It has been a momentous few days in B.C. : the paramedics have taken a stand … and the public, and even some of the media … are finally starting to understand the justice of their cause.
That reality is all the more amazing in view of the fact that the “stand” many paramedics took actually took dozens of ambulances out of service for several hours.
Ordered by the BC government to work under an imposed legislated agreement, the paramedics did just that. They worked according to their contract and BC law … exercising their right to refuse overtime … and thereby demonstrating their disapproval of their treatment by the government, and at the same time, exposing how poorly organized the BC ambulance service is these days.
And they have also sent a loud and clear message to Premier Gordon Campbell and his Liberal government: dictatorial attitudes and actions can bring more resistance and problems than they solve.
And the public, judging by responses on this blog and on radio talk shows, is behind the paramedics.
For weeks, I have argued that to take away workers rights, as an essential service is one thing, but then there must also be a fair way for them to resolve labour disputes and achieve just contracts: through negotiation, mediation and, if necessary, binding arbitration through an independent adjudicator.
That’s the way we resolve disputes involving police and fire service workers, but the Liberals apparently decided just trampling the paramedics’s rights and imposing a contract was the way to go.
Not!!!
Now we’re seeing the push-back and I suspect it has just started.
But the public and the media are finally catching on to how badly treated the paramedics have been .. and their message is now getting through.
For example, in my last blog I ranted against what I saw as the terribly dismissive treatment of the paramedics’ cause and concerns Friday on CKNW by media pundits Bill Good, Vaughn Palmer and Keith Baldrey.
Then came the push-back and the public reaction.
Monday, NW redeemed itself; morning host John McComb did a first class interview with Barry O’Neill CUPE Union spokeman; the Good show featured a very credible discussion of the dispute, its impact and the issues involved, first with B.J. Chute of the Paramedics Union and then again in the regular weekly segment between Good, and pundits Bill Tieleman and Norman Spector; and then Christy Clark followed up by canvassing the issue with a spokesman for the BC Ambulance Service. Complete, fair coverage, in my view.
And rather than a “they lost, get back to work” attitude, there is now a lot of credibility being given to the idea of independent arbitration as a better solution than just legislating the paramedics back to work under an imposed contract.
Hallelujah!
Dictatorships are passe in Canada: taking away labour rights and then just imposing a contract simply cannot work anymore.
The public gets it; the media gets it; but does Gordon Campbell and his government get it?
Or will it take more “push-back” by working British Columbians to drive that message home?
Harv Oberfeld
40 responses so far ↓
1 Turtle // Nov 17, 2009 at 1:55 am
Campbell doesn’t get it. Time for a general STRIKE.
2 Gary E // Nov 17, 2009 at 2:25 am
Oh, it’s going to take a lot more pushing back Harv. Campbell and his gang have trampled on us for almost 10 years. They still think they can run this province as they see fit. I personally think that their arrogance has grown to a point where they actually think they are in the right. Wrong!
There have been rumblings of a general strike. No one really wants a strike but if Campbell doesn’t wise up he may find he has caused the biggest general strike in this countries history.
And by wising up I don’t mean spread a few inconsequential goodies around. I mean get our railway back. Fix our broken health care system. Return the ferries to a public asset. And get Hydro back to a public utility. When the people of BC see what hydro will cost them all hell will break loose, if it hasn’t done so by then.
3 sunshine coast girl // Nov 17, 2009 at 2:43 am
Gordon Campbell and his henchmen (and women) get nothing! They don’t know how to function any other way. Time to get rid of them.
4 Stuart S. // Nov 17, 2009 at 2:45 am
I’m afraid Gordon Cambell does get it. There is a bigger picture at play here Harvey. What we are witnessing is a global attack on human rights and a takeover of our resources that the American corporations are directing with the full compliance of our governments. Believe me things are going to get a lot worse. Greed trumps fair play every time.
5 jk // Nov 17, 2009 at 2:50 am
Harv,
I would just like to thank you for taking up the cause of Paramedics through out this dispute. Your blog has been one of the few areas that we have received consistent support through out our negotiations.
As a paramedic, I believe we have lost our fight with this Government though. We have never seen legislation like this repealed before and I don’t believe we will now. The Government has also stated that the next round of bargaining includes a zero and zero mandate.
