I’m sure if Ryan Dickinson had been convicted in the US of rioting and helping destroy two cars and smashing property … all while violating bail conditions on another serious charge …. he would have been sentenced to five, ten, maybe even 15 years in prison.
And most of his fellow citizens there would feel he deserved it.
But this is Canada and although many of us, including this blogger, have OFTEN complained …. I believe completely justifiably … about the injustices, stalling tactics, slaps on the wrist and many other failings of our justice (injustice?) system, Judge Malcolm MacLean handed down, in this case, a fair sentence.
Dickinson … the first 2011 Stanley Cup rioter to be sentenced … was given 16 months for throwing a newspaper box onto a police car windshield and smashing a store window. Plus another month for breaching his bail conditions on his other charge. That’s 17 months in all … less 3.5 months credit for time served in pretrial custody.
And, of course, he’ll be eligible for time off for “good behaviour” on the inside.
I know many would like to see Dickinson spend even more time behind bars … but let me try to calm you down by keeping it real.
Despite all the cliches of easy life “on the inside”, believe me, provincial jails (or even worse, federal penitentiaries) are not places any of us would really want to spend time.
No, I don’t know this from personal experience! But during my working years, I did on several occasions visit jails and prisons … from minimum security to medium and even max. These are NOT places any of us would like to be incarcerated … even for a day; the loss of freedom to come and go; the regimentation; the noise; the smells; the small confining cell; and, the ”neighours” can all be “a challenge” to deal with … to put it mildly.
Being in jail or prison IS a punishing experience.
Dickinson deserves it. And I believe a year or more, under those conditions, will be enough for his idiocy.
Not yet convinced?
Well, remember the punishment doesn’t stop there.
When he gets out, what do you think Dickinson’s chances will be of finding a good job? Especially if an employer remembers seeing the rage of his actions, all captured on video? And as if that’s not enough, considers his ethical failing in taking advantage of the break he was given on the earlier ASSAULT charge and breaking his curfew to head downtown … and then take part in the riot?
Dickinson’s punishment will go on well beyond his time in jail.
In fact, even if he does find a job, builds a new life and has a family … his “sentence” won’t yet be over.
Getting a passport will pose a big problem; and even if he gets one, where can he go? Not the US … likely for many, many years. And even decades later, only after a very complicated and costly waiver process … if at all.
So what, you say? Who needs to shop in Bellingham anyway?
But it’s much more than that: let’s say he goes straight, has kids etc. … and they want to go to Disneyland. Ooops! Or he and his wife want to get away to Vegas. Hmmm! Or just take the family to Yellowstone. Nope! Or enjoy a little beach weather some Christmas. No way!
These may sound simple …but think about it: the post-conviction restrictions people can face for the rest of their lives can be more debilitating than the time in jail.
Remember Dickinson was only 20 years old at the time of his crime.
So an 18 month sentence: that’s good enough.
Especially since it will be just the start of Dickinson’s real punishment.
Harv Oberfeld
19 responses so far ↓
1 sjm // Feb 17, 2012 at 3:45 am
I also agree with the sentence, but don’t believe that spending time in an institution will teach him anything. All it will serve to do is to keep this individual off the streets for a few months.
Watching his apparent indifference while he was destroying property during the riot was unsettling. I don’t believe for a second that he will emerge a changed and better man. For all the reasons you state the odds of turning his life around are small.
I hope he gets the help he needs in there – otherwise the only door in his future will be a revolving one.
2 13 // Feb 17, 2012 at 4:49 am
Harvey I disagree. If 16 months is just then how do you explain these other recent jail terms. The guy that stabbed the the Sun runner in the eye got 24 months. The bus driver that got sucker punched wants his attacker to get 12 months. The list of people who have either killed someone or badly injured another person and been handed jail terms of less than 5 years is endless.
Manditory minimun terms
Any crime where someone dies 10 years and up
Any property crime over a certain amount one year. Any crime while on parole double the minimun.
If this rioter has a fair just sentence then we value police cars and windows far more than eyes, and brains.
(Response: I believe stabbing someone in the eye warrants more than damaging a vehicle or smashing a store window. The bus driver incident was also a flash incident of anger (and stupidity) not a sustained rampage so it deserves less than Dickinson got. I know sentencing is difficult and i too could find a dozen sentences that infuriated me too as being too light. But in this case, on this one, the judge did okay. I just hope Dickinson doesn’t appeal …and get it down to time already served! h.o)
3 e.a.f. // Feb 17, 2012 at 7:58 am
I am of the opinion sending the rioters to jail will do nothing but ruin a lot of lives. As you pointed out it will be difficult to obtain employment or travel.
