NDP/Horgan Betray MAJOR Election Promise!

Can’t wait to see how NDP supporters and spin doctors try to work their way out of this one!  A blatant cynical rape of MILLIONS OF taxpayers’ dollars … to be pumped from taxpayers right into the bank account of the NDP itself!

It totally breaks a MAJOR plank and promise of the NDP … the party of the people,  claiming to represent the poor, the working and middle classes … to get BIG corporate and union money out of BC politics and elections and funding of BC political parties … WITHOUT RAIDING THE hard-working taxpayers’ PUBLIC purse to do it.

They lied.

What the NDP did NOT tell us is they would replace those VOLUNTARY sources of BIG bucks pumped into BC’s political parties by a huge INVOLUNTARY tax grab from the citizenry.

Surely, transferring PUBLIC TAX money to political parties WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC APPROVAL  is worse than allowing those who  OPENLY WANT TO GIVE to do so.

In fact, Premier John Horgan SPECIFICALLY vowed during the election campaign that giving taxpayers’ money to political parties would NOT happen!

“What we propose is that Elections B.C. will look across the country and around the world at the best way to make sure that only individuals are paying for our political process and election process,” Horgan said during an interview on CHNL Kamloops.

The legislation introduced Monday by the NDP betrayed that promise on TWO counts: the taxpayer funding Horgan vowed would NOT be used IS in the Bill; and the Elections BC review Horgan vowed WOULD be set up was not.

So … over the next five years (at least) an estimated $28 MILLION pulled out of the public’s pockets, piggy banks and bank accounts to pay taxes we thought would fund education, health, day care, transportation, environmental works etc will instead be GIVEN by the NDP government to the NDP itself, as well as the Liberal  Party and even make instant millionaires out of their allies keeping the NDP in power, the Green Party as well. The size of each party’s public ripoff will be based on popular vote in the last election.


No wonder Horgan refused to take questions Monday at the announcement of the NDP government’s plan to go back on its word.  Pressed by reporters Tuesday, Horgan tried to explain the NDP repeated misleading of the public on the topic during the election campaign:

““I’m owning up to what I said before the campaign;  I don’t want you to think that I’m running away from this because I’m not,” said Horgan. “But it is not what you are making it out to be. This is a transition fund and will be gone at the end of this mandate.”

Ooooh! It’s a “transition fund”!

Diverting PUBLIC TAX FUNDS into party bank accounts for up to FIVE YEARS??????

Some “transition” period!

No doubt they’ll announce a “promise” to end of it just before the NEXT election.

And they wouldn’t lie to us, would they?

Harv Oberfeld

(Reminder: Get First Alerts of all new postings on this blog by following @harveyoberfeld on Twitter. No spam … just First Alerts of new topics. And you can hear an interview I did on this topic here: http://www.howestreet.com/2017/09/26/didnt-take-bc-ndp-long-to-lie-to-voters/ )

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51 Responses to NDP/Horgan Betray MAJOR Election Promise!

  1. Helena Handcart says:

    Does anyone really think that tax dollars are not already going to political parties? The tax credit for political contributions is well established. If it will get rid of the massive corruption that prevailed under the last government, I’ll be happy to pay an extra $8 a year. As far as Horgan breaking his promise is concerned, I don’t think this will be the last time that it happens. That’s the game, unfortunately. Campbell and BC Rail/HST spring to mind. We all splutter with indignation, the get back to business as usual.

    (Response: You may be happy to pay an extra $8 …or $80 … a year to political parties. But what right do YOU or the government have to FORCE me to and 4,000,000 other British Columbians to do so????? Political contributions …like charity contributions … should be voluntary. ESPECIALLY when a politician/party PROMISE that’s what they will do and PROMISE NOT to hit up the taxpayers involuntarily!!! h.o)

  2. Keith says:

    I’m not against public funding of political parties, didn’t have a problem when Chretien did it and I wouldn’t have had a problem if Horgan had been up front, however, he wasn’t. Add the sleazy “we’ve always done it” justification for the recent golf game donations, Horgan and the gang are starting to look at least as bad as the liberals for hypocrisy.

    It’s only going to be a “transition” while a committee determines whether the subsidy should continue. Want to take a guess on what the committees decision will be.?

    And if the NDP promised electoral reform comes to pass, will there be another “ transitional funding ” for political parties.?

    (Response: Exactly! And not only did Horgan/NDP promise one thing to the voters and then do another … he/they have the gall to try to get taxpayers to fund them for five years and then even try to get ANOTHER election promise out of it!!! h.o)

  3. DBW says:

    I won’t defend Horgan but I will ask what people think of the overall legislation, especially if the tax subsidy is transitional.

    Politicians are famous for not following through on promises. (Spin coming: at least it’s not the HST.) I want to judge what they do. Not what they said they would do or not do.

    Overall, the legislation looks pretty good and can always be tweaked down the road.

    I can change my mind if you convince me otherwise.

    (Response: If it’s so good…why didn’t Horgan and the NDP say THIS is what they would do. Had they done that and received a mandate …no problem. But to go on air or say repeatedly ONE thing and do the OPPOSITE is unacceptable and inexcusable! Again …remember how soundly Campbell was condemned and the price Che paid for doing exactly that on the HST! h.o)

  4. Gene The Bean says:

    Much better if they would have just kyboshed the entire donation thing. $500 personal donation limit – end of story.