After 15 years of doing this job I think it’s time to get out and find an employer that will treat me with at least a little bit of respect. I now hate going to work everyday and feel more betrayed than ever by this government.
I was glad to see so many ambulances out of service this past weekend and I sincerely hope that it is just a taste of how things are going to be during the Olympics. I would love nothing more than to hear warnings on the radio during the 2010 Games warning of a shortage of ambulances.
Campbell, Falcon, Doney, and John Furlong, you guys created this mess now I hope you are embarrassed by it when the world comes to visit in February 2010! Get ready for more ambulance shortages, we’re not helping you anytime soon!
6 Patrick Bell (Not the MLA) // Nov 17, 2009 at 3:01 am
Harv….would there not be any legal ramifications at the Supreme Court level for unwillingness to negotiate fairly?…I know it isn’t quite the same as tearing up contracts, but it must violate some statute at the federal level…no?
(Response: Can’t see that working. Failing to negotiate fairly is such a subjective thing …more a matter of opinion than a legal breach which could be proven. Even if they offered ZERO they could just say they have no money and simply cannot afford anything more. That cant be illegal. h.o.)
7 the dude // Nov 17, 2009 at 3:07 am
nice to see that h.o. has moved back to a topic he is more qualified to speak of and certainly more interesting to read…
Hooray, hooray for the paramedics!
yes. I love all you smart litle rebels !
but… will we finally achieve a goal for all? all of us in BC? will we?
GENERAL GENERAL STRIKE (not the general strike idea, different). Thats when all, but all workers in BC making less than $12 an hour go on strike to make a point.
1 week of solidarity is all that is needed. 1 week where we tighten our belts a bit a go without that measly little salary (not much to miss $300 clear with luck). 1 week we eat at the food line every day maybe if needed (lest we do, we may for years).
Think of the impact from the other sides point of view: no one to serve 150 lattes an hour at $2.00 a piece -> $10 dollar an hour saving and a $300 loss.
this is for everyone who lives in poverty levels -> $12/hour
We need to take stand and change things here now!
think beijing some 20 years ago… thats how changes are accomplished byt taking a stand.
My experience in europe, in Spain is that the union leaders call on those general strikes and organize them…
here unions seem to have lost their usefullnes, they seem more profit hungry as they go buzzing and hargroving.
anyways.
yea to the paramedics!
but lets take this 1 step further please. lets STOP making this a single issue from the hospital people yesterday, the paramedics today and next month some other well unionized body.
8 Deck // Nov 17, 2009 at 3:47 am
I believe things will only be escalating over the next short bit. The paramedics cause is just, Canadian don’t want their rights taken away, Gordo’s legisilation is being rammed down people’s throats (-police can take signs down from your house, HST, BC Rail, Politicians pay raise, contracts ripped up) and upcoming contract negotiations in april.
I believe the perfect storm has now formed.
Add to that with the paramedics Gordo’s right hand puppet -Falcon states that with a “stroke of a pen” part timers could work overtime -obviously he didnt learn from his last “stroke of the pen”. Falcon waiting for Gordo to release the leash for several months before legislation is rumoured to have cost the governement $10 million in legal fees for paramedic issues during the strike. I want to see what the Charter challenge is going to cost taxpayers -last one was $85 million and Courts don’t like to see a party hasn’t learnt their lesson from the last time they stood before the Bench. Betcha this will be a lot more!
Gordo and Falcon remind me of Paris Hilton and her little purse puppy. Not sure why though?
Thanks Harv, I feel better now!
9 Keith // Nov 17, 2009 at 5:20 am
Or will it take more “push-back” by working British Columbians to drive that message home?
Yes it will. Considerably more. !! It must be driven into any government that behaves in the fashion of this one, that reducing our province and country to the lowest common denominator is not acceptable. However, where that will come fom I’m not sure, apart from the paramedics, health workers through legal action and teachers ( who I don’t always agree with) the unions have been virtually non existent since 2001. Maybe we need to take a look at the more proactive Europeans to see how it’s done and get beyond narrow self interest and apathy.
10 the dude // Nov 17, 2009 at 6:02 am
Harvey never better said (partly):There is a bigger picture at play here Harvey. What we are witnessing is a global attack on human rights and a takeover of our resources that the American corporations are directing with the full compliance of our governments. Believe me things are going to get a lot worse.
