.C. has a strong hold on the minds of many Canadians and others outside the country. It is a province gifted with great thinkers and courageous people. Harvey and those on this blog are examples of people struggling to identify threats to the common good and find remedies.

    Do not be distracted by rehashing old wounds. Ignite action in the thinkers and leaders of B.C. and perhaps the rest of Canada will notice. I believe we’ll find common cause by watching how the B.C. legislature resists U.N. interference.

    I’d even call the U.N.’s unilateral presumptuous grab of power in many areas to be tyranny!

    And yet our national and provincial governments (as do other nations) do no utter a peep in complaint or in defense of their peoples’ interests and freedoms.

    The U.N. must not be allowed to displace BC’s legislative sovereign rights for, if the U.N. succeeds with BC, we cannot know what may follow.

    Today’s BC Premier may be weak and some MLAs may succumb to the hopes of getting the votes of those who identify as first nations.

    If they succeed, the ramifications for other provinces and all of Canada do not augur well.

  51. 13 says:

    Take eafs last paragraph and add this leg. will send money, jobs, investment , fleeing British Columbia to to other jurisdictions (USA) and that sums up another Horgan/Trudeau debacle.
    PS look for trudeau to attend the Grey Cup LOL

  52. DBW says:

    At the risk of being called a PCKOOLAIDSUCKING individual, could I make one more stab at this because I am not liking the turn this discussion has taken.

    Harvey keeps wondering about Andrew Wilkinson and the BC Liberals. Here is Wilkinson’s twitter feed where he addresses his support for reconciliation and the intent of the legislation.

    https://twitter.com/Wilkinson4BC/status/1187798989560639488

    Notice that he does have some concerns about what some of the terms may mean which he addresses in more detail here.

    https://www.radionl.com/2019/10/28/41708/

    Pretty weird that this PCKOOLAIDSUCKING individual (I am owning this term) is defending Andrew Wilkinson but here I am. Of course there are issues that need to be clarified. That happens with all legislation. And when the legislation was introduced, Ellis Ross, an Indigenous leader, was the MLA who asked those hard questions. And there will be more to come as this legislation moves along. That is exactly what we want from the Opposition. But they are doing it without some of the venom that has started to crop up here.

    I can’t be bothered going up the page to cut and paste comments, but there were several that denigrated our First People not just the legislation. For example, and I am paraphrasing, First Nations people will use a veto to shake us down or demand compensation so they don’t have to lift a finger. And when they do something like propose a 6000 unit housing project, the assumption is they don’t care about the rest of the community.

    e.a.f. is right. Big corporations are seen as some kind of saviour; everybody else is a special interest.

    On top of that, some are now using the 25000 year old KMan as some kind of proof that reconciliation for the wrongs of the past 250 years is unnecessary.

    Reread Wilkinson’s twitter feed folks. He is absolutely correct. Bill 41 is important. Yes, at this time it has some issues that need to be resolved. But I am hopeful that with all three parties plus our First Nations working together, we will be able find the balance that our province needs to move forward.

    (Response: Wilkinson’s remarks are political pablum: composed of easy-to-swallow apple-pie type rhetoric. Note he says NOTHING about the VETO or even definition of CONSENT. The Liberals should LEAD the fight on this … supporting consultation, involvement and participation … but NOT anything that could be construed in ANY Court as agreeing to “REQUIRED” consent or granting a VETO to ANY group or community … except duly elected members of the legislature. h.o)

  53. Leila Paul says:

    Calling Wilkinson’s remarks “political pablum” is a generous description.

    Anyone who sees substance and trustworthiness or certainty where Wilkson can be held accountable is falling into the calculated trap of wishy washy nice talk.

    It seems to me, someone who likes the way Wilkson straddles the fences might be the kind who likes it when someone sucks up to them – just to placate and appease them.

    That kind of ambiguous political jibber jabber is so overused, I’d be surprised if well informed voters cater to Wilkison future hopes and goals. And I’d dare say those are not to serve the long terms interests of the larger public.

    As for the “venom” that has been alluded to – that seems to be coming from those who favor surrendering to the UN just so they can get revenge for perceived wrongs they have suffered.

    Funny, I thought the war with natives had ended long, long ago. Sometimes when a group feels aggrieved there is no end to what will satisfy them that they’ve extracted their pound of flesh in return.

  54. Leila Paul says:

    B.C. IS A TEST CASE FOR THE U.N. – THE O&O TOOL OF THE SAUDIS.

    Harvey, I apologize for this but I can no longer hold back what Canadians have a “right to know”.

    When I think of the U.N. this is what comes to mind: Saudi Arabia as one archetype of those who run the global scam for a billionaire’s club who enjoy the torment of people already impoverished and suffering.

    What are the characteristics?

    Brutal patriarchy; vicious homophobia; butchers who slaughtered a highly respected Saudi journalist, Khashoggi in Turkey (doing the seemingly impossible by making Erdogan look good); the slow agonizing tortured deaths of countless children in Yemen, not to mention adults; double-dealing with Israel whom they’ve now appeared to befriend but will be sure to betray (like they did Khashoggi) at a future opportune time – and they’re setting up to use the Palestinians they’ve neglected for 71 years.

    When I think of the Saudis, I think of paranoia and malignant contrivances.

    This whole issue which Canadian “first nations” have seized upon to whack the “gulty” non-first nations in BC and Canada, is only a smoke screen and Canadian first nations are playing into the hands of the Saudis.

    Part of the goal of “restoring” lands and “reconciliation” is a smokescreen. They are setting in motion strategies to create unending wars USING peoples who believe they have been dispossessed.

    In the case of the Saudis, they profess to sympathize with so many, especially the unending claims of Palestinians.

    I can say this because I have been Palestinian.

    Today I can a Canadian with personal knowledge of the P.R. firms paid for by the Saudis to creating unending strategies of seeking alliances with first nations here and elsewhere.

    Today I am a sovereign Canadian fearful of falling back into the culture that told me “cut your tongue” when I dared ask a question about hypocrisy as a child.

    (Edited..getting way off topic.)

    If the UN – aka the thugs of Saudi Arabia and their buddies – succeed in subjugating BC to their will then they’re well on their way to creating a precedent where they dictate more of the misery they’ve imposed on their own people and other helpless souls.

    (Edited…off topic)

    So it is up to BC voters and taxpyaers to take this step and block the Saudi Owned and Operated UN from dominating BC.

    Then it is up to the rest of us.

  55. DBW says:

    Harvey, the Liberals are talking about CONSENT. I posted this link earlier perhaps you missed it.

    https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-mla-and-haisla-leader-poses-questions-on-undrip

    The sub headline reads: Ellis Ross pressed for a more specific definition of consent at great length.

    I am sorry that Wilkinson and Ross aren’t displaying the same outrage in their struggle to seek clarity as some of you here.

    Leila

    If this is your starting point,

    “Funny, I thought the war with natives had ended long, long ago. Sometimes when a group feels aggrieved there is no end to what will satisfy them that they’ve extracted their pound of flesh in return.”

    then, I concede. Even if I knew how to respond to that, I doubt it would be worth my time. This PCKOOLAIDSUCKING individual is checking out.

    (Response: Yes, I read it … and read it again. There is NOTHING there ..beyond acceptance of the overall Bill “in principle” that states, commits or even pontificates on the CONSENT/VETO aspects of the legislation … pro or con … that would hold up before the voters, in Parliament or in Court. NOTHING. h.o)

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