    This reeks of NDP back-roomer policy and as usual, they hang their leader out to dry. You could tell Horgan was not 100% behind this – but he has to wear it.

    As I said before, Horgan should have cleaned house. Waaay to many anchors within the nether regions of the NDP.

    Strike two.

    (Response: I don’t dare to tell the experts what the best system would or should be. BUT when I am told THIS is what a party WILL do and THIS is what a party WILL NOT do …and then, after getting into power, they REVERSE everything, they no longer are respecting the public …or their mandate. h.o)

  5. 13 says:

    To any BC Liberal mla. Remember how your lack of understanding voters hatred of tolls. Yes it cost you an election win. Here’s your chance for payback. Whenthe NDP pass this new law let’s call it Horgans whopper. The BCL should refuse to take the tax payers money If they can’t refuse donate the tax payers cash to the food bank and some environment cause
    See if Andy has the guts to do the right thing and follow the Liberal lead

  6. skidder says:

    So what else is new…Politicians lie. Promises are lies. Arrogance and duplicity abound. I OBJECT to any of my money supporting any party, unless I decide to do it.
    Horgan and his higher purpose person at his side, yesterday showed us what is to come. Who believes this tax grab will end in five years..raise your hand.

    (Response: You touch on a real problem of our political system: credibility. Is it any wonder when so few turn out to vote in so many elections/jurisdictions …especially young people … when politicians are seen (and too often prove) they are liars. This is NOT a matter of making promises …and then enacting them right away: this is promising ONE thing …and then doing the OPPOSITE. Disgraceful. h.o)

  7. D. M. Johnston says:

    I think not.

    How do you want to fund political parties?

    If you don’t, be prepared for the consequences of major corruption as we see in the USA.

    Democracy costs money and if the some comes from the public purse, so be it.

    Personally, I would have gone further, including limiting of signs and drastic change for political advertising in the electronic media.

    Personally, I am more upset at our MLA Ian Paton (Delta South) who refuses to reign his seat on Delta Council strictly for political reasons and nary a word from the media about this.

    Also, civic politics is out of control and completely corrupt and nothing done there.

    I’m sorry a paltry sum involved is a small price to pay to keep some semblance of democracy in this province, especially after 16 years of “Pay To Play” and the billions that cost taxpayers.

    (Response: This really isn’t an issue of HOW to fund politics” it’s about TRUTH. When a politician or party says and promises one thing, but then does the opposite after being elected ..we should ALL be repulsed and offended. Remember Campbell’s NO HST??? Other jurisdictions have public funding of elections etc …nothing wrong with that IF politicians (especially the party LEADER!) say in advance of being elected they would do so and then obtain a public mandate. But to say/promise one thing..and do another …is disgraceful. h.o)

  8. 13 says:

    So far the green dp have talked the talk but they are not prepared to walk unless it’s on a golf course with a cash for access theme.
    BCGEU union president
    Nice shot John. 300 yards down the middle. Speaking of 300
    What say we (fill in the union demand of your choice).
    Yes indeed . Seems that the NDP are not as clean as kleenex when it come to political corruption

  9. G. Barry Stewart says:

    There are lies and then there are LIES. Comparing this “cup of coffee” charge to that of the HST hit (or BC Rail sale) is hardly a balanced debate.

    As well: all parties get a fair share of the spoils. The BC Liberals will get an even bigger ka-ching, as they won the most votes. Will they hold their noses and partake of the meal — or will they refuse to eat unless it’s on a $5,000 plate?

    It’s still a problem for credibility, I’ll agree. We’ll see how the overall record of NDP/Green alliance shakes out in the coming months and years.

    In the meantime, any Lower Mainlanders who really feel burned by this action can achieve balance in their lives by taking a toll-free ride on the Port Mann or Golden Ears bridges.

    “Revenge driving” might become a new BC Lib pastime.

    (Response: Guess Oxford will have to update its Dictionary:”Small lies are when they are done ….even if proven … by a person/political party one likes/agree with: BIG LIES are when spoken by someone one does not like/agree with.” h.o)

  10. 13 says:

    GTB Please update your list
    Fast ferries
    Glens deck
    Election funding scam

  11. DBW says:

    (… remember how soundly Campbell was condemned and the price he paid for doing exactly that on the HST! h.o)

    Yes, Harvey, I do. Time to roll out the unlikely bedfellows of Teileman and Vander Zalm?

    The legislation has been introduced, not passed. The Liberals can try to have this particular portion of the bill amended. If they actually want to.

    And to help them, if people are truly annoyed at this “outrage”, then we should be doing something more than sputtering on blogs.

    Personally though I am more concerned about how they balance their budget ($7M/year isn’t going crush us) than I am at this “betrayal”.

    Hopefully the NDP doesn’t use taxpayer money to pay for partisan ads like the Liberals did. That alone could save us the $28M.

    And my question still stands. How do people feel about the legislation in total?

    (Response: Spoken like a true NDP apologist! No wonder so many of our young people today are turned off by politics …and those involved. Bet if Christy Clark had directed $30 million in taxpayers’ money from government directly into PARTY bank accounts, you and many others would not have been so magnanimous and forgiving!!! h.o)

  12. Gene The Bean says:

    13 – no worries, beat you to it.