11 BM // Nov 17, 2009 at 6:27 am
Yes Harvey I have to agree, in our ambulance we listen to CKNW everyday.
Today the reporting was balanced, last Friday after Bill Good, Vaughn Palmer and Keith Baldrey had their discussion turned the radio to Jack FM.
Since we are on the topic of media I heard a Global anchor (I believe Robin) call Mr Doney by his first name of Lee on air last week.
How close is the relationship I wonder?
(Response: I have no idea whether that happened. Why not send Robin a note …. and let me know what she says.
h.o.
12 Brian // Nov 17, 2009 at 7:10 am
harv, i dont know how much push back there is, but the support for the paramedics is there. how much support, however, is questionable.
On this forum, there has been an interesting discussion going on about the strike and later the legislated settlement.
http://forums.castanet.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18508&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
There are 58 or so pages, if you wanna skip ahead then start at 48, after the legislated settlement.
(Response: I suspect the push-bach has just begun. h.o)
13 Crankypants // Nov 17, 2009 at 7:31 am
I have no doubt that some paramedics took the opportunity to send the government a message by either calling in sick or refusing scheduled overtime, but I wouldn’t put it past Falcon and the BCAS to embellish the impact. I heard one paramedic phone into CKNW and state that he was never called to come in on overtime which leads me to believe that the BCAS didn’t try very hard to get as many ambulances on the road as they could. Maybe they were too busy creating press releases.
Falcon’s “stroke of a pen” comment reminded me of a 2 year-old throwing a tantrum. Much the same as he did in the summer of 2008 when he got stuck in traffic because the VPD had closed the Ironworkers Bridge for several hours while they dealt with a jumper.
I think Jon McComb said it best “Kevin Falcon was transport minister when BC Ferries was privatized and Translink was remade and now he is the minister of health. YIKES!!”
14 RS // Nov 17, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Campbell is a stubborn and vindictive despot. I envision him seething in his ivory tower as he plans for the privatization of the BC Ambulance Service.
15 Dan. R // Nov 17, 2009 at 3:35 pm
The olympics are coming up so a general Strike for most of Feb would get Gordo’s attention , then again maybe not…
16 Curt // Nov 17, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Info:
Lee Doney, a retired civil servant whose last working salary was $204.627 now runs RLD Strategies, a “consulting firm” given a contract to give input into the running of the BC Ambulance Service. Campbell is paying this “firm” over $600,000 PER YEAR for its “input”. Mr. Doney has absolutely NO knowledge of emergency service, medicine, or ambulances whatsoever, but he is making a killing being a consultant about it at the same time he is drawing a very lucrative pension. His solution to all the woes of under-staffing, under-resourcing, recruiting new paramedics is to offer the paramedics a paltry 2% wage increase when the cost of living has gone up well past that. However Gordie is quite happy as it is another crony who is getting very rich for supporting the Liberals.
Lee Doney
HEABC – Health Employers Association of British Columbia
Interim President & Chief Executive Officer (appointed early 2009)
Lee Doney attended the University of Victoria where he received his BA in economics. He then continued his education at Queen’s University in Ontario where he completed his master’s degree in economics. Over the last 25 years, Lee has had extensive contacts with representatives from all sectors of the province. In his various roles, his responsibilities have covered such diverse areas as labour relations, forest policy, environment, skills and training, labour market research, treaty negotiations with a broad impact on the economy and environment. Lee is also a director on the Board of Community Living BC, and an independent consultant working in government relations, policy and strategic advice. He sits on the Western Forest Products Board of Directors and chairs the board’s Environment and Safety Committee. He is also chair to the Columbia Power Corporation.
(Response: I disagree completely with your personal opinion that Doney has no knowledge at all about running an emergency/ambulance service. As for your figures and RLD information,I have no personal knowledge about this, but if mr Doney disagrees with any of that, I would be most happy to publish his response/explanation. h.o.)
17 davidp // Nov 17, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Gordo does not want the Liberals to be in power after the next provincial election. He has created one heck of a mess, and he will drop that mess right into the lap of the opposition. The next party will spend four years desperately trying to clean up his mess, and will not entirely succeed. This will pretty much guarantee a Liberal victory in the subsequent election, and they can complete their task of selling out BC to the highest corporate bidders.