Rioting is not a repeat offence. How many of the 96 rioters were at this riot?
The jails are over crowded, why put more people in them?
The courts are over crowded and “real” criminals are having their cases dismissed. Who is more of a danger to our society, the rioter or the child predator?
The rioters who plead guilt should be given a fine, community service and probation. Simply have them all ready to go into court with one judge and go for it. The exceptions would be those who phyisically assaulted others.
Jail sentences may make others feel better but it will not deter any one from rioting. The next time there is a major event they just need to watch sky train for the drunks.
The VPD & VFD did a good job during the riot but using all this police time & tech. to catch a bunch of rioters is a waste of time and resources.
I just keep thinking they spent so much more time on investigating the riots than they ever did on the 49 missing women on the DTES. But then again property has always been more important than people.
4 D.G.B. // Feb 17, 2012 at 1:02 pm
…. But wait, there’s more. Yes, there’s a physics in life about action begets a reaction. Young people only live for the present and give no heed to the future.
5 larben // Feb 17, 2012 at 3:37 pm
“But this is Canada …”, for a minute I thought you were going to go into the spiel about us being a much kinder and gentler country etc., B.S. The fact that many of these young men and women (and most of them were young, and there were a surprising number of women) never had a criminal record, and many seemed to be from up-right backgrounds, just goes to prove that we are raising Eliotic “hollow men” pleasant on the outside, but nothing other generations of children once learned at their mother’s knee. I bet few of them could numerate the Decalogue, or could recite the Our Father or knew what the Beatitudes are, or any of the simple essentials of any of the great faiths. Could any of them quote the Golden Rule? Doubtful. Now many will say that these things are passe and no longer important to modern men and women, but it appears they are lacking in even basic understanding of right and wrong. That said, I suppose the sentence fits the crime, but there must be financial reparation for their damages too.
6 Mo // Feb 17, 2012 at 4:48 pm
The repercussions from Mr Dickinson’s actions will reverberate throughout his life. He has great odds to overcome.
7 Leah // Feb 17, 2012 at 5:39 pm
A man damages a building/car to the tune of what…say…100K, being generous here…17 months.
Another takes a mans/womans life…something you can’t put a value on…usually out in ten years or less – IF they get that long at sentencing that is.
Another man robs a province of billions…while another allows bankers to rob a country of hundreds of billions…handshakes all around for a job well done.
If you’re going to be dumb enough to break the law – be smart enough to make the value of your crime huge…the law becomes mute, your peers and those who will benefit from your crime will consider you a genius – and people will shake their heads and say…what can we do about it, and go back to their TV.
8 kootcoot // Feb 17, 2012 at 6:13 pm
Good post Harv. Mostly I agree with your take on this sentencing though both e.a.f. and leah made good points in their comments.
My contribution to this discussion is that since Mr. Dickenson’s crimes (in this case of the riots) were against property and not assault that financial compensation to the victims, the taxpayers for the police car and the merchant/bank whose property he destroyed.
9 Bob // Feb 17, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Harv, you forgot that the civil court may not be done with him or ANY of his co-accused yet. Going straight and starting a family sounds nice, but this fellow rioters will also have the impotence of having a monetary judgement hanging over thier heads for a long time as well.
(Response: Very good point. Another burden he (and others who did damage) will have to bear …or carry as a judgment against them if the injured parties or insurers go after them after conviction. As I said, the jail time is only the beginning of the price he will pay. h.o)
10 dan // Feb 17, 2012 at 9:21 pm
Dickenson ignored the court following his first encounter with the system. This second encounter resulted in the court making sure it had his attention.
But I believe this is a mistake; to incarcerate any of these fools will permit them training to be a much improved criminal when they are released.
Because of the business I am in, I have spoken to several people who have had federal sentences. All of them have told me the same thing but using different wordings; there is no rehabilitation in jail. From the first day of incarceration onwards the whole thing is all about the day you are released and nothing more. Sure there are activity and work programs but most are voluntary or come as a result of cooperation, not rehabilitation.
Yes, many of them will have difficulty with employment. Following the often- heard mantra of “paying my debt to society” the frustration of not being able to find employment almost guarantees a life of further crime in some cases.
If Dickenson has earned this length of sentence for property damage, then Harper and his band of sycophants should have a double life sentence for the damages to Canadians and Canada.
11 Henri // Feb 18, 2012 at 12:00 am
Bob // Feb 17, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Harv, you forgot that the civil court may not be done with him or ANY of his co-accused yet.