    The $$ total of these three screw-ups is probably approaching 1/100th of what just the IPP scam will cost us. Factor in the other hundred or so LIEberal scams and this issue becomes, monetarily speaking, a big fat nothingburger.

    But what’s a few hundred billion dollars between friends……

  13. Jimbo says:

    To be fair – show the net of this program with previous totals of income tax deductions taken off.

    (Response: Net cost is not the point: telling the TRUTH is the point. How sad that we have come to a time when people will defend a party LEADER promising one thing and then doing the opposite almost immediately after being elected! And I must say I even find it particularly amusing in light of all the condemnations, criticisms and judgements so many people made when the Liberal Party paid Christy Clark $50,000 out of ITS OWN FUNDS to supplement her annual income … but now see little or nothing wrong with NDP legislation that would pay up to $30 MILLION of TAXPAYERS’ $$$$ to the NDP, Libs and Greens. TOTAL hypocrisy! h.o)

  14. DonGar says:

    1) Politician saying anything to get elected check

    2) Taking taxpayer money against their will for personal gain check

    3) Making sure any independent or new political party is put at disadvantage using taxpayer dollars check

    4) Doing nothing at municipal level and leaving current wild west in-place check

    Sounds like the perfect legislation

    (Response: Your absolutely right about an important result of the NDP plan: any new parties or fledgling small parties are pretty well barred from challenging the BIG three … or should I say the BIG two …and a newly bribed millionaire third (so much for the Greens being a party of principles!! More like ‘principal” ..LOL! h.o).

  15. @H.O. You’d prefer to stick with the past where 117 bankrolled the BC Liberals rather than spreading the load onto Voters?


    “177 top BC Liberal donors who gave $55 million to the party received $15 billion in contracts, subsidies and other special favours”

    (Response: Pls don’t put words in my mouth. NEVER stated I wanted to stick with the old system. I believe people should be able to VOLUNTARILY support political parties they believe in …up to an agreed upon $$$ limit ….even give them a tax donation for doing so… but don’t ORDER/FORCE people to support parties (that’s exactly what government assigning tax dollars does) … especially those they vehemently may oppose. And I also believe politicians should tell voters BEFORE the election what they will do AFTER the election…I know, a radical idea…but I believe it can catch on …if people stop apologizing for those who lie and deceive. h.o)

  16. BMCQ says:

    Full Disclosure here

    About Jan 2017 I wrote on this Blog that I was of the opinion that ALL B.C. Provincial Parties should only be allowed to accept Funding from Personal Donations and none greater than $100.00 each year from each individual with NO IN KIND Donations from Unions or Corps.

    I also said that I felt there should be a nominal amount injected to each Party based on their last Election results from the Provincial Tax Payer no greater than $ 1 Million for any Party.

    13 then took me to task on that and stated that he did not want Tax Payer Dollars going to any Party in any form.

    I then had second thoughts and have since gone back to the same formula without the injection from The Province. I now feel that the Parties should raise Campaign Funds on their own without A Provincial Component.

    It may make Funding Campaigns more difficult but it may also force Politicians to work harder.

    As to the Horgan NDP Proposal?

    Horgan looks ridiculous and he is not even doing a good job of his “Spin” on this.

    He almost looks embarrassed when trying to Spin the decision. In fact when I saw the Scrum Horgan almost looked like he was wearing a wet Diaper.

    As to those NDP “Apologists” attempting to excuse Horgan and his Confusing and Fumbling justification and talk of a “Transition” Funding?

    Come on, are you not better than that?

    The MOST important statement made on this whole Topic so far is what Harvey points out.

    It is not the Spin or the talk of Transition or even the “Modest” $ 30 Million (YIKES) that is the worst, it is the fact Horgan actually thinks that his NDP Supporters will believe that he did not Lie and Go Back on a very important part of Election Platform.

    Surely Gentleman John could not think that his Supporters are so Blind that they would not question the ethics of this decision does he?

    And here I thought it was only B.C. Liberals, Federal Conservatives, Business People, Captains of Industry, Republicans, and Capitalists that were Morally Bankrupt, Corrupt, Criminal, Liars, and the rest!

    I for one am “AGHAST”!

  17. DBW says:

    (Response: Spoken like a true NDP apologist! No wonder so many of our young people today are turned off by politics …and those involved. Bet if Christy Clark had directed $30 million in taxpayers’ money from government directly into PARTY bank accounts, you and many others would not have been so magnanimous and forgiving!!! h.o)

    Seriously Harvey. This is your response. Name calling and suppositions.

    1. Where am I an apologist? In my first post I said I wasn’t going to defend Horgan, that I was more interested in the actual legislation not what was said or not said earlier. Whale or wail (or both) away. Have at her. Go for the recall.

    Me? I will let the legislation speak for itself. And right now, what we have is way better than what was there before.

    2. Kids may be turned off politics by this situation but I would say that pigeon-holing also turns kids off politics.


    3. You bet wrong. If the Liberals had brought in this legislation under similar circumstances, I wouldn’t have lost any sleep. I was fine with Chretien bringing in taxpayer subsidies. I can see why people might be upset by subsidies (I hate that political donations get a bigger tax write off than my charitable donations) and I am willing to listen to those arguments.

    That’s where I am at Harvey. Call Horgan a lying hypocrite all you want. I really don’t care. But I do care about the legislation.