18 A. G. Tsakumis // Nov 17, 2009 at 5:17 pm
One problem remains: In all the better coverage (only McComb was superb on this issue) who among them actually had the guts or honesty to standing up and in a clear voice tell the listeners that the BC Ambulance service has been screwed over by a govt completely bereft of morality and humanity?
Not one.
Oh well. I suppose Rome wasn’t built in a day either…
But it shows you how vulnerable CKNW is: If they felt that Bill’s position on Friday was the right one and that Christy wouldn’t be impacted by mindlessly supporting David Hahn’s exorbitant salary and then accepting paramedics fate as a fait accompli, then why la change??
You know why…because if they start losing listeners when they have no competition, imagine what might happen if someone invests in another notch in the dial…and one day, soon enough, they will.
19 !i // Nov 17, 2009 at 5:41 pm
This strike has baffled me from the beginning.
Going out just 6 weeks before the general election? Not taking the offered 1 year deal (with the $4000 ‘bribe’) and then returning to the table in 2010 with all the public unions behind them? Thinking they could get the treasonous nurse’s wage lift without a quid pro quo?
Why were the essential service orders never challenged in court? For the paramedics to have to provide service to professional soccer, hockey and football games? fireworks? airshows? etc? What the heck was their leadership thinking to let these decisions stand without a court fight?
In the end the BC Liberal’s BCLRB lap dog ruled himself in “apprehension of bias” and the BC Liberals – realizing they had lost their unchallenged quasi judicial hammer – brutally introduced back-to-work legislation a few days later.
20 Kam Lee // Nov 17, 2009 at 7:16 pm
On saturday I was over in Victoria on Business. I asked one of the leg guards where gordo enters to go to his office. Once I found out, I took my dog, (who was with me on this trip) over there and left a message right in front of the door. Hope he likes it. It is only fair… he craps on us….
21 Grant G // Nov 17, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Gee Harvey…..You would make a “good” judge,……..”Forgive me,I have sinned”
You are forgiven my son……A thousand cheap shots from Bill Good and christy Clark and Bill Good feels the heat and does one “fair program” and Harvey Oberfeld….”The Judge” has put them back on the podium…..
Like I said in the past Harvey…”you are a cheap date” Steak or Spaghetti ?
(Response. Don’t be such a bitter person. When NW does something wrong enough to raise my ire, I say so; when they do something right in my view, I say so. I guess you think when people do/say something wrong … we should all condemn them for a lonnnnng time, even if they change?? But I’d bet you don’t apply that policy to yourself when you screw up! I’ll take steak please. h.o)
22 Norman Farrell // Nov 17, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Curt brings up interesting information about Lee Doney. The public record shows that he has been wearing many hats, including those of a Director for private companies while he also works in the public sector. For example, he is Chair of the Columbia Power Corporation.
He retired after 18 years at the Deputy Minister level in Victoria so at least he’s not forced to rely on a meager pension.
I’m researching a more complete report and expect to comment on the concept of highly paid part-timers managing the effort to keep public sector workers without pay raises over many years. Sends a strange message when that part-time executive earns 10 times the greedy workers he supervises AND collects a fat pension from taxpayers.
(Response: The problem with internet reseatrch, of course, it is a snapshot at a given moment (if accurate at all) and it does say when the info changed or was superceded by new info. h.o)
23 Toby // Nov 17, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Harvey, for some reason, right wing governments do not like being responsible for ambulance service. I think that Campbell is pushing the BC Ambulance service into a corner whence he can justify privatizing it. He will then contract it out to one of the large American ambulance operators and then user fees will skyrocket.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong on this one.
(Response: I hope you are wrong too. But I’m not so sure! h.o.)
24 Genuine // Nov 17, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Harvey ,yet again you show superb skill in choice,I would have chosen the steak too!! Medium well please.
25 K J // Nov 17, 2009 at 11:57 pm
This nurse is behind you 100%. Imposed contracting is complete insanity. There hasn’t been anyone listening to the Ambulance Service and somehow this imposed contract isn’t the answer to any of the problems. There needs to be some message sent to PM Campbell to fix the mess that is BCAS.
26 Gary L. // Nov 18, 2009 at 1:40 am
“After 15 years of doing this job I think it’s time to get out and find an employer that will treat me with at least a little bit of respect. I now hate going to work everyday and feel more betrayed than ever by this government”. This quote could have come from a B.C. Ferry Master or Officer. It is the EXACT sentiments that have the Licenced looking for an Exit Door.
By the way, if a P.A.B. Employee is reading this, pass it on to your “bosses”.
27 Wilson // Nov 18, 2009 at 6:08 am
Well I can’t mow the lawn with you on this one Oberfeld. Where I come from a raise is raise and I don’t think it is right to kick a gift horse in the teeth. We are in tough times and I don’t think you are doing wrong to a worker making them take more money. Even if it is not as much as they migh have asked for. they are not going to go away empty handed and some of my mates from Tolko sure as hell cant say the same. Keep it real Oberfeld, keep it real !
28 IT // Nov 18, 2009 at 7:26 am
I wonder what would happen if all union’s in the province decided to ask their members to a general strike….say…February 2010…or at least start talking about it and see how much support they would have from their brothers and sisters? (As suggested in a previous comment)
We can’t allow this stomping on proper and legal rights. As stated many have contracts coming up in the 2010 year and will have their rights trampled along with the ambulance workers.
Don’t forget all the under the table decisions made by this government without consultation with the people it affects (TILMA).
As one person stated, this may just be the beginning. For the government?….I say for the people to gather, unity, rally, strike and get the government arrogance right where it hurts, their pride and their pockets. The Olympics would be a great arena to show their true colours and those of British Columbians in that we support each other against the government decisions of the day.
29 Norman Farrell // Nov 18, 2009 at 9:04 am
I understand this to be the schedule of actual and projected pay changes for BC paramedics:
2005 – 0%
2006 – 0%
2007 – 0%
2008 – 2%
2009 – 3%
2010 – 0%
2011 – 0%
How would that compare to raises provided Gordon Campbell, Allan Seckel or Lara Dauphinee? (Don’t even count the $800,000 pension contribution for Campbell in 2007)
30 Crankypants // Nov 18, 2009 at 9:49 am
Wilson and those others that feel that the paramedics should just suck it up and accept their fate are missing the bigger issue. Yes they entered negotiations asking for the moon, but that is not unusual in labour disputes. If you ask for nothing then in most cases you will end up giving up something.
The problem is that the government chose to by-pass negotiation by imposing a contract. Thus they avoided working conditions which in most cases are more important than renumiration. Arbitration, binding or otherwise was never an option by the employer because that would diminish their power.
By all accounts it seems as if past negotiations and contracts favoured a few at the expense of many others. I belonged in two different unions in my working years and on most occaisions when it came time to negotiate a new contract the union tended to favour the old guard and negotiated in that vain. At times they may have been justified because of the situation then, but times change and so do priorities. What was once relevant may now be inconsequential.
The real question becomes whether the paramedics are in it for themselves or the betterment of the ambulance system in general. I assume it the latter and on that basis support them without reservation.
As first responders they should not be required to be on call at $2.00 per hour when other first responders, police and firemen, are doing the same thing at their regular rate of pay, whatever that may be. Also the BCAS should not depend on scheduled overtime to staff their shifts. As an essential service the BCAS must employ enough full time paramedics to cover all shifts and only use part-timers as support staff. Anything less is an afront to the general public.
31 crh // Nov 18, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Ahhh, yes Wilson, we all have equal rights to live under a bridge.
The 2 percent solution is no solution. What about the rest of the problems?
32 Henri Paul // Nov 18, 2009 at 6:59 pm
crh // Nov 18, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Ahhh, yes Wilson, we all have equal rights to live under a bridge.
———————————————————-
All part of the BC liberal social housing policy.
33 Curt // Nov 18, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Premier Campbell saw his annual compensation rise by 48.1% between 2006/07 and 2007/08. That was a one-year hike of $60,951.
In 2001, MLAs’ pay package and legislative operations cost $36.3 million, or $484,000 per MLA. In 2008, that grew 60% to an estimated $58.1 million, or more than $735,000 for each MLA.