    Are you upset just at Horgan’s contradictions (which is certainly fair game) or do you actually have a philosophical problem with a temporary subsidy?

    (Response: Both. It really bothers me when ANY politician promises one thing and almost immediately after getting elected, does the opposite … not even a question of unavoidable changed local or world circumstances or conditions over time ….just quite apparently outright deception of voters; I believe people should be able to VOLUNTARILY support political parties they believe in …up to an agreed upon $$$ limit ….even give them a tax donation for doing so… but don’t ORDER/FORCE people to support parties (that’s exactly what government assigning tax dollars does) … especially those they vehemently may oppose. h.o)

  18. Gordie says:

    After the Liberals “won” the May 2017 election, they reversed almost everything on their platform. A bunch of lies got them elected. Aside from Rich Coleman, we didn’t hear that much outrage…..a lot of ridicule, though.

  19. Gordie says:

    Sorry, my bad…Rich Coleman was outraged about Plecas.

  20. BMCQ says:

    DBW – 15

    Harvey is a Big Boy and he does not need anyone to stick up for him but I must point out that if you called me “An Aplogist” for any Party or Group I really do not think it is name calling.

    I think terms like Aplogist, making excuses, Blinded by Ideology, Failing to see the Truth, and others are just part of the give and take.

    If you called me an “Apologist” it would get my attention and might cause me to think a bit because I know you well enough to respect your opinion and I would at least review my comments.

    I might not change my mind but……

    I ask you to simply look at the name calling from some here that actually call Conservatives or Business types as Corrupt, Morally Bankrupt, Criminals and many more EVERY time they Post.

    You see the name calling directed at me every day on this Blog.

    I would not really be upset about being called an Apologist”, that term is simply meant to get your attention.

    As to kids being put off?

    Young People in Canada are the most fortunate in the World.

    If Canadian Students are put off by what takes place in Canadian Politics they are beyond help.

    Surely Canadian Students/Young People can deal with a little argument, discussion, and debate.

    If not I suggest they look around and see what Children and Teenagers in the rest of the World are required to go through just to get a Meal or a Glass of Clean Drinking Water.

  21. Helena Handcart says:

    “Response: You may be happy to pay an extra $8 …or $80 … a year to political parties. But what right do YOU or the government have to FORCE me to and 4,000,000 other British Columbians to do so?????”

    Harvey! No need to get your knickers in a knot. You and I are already paying these guys. My taxes help pay for your pension. Your taxes help pay for Horgan’s salary. We pay up and hope that the people that we elect will make wise choices. Sometimes they do and sometimes not. I am not happy that the NDP have broken a promise, but I hope that over the next few months they will prove to be a better government than the last one. If they do not convince us that we are better off, they’ll get kicked to the kerb.

    (Response: What other lies lay ahead? It does NOT help our democracy, our province, our political value system when others make excuses, defend …or even just accept with a “ho hum” … when it is done. Glad to say you can’t put me in that group …either now, or when Campbell did it …or when Harper did it. No one should stay silent or just go along. h.o)

  22. Diverdarren says:

    Harvey, this blatant lie says a lot about where the GreeNDP’s head is at.

    With such an in your face reversal on a big issue, (funneling tax dollars into political party hands) you’d think Horgan won that election in a runaway landslide, instead of a minority government.

    I’d love to meet the strategist that thought this one up. If the GreeNDP pulls this off and holds onto power, that strategist is a political genius.

    Have your leader caught in a lie in the first weeks of a tenuous mandate, basically pay your party’s bills with tax money and tell the us “it is not what you are making it out to be” Wow!


    (Response: What amazes me is that so many just accept it: no big deal…another politician/party who says/promises one thing … and then does another. And worse … scurries away without answering questions after making the announcement!! (Until pushed on it the next day). Disgraceful! And indefensible! If a “temporary transition” (wasn’t the introduction of Income Tax a temporary move back in the 1920s?) was needed … Horgan/NDP should have said so and explained during the campaign … not deceive. h.o)

  23. Marge says:

    No wonder people don’t vote these days. No matter whom you choose, the winner always comes up with creative ways of “getting away with murder” and grabbing as much as they can. The Dipper/Greens prove this to a fault. More money for the Greens next election, more money for the NDP. And all at the taxpayer expense. Then they will be tossed out royally to be replaced by the latest edition of the Fibs (Liberals) who will then come up with new creative ways of hosing us. We can’t win!

    (Response: So sad! And we’re only a few months in! Who knows what lies (oops, there’s THAT word again!) ahead. h.o)

  24. Harry Lawson says:


    Let’s call bull crap. . many point out the unethical spendings of other government’s. News flash that does not mean this is right…… Mr Horgan promised a new era in BC politics and regretfully he was right it appears to be worst… They are behaving like he has a huge majority yet the reality is they are a flu a way from a election. . I am surprised it only took few months in office to match or surpass the
    The voters anger after 16 years of the liberals

    (Response: Anyone who follows this blog knows how often the Libs were called out for all kinds of principle failures, action failings and falsehoods. It gives me no joy to see those who promised change and a new type of governance/politics/ethics …. the NDP AND the Greens who are propping up the NDP for their own $$$ benefit…. now guilty of the same. The only thing worse? Those who were so critical of the Libs but are now so prepared to look the other way or even excuse the NDP/Green government for doing the same. Sad…and not good for our democracy. h.o)

  25. DBW says:

    You are right BMCQ, Harvey is a big boy and doesn’t need to be defended. So why did I end up wasting a minute of my life reading your defense.