34 Curt // Nov 18, 2009 at 10:31 pm
I have to add, I do not believe the ambulance workers would expect this kind of renumeration. I would think they would expect to be treated fairly though without legislation. a question that still sits in my mind though is, why would they legislate a contract for only 5 months? After all, they did extend the nurses’ contract for 3 years, I believe it was, with increases more than what they legislated these workers.
35 Norman Farrell // Nov 19, 2009 at 4:41 am
Curt asks, “. . . why would they legislate a contract for only 5 months?”
Kevin Falcon (“Qu’ils mangent de la brioche!”) finds magic in privatization. It is part of the BC Liberal policy to privatize all activities with profit potential. Falcon will have an unencumbered asset to move to the private sector next year and emergency services are attractive to business operators. In the words of America’s largest ambulance service provider:
“Our emergency services are, for the most part, not discretionary, and we anticipate demand will continue, whether the economy is weak or robust. ”
(Response: That’s what scares me. Could all these machinations with the paramedics be deliberately softening up the public to privatize it. h.o.)
36 Ruraidh // Nov 19, 2009 at 6:19 pm
The general thrust of the provincial liberals has been to turn public services and public resources into private property and private rights.
So far, they may have suceeded beyond their wildest dreams, that is, until the paramedics got in the way.
-30-
37 Steve // Nov 19, 2009 at 6:47 pm
The situation with the ambulance service did not occur overnight. The employer (government) has not put forth a sincere or concerted effort to address these concerns. The employer has been aware for a very long time of the critical nature. There has already been inquiries and panels, some independant and others Union sponsored. There has been talk/language in previous contracts that just does not come to futrition. We get the same old song – no money.
Now comes the Olympics, and the government uses the H1N1 as an excuse to drive the stake a little farther into the heart of this service.
Harv, it seems like the “Perfect Storm” is brewing. I too wonder if this is a calculated maneuver to really fracture this service. It would not suprise me that on March 31/10 (current imposed contact end) that the govenment agrees with the Union that the service is broken. Then off-load to the Health Authorities, and let them worry about it.
38 Richard // Nov 21, 2009 at 3:37 am
The push back has to happen at the ballot box during the next provincial election. Full stop.
39 crcs // Nov 21, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Richard -
In one year, we can begin the recall process.
40 crcs // Nov 21, 2009 at 3:44 pm
A rsponse to !i (post #19):
We had no choice in the matter of whether the contract expired just before the election or not. We asked for the contract to be reopened a year early and were denied (and given a 2% raise). This government never changed their basic offer and never intended on ‘bargaining’ in good faith. We wanted a multi-year deal and we all knew that the signing bonus was a red herring. I’d rather have a raise that is pensionable, applied equally acros-the-board and compounded over successive years. The govenment and media are currently making a big deal over our asking for the signing bonus to be reinstated but when the offer hasn’t changed in seven months, why *not* offer it? … given we weren’t allowed to negotiate anyway. As it stands, we have the government’s original offer and contract length so we’ll be going on strike with all the other public sector unions again in April 2010.
As far as chalenging the LRB’s ESO … we were waiting for Vice-Chair Adams to release his “reasons” behind the one-sided order before we could appeal … to the LRB. Once the LRB denied that appeal, we would then be able to take the challenge to a real court. As an aside, whenever we did go to court over supposed violations, the Justice had to rule on whether we violated the Order … not on whether the ESO was lawful. Further, the Justices unvaryingly told us (off-the-record) that we *needed* to challenge that POS legislation in court. Hopefully, this can happen sooner … as in before April 2010 … so we don’t get saddled with similar legislation again. So much was included in the ESO, it was ridiculous … and the LRB ruled in favour of BCAS in all but one matter … that being whether or not we had to scan our Patient Care Records into the computer.
I wasn’t aware that Vice-Chair Adams had ruled himself in apprehension of bias … we had tried that route earlier in the strike and it didn’t work. Our one visit to court since Bill 21 was with a different Vice Chair and BCAS had to abandon their claim that we were engaging in an illegal stike … notably because it became apparent that the “crisis” was largely engineered by BCAS since they failed to call paramedics to cover vacant shifts.
So much could have ben handled better by the union … but when they are under an over-restrictive ESO and are under a gag order from communicating with the membership … it quickly becomes a very dificult situation.
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