    Important point. It is not the name he called me. I’ve suffered worse. It’s the fact that he deflected from addressing my question by the dismissive labelling. Even if I were an apologist, he doesn’t score any points in the argument – if in fact there is an argument. Check his response to #17 where he actually talks about the legislation. Don’t necessarily agree with him, but I have a better understanding of his viewpoint.

    Back on topic. The campaign promise was to get big money out of politics. Has that promise been broken?

    I have no clue why Horgan said what he did during the campaign about subsidies. And I have no clue why he chose to change his mind to include subsidies.

    Of course it makes him look foolish or sleazy or hypocritical or whatever name you want to attach to him. There is no defense for what he did. He may (and I emphasize may) have to pay a political price for this decision. But if this is the worst thing they do, we should all just take a deep breath and relax.

    Does this make me sound ho hum. Maybe. Politicians should be held accountable for what they do. And Harvey has every right to be outraged by this if he wants to be. It’s just that I have only so much energy to expend on being outraged. I can’t even find the time to be outraged about things I am outraged about. This just happens to be far down the list.

    While I have no problem with the interim subsidies, I can certainly understand why people aren’t happy. If enough of you want to force blowback on Horgan to change his mind, more power to you.

    (Response: It wasn’t really name calling .. because that would imply a constant: it was more an adverb … describing the your action in defending the NDP’s position in this particular case. Hopefully you won’t be apologizing for ALL their next several improper actions. h.o)

  26. Crankypants says:

    If the various parties require transition funding to stay in business may I suggest they take a page out of the school PACS. How about some bake sales or flogging chocolate coated almonds.

    They could also have reduced the limits a party may spend during the writ period. If all we are going to fed are platforms that are meaningless then the less exposure the better.

    (Response: That would take WORK! Why work when you can just grab money from others who did??? h.o)

  27. 13.. says:

    I am surprised. Surprised that some of the die hard NDPers on this blog have actually come out and chastised the Horgan lie. Why even GTB gave them a second strike. Was strike one the golf party?

    Still some think that pointing out lies told by other political parties and other politicians is enough to excuse the straight up in your face without even blinking lie. Transition??? What about the rebate on election spending. Will that cease in 4 years?
    Oh well theres always
    BC Rail or the other BCL blunders to sooth the soul. Mind you if Horgan and company keep up this pace they might even catch up to the Libs.
    I like the Liberal MLAs question to Horgan today
    “does the leader of the NDP need to consult with his wholly owned subsidiary at the end of the hall?

  28. G. Barry Stewart says:

    Here’s Gary Mason’s view on the new legislation. It sounds like a 7 or 8 out of 10, from him. There IS a lot of good in the legislation.


  29. BMCQ says:

    Barry – 28

    I believe that on any given subject there are many different opinions.


    I do not like the over $ 28 Million of Tax Payer Money going to Campaign Funds but I feel strongly that we need a better Policy for Parties to raise Funds for future Campaigns.

    Horgan and his Government do not look good on this and the Government should take a second look at the Policy.

    As a B.C. Liberal Supporter and Federal Conservative I really do not think there would be any damage done to the New NDP Government if they made the wise decision by revisiting this Policy and making a change to this very Wrong Minded Decision.

  30. Keith says:

    Had Les Leyne been as in depth with the liberals various shortcomings as he has with this article in Sept 21 Times Colonist I would have be a bigger fan. However, this is a very good summation.


  31. Ed Seedhouse says:

    So when did Horgan take a vow not to use public money for this? “Vow” has a specific meaning as Harv surely knows well. Horgan made no vows until he took the oath of office.

    “Vow” is an emotionally loaded term used in this context to make what Horgan did seem worse than it actually was. That’s hardly “keeping it real”, Harv.

    (Response: Geez…. read HIS quote again …. an absolute PROMISE was made to the taxpayers that NO PUBLIC FUNDING would be used. I guess every time a reporter interviews a politician now, we should carry around a diverse set of holy books and/or have him/her to select one or raise their arm and VOW to actually tell the truth! As if that would stop any of them from lying!!! And is there a rule…if a politician and his other party candidates ALL say the same thing, repeatedly in a campaign …. how many times is it required to be said before it should actually be believed? Sounds like the answer is NEVER! h.o)

  32. DBW says:

    “It wasn’t really name calling .. because that would imply a constant: it was more an adverb … describing your action in defending the NDP’s position in this particular case.

    I was agreeing – no not even that – I was saying that I had no problem with the subisides. At no time did I try to defend or apologize for Horgan’s flip flop.

    I can’t emphasize this point enough. If I say something (as dumb as you think it may be) and your response is simply “spoken like an apologist, no wonder kids are turned off politics and I bet you would have…” does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion. Please, if I do something similar, call me on it. (And yes BMCQ, you and others have been attacked unfairly, but I only have time to defend myself.)

    Back to the issue. Horgan/NDP do not look good by making this decision the way they did. I think that is agreed by all.

    But I am still curious. Is a temporary subsidy (and for the sake of argument assume that it is temporary ) all that bad? This is coming from someone who never donates anything to political parties except his time. And believes the tax break for political parties at 75% is outrageous compared to the 29% rate for all the charities I do donate to.

    Your argument that it should be voluntary is certainly valid but again, do we make that distinction for taxpayer funded grants to non-profits. Why even give a tax break or grants to any charity. Shouldn’t these things just be voluntary?

    Besides there are whacks of things my tax dollars go to that I am not pleased about as are yours. And we may not even agree on which items we are upset about.

    Lastly, we can fight over legislation clause by clause like they will in the committee stage and maybe BCMQ will get his wish that amendments are made, but overall -bottom line – isn’t this legislation far superior to what we had before?

  33. Helena Handcart says:

    KIR is a daily stop for me. Harvey’s blog and the comments are usually controversial and thought-provoking. What is unusual about this topic is that we are all more or less agreed.
    Getting rid of big money. Good.
    Breaking promises. Bad.
    I even found myself nodding in agreement with BMCQ.
    We all hope for good government from this current lot and so far it has been a “curate’s egg” Some good and some bad. Let’s wish for better.
    I have been impressed with the balance in the Legislature as of late. Good debate from all three sides.
    Some comments:
    Horgan: Strong, forceful speaker but need to find a little humility now and again.
    Dix: I can see why he never became premier. Weak and nervous 0n his feet. His anger seems artificial.
    Melanie Marke. Confident speaker with a good grasp of her mandate.
    Clare Trevena: She was a BBC announcer?? Really??
    Andrew Wilkinson: Smooth polished, unflappable.
    Sam Sullivan: To my surprise, a polished gracious speaker. I did not vote for him, but I am happy that he represents my riding.
    Rich Coleman.: He needs to get a set of false teeth that fits properly. Very distracting.
    Mike de Jong: Knows where and when to get the knife in. Needs to be a bit less smug.
    All in all, not a bad legislature IMHO.
    Finally, a big thank you to Harvey. He has kept his doors open when others have fallen by the wayside. Where would we be without KIR?

  34. BMCQ says:

    DBW – 32

    I agree with you about the Charitible Donations,

    I believe ALL Canadians would benefit greatly if the Charitible Tax Deduction was increased to a much higher % and those that receive Donation Money would see more In the way of Funds andDonors would benefit from the Deduction and they would know Their Donation was going to the Charity of their choice. This should be looked at.

    I still feel that the $ 28 Million is grossly out of line.

    Helena – 33

    I want the Horgan Government to work even though I have serious concerns.

    If Horgan and his Government take us where I think they will the Deficits will create serious problems.

    I am concerned about Government Waste, Bloat, and unwarranted increases in Wages/Salaries, Benefits, and Pensions.

    You made some interesting observations about various MLA’s.

    Do you think that Green Leader Weaver had any behind the scene involvement in the rolled out Campaign Funding Framework?

    Personally I do not think the “Great Unwashed” are getting the full story, we need to know more.

    I agree with 13, the Liberals should vote against the proposed Legislation and pledge to refuse the Funding.

  35. e.a.f. says:

    This may have benefited the Greens more than the other parties. Perhaps it is the “deal” the ndp had to make with the Greens for support on other issues, who knows, but if some one does, please share.

    Personally don’t have a problem with it. its $5M and change over 4/5 years. It gets rid of the corporations and puts a ceiling on what people can donate. Before we get all excited how much did the taxpayers loose each year when all those political donations were tax deductions? I don’t do math, but I’m sure its on a chart some where. So perhaps we aren’t out that $28m but something much less.

    As to breaking a promise, well he didn’t promise anything along the lines of what he did, so technically he didn’t break a promise. People might want to stop holding the NDP to a higher standard than the B.C. Lieberals. Now it maybe said the NDP holds it self up as being “better” than the B.C. Lieberals, but as with anything in politics, its a matter of degree.

    Personally I would like to see them eliminate all tax deductions for all charities, churches, and political parties. As an atheist I’m not happy about people receiving tax deductions for contributions to their religions. Some one has to make up the money. Then there are the charities. Well the Fraser Institute qualifies as one and again, for every deduction, we have to make up the difference.

    if there is a 5 year “transition” period, I fine with it. What I’d actually like to see, is no private money in politics. Every party gets the same amount of money and its have at it folks. It would also give us a better idea of how parties manage money. (of course there would be those who could create some interesting parties to gain the money, but that is so far off topic)

    (Response: Let’s keep it real! You say: “he didn’t promise anything along the lines of what he did, so technically he didn’t break a promise.” Talk about political twisting …as bad as I have ever seen from Christy Clark and ANY Liberal supporter!!! HERE is the transcript (thanks to Mike Smyth’s reporting) of Horgan on CHNL in May: ” “Just to be clear,” CHNL radio host Shane Woodford asked Horgan. “There is going to be nothing in there about taxpayers having to fund political parties?”
    “That’s correct,” Horgan responded.
    “What we propose is that Elections B.C. will look across the country and around the world at the best ways to make sure only individuals are paying for our political process. That’s what we’re going to do.”
    NOT!!! Read it and weep …. and squirm: “Nothing in there about taxpayers having to fund political parties” said Horgan. That IS a lie!!!! As for Elections BC will look around the world yada, yada, yada …that was NOT in the legislation. THIS is not holding the NDP to a HIGHER standard …not on THIS blog: it’s about LIES and LYING politicians. It’s so sad ..and the only thing sadder is watching those shaming themselves by trying to pretend he/NDP didn’t lie and don’t deserve to be condemned for doing so. h.o.) .

  36. e.a.f. says:

    My apologies for driving up your blood pressure. Forgot about Horgan making that promise. Ignore my former writings on that.

    But really never met a politicians who didn’t lie, just a wee bit.

    (Response; The ability to change one’s view as a result of discussion is GOOD for democracy: that’s what I enjoy about doing this blog … it hopefully makes ALL of us think, change their views or at least better understand others’ perspectives. 🙂 h.o)

  37. BMCQ says:

    e.a.f. – 36

    I am very impressed!

    And a very classy response from Harvey!

  38. e.a.f. says:

    Now as to the government/tax payers having to shell out $25M dollars over 5 years to adjust things while big money is removed from B.C. politics. It isn’t such a big amount considering this from Norm Farrell:

    177 top B.C. Liberals donors who gave $55M to the party received $15B in contracts, subsidies, and other special favours

    In my opinion $15B out versus $25M we’re getting a deal.

    Then there is the no small matter of all that money which went through the casino in Richmond, almost like a money laundering machine and the B.C. LIeberals didn’t announce that before the election. So if we’re talking money, hey that $25M is a deal considering we may now get a handle on going through casinos. (Bob Mackin is reporting on that)

  39. Jay Jones says:

    On a positive note, teenagers running the household is a lot better than toddlers running it.

  40. 13.. says:

    eaf the master of deflection. Good bad or indifferent we all apparently owe the BCL a big thank you . Were it not for their 16 years of service for all to reference how could “we” defend the NDPs lies and broken promises? Lets add the 4 lane blacktop movie that has been cancelled. Hmm? Kamloops voted BCL so to hell with our promise we can use that money to try and keep promises in NDP ridings.
    I wonder if anyone besides BMCQ is willing to admit that the other side is not evil and totally corrupt. Seems that sooner or later were going to be able to comment that maybe the BCL had a few successes.

  41. DBW says:

    Douglas Todd’s take.


    “It’s fair to criticize the B.C. NDP, and the supporting B.C. Greens, for not being clear earlier that they would seek direct public funding of political parties, to the extent of up about $5 million a year.

    But, in the rough-and-tumble world of politics, that’s a relatively minor infraction compared to the moral chaos and mistrust generated by B.C.’s ultra-lax approach to political financing.”

    (Response: Have we really come to this is our society? Where a politican…in fact several politicians LIE to the voters during an election campaign …and then go back on their word almost immediately after …and that’s a “small infraction”??? Not in MY world. No wonder so many of them lie to us!!! h.o)

    I and at least one other have commented on your headline writer in recent posts.

    NDP/Horgan Betray MAJOR Election Promise.

    Todd says we can criticize the NDP for including the public funding, especially by not being upfront about it, but he thinks that’s a “MINOR infraction”. Not getting rid of the “ultra lax approach to political funding” would have been a MAJOR betrayal.

    Do you agree?

    (Response: Really? Is that what we have come to in our society today …where a politician and several of his cohorts make a PROMISE during an election campaign on a MAJOR issue .and then do the opposite almost as soon as being elected…and this is described as “a MINOR infraction”??? Not in MY world!! No wonder so many of them lie to us so often ..and those who defend it or say it’s just a MINOR infraction do terrible harm to the INTEGRITY of our democracy. h.o)

  42. JasonS says:

    Harvey i can see you are truly outraged at this. The last 16 years and the 2013 election must have been hard on you with the BC Neo-Liberal party’s continuous string of lies and falsehoods. Not selling BC Rail , the HST, BC Families first , the most open and transparent government, an LNG facility in every pot, 100 billion prosperity fund, deleted emails ,Debt Free BC, Ethnic gate, Christy herself in the legislature and on TV lying about a police investigation of the health ministry firings. And so on and so forth. It must have been pure hell for you everyday. Just wait until the NDP/Greens get a good look at all the books what with the ICBC poison pill 1 week in to their mandate , ALL of the liberals lies and financial chicanery will be there for everyone to see and i promise it won’t be pretty. We should use the interest on the 100 billion prosperity fund to pay for this and put BC families first like an open and transparent government would . Ooops there’s those lies again. When the BC liberals take there share of the money which will be the biggest share by the way i will be looking forward to your bruising condemnation. Hey Harvey i voted for the Liberals twice , in 2001 and 2004 because i believed all of their lies but i informed myself . The worst part of democracy is tribalism. BC Liberal apologists allowing them to skate on their ABSOLUTELY disgusting record of lying to the public is one of the reasons people don’t vote.

    (Response; Yes. If you search Christy Clark and Liberals on the blog box on the front page, you’ll note my criticisms of her/them too. In fact, readers will recall I refused to even call Clark Premier UNTIL she actually won an election as leader. Not to mention BC Rail (we’re still on it, Mary!) HST lies etc. My own search of “Christy” came up with 931. Lots of time to review while I soon take my Fall travel break! h.o.)

  43. Hugh says:

    Money laundering in Vancouver real estate too. It’s a good thing we have a new BC government to hopefully address this bullsh#t:


  44. 13.. says:

    eaf. 15 B in alleged payback for donations? Is their irrefutable proof that contracts would not have gone where they did irregardless of donations. I agree that political parties will pander to their base. The real problem would be where the contracts were un needed or a complete waste. Dont think for one minute that under the new law re donations that all three parties wont find ways to reward their support base. For instance the NDP are now putting 55 million in Federal cash on hold in order to teach Kamloops voters ( and all of BC that drive for a living) a lesson .

  45. Gene The Bean says:

    eaf #38

    Thanks for sharing that. Too bad only 2/3 of the population have the ability (or is it the morality) to understand it.

  46. 13.. says:

    Harvey when are you going to learn that you cant be balanced unless you NEVER are critical of a left wing organization. Seems to me since Ive started visiting Keeping it Real in about 2008 there has been NO shortage of criticism of the BC Liberals. Same goes for free speech. Its only acceptable to speak freely when you support the left. PC madness.On a much more serious note your holiday schedule is one that even a public sector worker would be envious of .

    (Response: And don’t forget my criticisms of Harper/Tories and federal Greens tooo! 🙂 Well …. There goes my Order of BC now …just like my non-Order of Canada …. and my non-Lifetime Achievement Award from the Websters … all I have no doubt for repeatedly failing to genuflect, look the other way or sell out my honest views, ethics and standards. But don’t fret for me: I get better value out of my Entertainment Book …than any of the others would provide. LOL! h.o.)

  47. DBW says:

    Not to belabour the point Harvey but there are degrees of outrage.


    Gordon Campbell: We will not rip up contracts or HST is not on our radar.

    contracts ripped up and HST introduced

    Christy Clark: There will be trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of dollars from LNG.


    Justin Trudeau: This will the last election under first past the post


    John Horgan: We will reform election financing and there will be no taxpayer subsidies

    Election financing has be reformed but there are temporary taxpayer subsidies.

    Todd is not suggesting that Horgan is free of blame; he is just saying the “lie” about taxpayer subsidies is a minor infraction compared to the horrible unfettered rules we had before.

    The reason, I have lie in quotation marks is because there is a second part. When politician say what they say are they purposely lying and to what end?

    Was Trudeau wishful thinking about electoral reform and didn’t know how complicated it would be or was he deliberately trying to steal votes.

    Clark knew that LNG was a winning strategy, but was she just talking through her hat not realizing the difficulties it would take to get the industry started or did she know in advance it was a sham.

    When Horgan was interviewed by the Kamloops reporter was he speaking to purposely deceive or was he making stuff up on the fly.

    Nobody wants to be lied to and politicians should pay a price for their deception, but there are degrees. And we might not agree on which “lies” are unforgiveable and which are just minor infractions.

  48. BMCQ says:

    For too many of us the varying “Degrees” of the Lies has a lot to do with which Party we might or might not support.

    That is most evident by reading many of the 49 Posts on this Subject.


    If we in B.C. or Canada ever went to PSR it would be a Disaster!

    PSR would almost always guarantee unmanageable Minority Governments and meaningful Legislation would simply be a past memory.

    On top of that the Cost and Bloat of Government would become so problematic that we would be swimming in Huge Deficit each and every year and then accomplish nothing in the way of progress.

    Hey, Wait a minute, PM Justin and Premier Horgan are already going to take care of that.

    How silly of me!

    At least PM Justin’s Handlers talked him out of PSR, even if he eh, uh, Promised It!!

    Look around at other Jurisdictions that actually have implemented PSR and you can easily see that Nothing Gets Done any time Soon”!!


    AS I stated up the page I really have no problem with a Government changing their Mind but a Lie is something totally different, even if in the eyes of some it is a Smaller Lie than the Morally Bankrupt, Climate Change Producing, , Crooked B.C. Liberals.

  49. Hugh says:

    BC is a sewer of corruption and money laundering, thanks to the BC Liberals. Think positive – we now have a new Govt.


    (Response: hard for non-partisan types to think positive, when within a couple of months of taking power, the Premier/party are shown to have not openly failed to live up to many KEY promises in their first budget, but have also been shown to have lied to the voters during the campaign…. at a cost of $28 million or more to the taxpayers h.o.)

  50. Eldon says:

    A lot of parallels to HST. Good policy, bad lies.

    I’m very surprised how personally people take it when you criticize a party. Good journalism criticizes the party in charge disproportionately. That’s the job and duty of holding any government accountable.

    (Response: What amazes/disappoints me are those people will make Pavlovian excuses for politicians/party they favour, knowing full well they would condemn/rant if the SAME actions were taken by a politician/party they don’t like. And yet, they consider themselves intellectually honest! NOT! h.o.)

  51. e.a.f. says:

    BMCQ, you do have a very good point about “varying degrees”. Actually make me laugh. if we are going to be Keeping It Real, yes you’re quite correct. We are always so much more forgiving of our “own”. It no different than when a kid is found doing something wrong. If its your kid, its a kid being a kid. If its some one else’s kid, well that juvenile delinquent. Its part of the “defend your own” syndrome.

    Now 13, thank you thank you, ” master of deflection”. Most have always considered me a generalist. Might have to break out a new T shirt made to order, master of deflection, 13 says so.

    Its true I’m fairly good at deflection, as are a number of others who comment here. It depends upon whose ox is being gored, but to be considered a master, my status has been elevated and I thank you.

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