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Not a lawyer but I don’t think you can them jail , probation,etc. then take them to civil court or sue its one or the other but not both, but if the judge decrees a restitution with the sentence thats different.
(Response: I believe that’s wrong. There have been many many cases of victims waiting until AFTER there is a conviction for wrongdoing and then annnouncing a law suit for civil damages…. like Enron, Bre-X …or many medical impersonation suits. I don’t think it’s either/or where criminal activity is involved. h.)
12 13 // Feb 18, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Harvey, as I read your blog I am confused or amused at the amount of forgivness people want to show criminals. Unless they are politicians then we can hang em high.
Dickenson is a repeat offender and deserves every moment he spends in jail.
The guy that injured the bus driver is a repeat offender and deserves to rot in a jail cell.
Even if jail does not rehabilitate it does keep a repeat offender from hurting anyone or anything for a specific length of time.
The pendalum has swung so far left that we believe that everyone that commits a crime has a good excuse.
Alcohol,drugs, racial background, divorce, abuses of all varieties. Using those as excuses is an insult to the millions of law abiding people that grew up in families where these conditions were present.
I dont care that the rioters have ruined their lives. I dont buy the story that they will be punished enough by their having a criminal record. I believe that if these people ever have an excuse to riot again some will reoffend but most will not becuse they have been punished and HAVE learned a lesson.
(Response: I’ve written on this blog about the frustration so many of us feel when we hear of a 30 or 40-time offender getting just a few months in jail … or even less. But in the context of sentences handed out for other crimes, including violent ones, you can’t suddenly give out five years for smashing a car or store window. As I said, the jail time is only the BEGINNING of the price he (and others) will pay. h.o.)
13 dan // Feb 18, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Once the criminal aspect of the case has been determined then the civil side is addressed. This is usually how it works as the decisions for civil cases are not as stringent. Also the finding of guilt in the criminal side of any case will assist in the findings of the civil side of things.
I mean if the guy is found to be guilty of damaging the car, then it is a slam dunk he is found to be paying the repair bill. The only question remaining would be the ability to pay and at what rate….
(Response: Thanks. That’s how I thought it works. Even if he broke and can’t pay…any award will be there, to be taken out of his salary if he does get a job…or even a lottery win! h.o)
14 JR // Feb 18, 2012 at 6:30 pm
I can attest to the travel limitations. I had one, ONE, bad interaction when I was a young adult, younger than Ryan. Fuelled by testosterone and alcohol I did some damage and got caught. I was also caught up in the moment and made a poor decision. The ramifications of that incident have kept me down for the rest of my life. I straightened out, went back to school, got a trade and have worked ever since. I have married, raised a family, got a house and mortgage and generally have become a tax paying citizen. Unfortunately I could not take my kids to Disneyland, even when they wanted, or vacation in Hawaii or anywhere in the states. Even with a Passport they will not let you pass. The Waiver process is far to prying for my likes and I decided I would not give that level of information to an American Government. I do not trust them to hold the information for its original purpose, see Homeland Security now and you will understand. My future was limited to Canada and that was it. I am split when I see the riot suspects being tarred and feathered in the blogs. I agree that Ryan being a repeat offender should be up for a harder punishment but I would not want to see someone else go through life with the limitations society imposed on me for a first offence. There has to be balance and I hope we can all look past the emotional aspect and look at the people and the lives of those individuals involved. By the way my crime was damaging the landscaping of a pub when I left with a couple of others. They were in the establishment with fake ID and got no charges I was 19 and got hammered as a LESSON to others.
(Response: Thanks for this. Everyone should read it and then read it to their kids. As I recounted on this blog in an earlier piece, I have a good friend, an upstanding retired executive who had visited the US several times on vacations, but after Harper agreed last year to expand previous exchanges of info and turn over to the Americans info on Canadians going back to the beginning of time, my friend got turned back by US immigration at the airport …over a being drunk in public conviction when he was 17 … FIFTY YEARS AGO. The waiver process is so onerous and costly, he has not been to the US since … vacationing elsewhere instead …and costing the economically suffering US thousands and thousands of dollars a year in lost tourism/shopping spending. Multiply that by the thousands now in that predicament and we can see how no one wins with that kind of long-term punishment … but that’s the way it is, and you and I are just keeping it real. h.o)
15 dan // Feb 18, 2012 at 8:31 pm
My mistake on the poor wording Harvey. It should read “the burden of proof for civil cases is not as stringent compared to criminal cases.”
But you get the idea regardless. Yes any income is subject to garnishee terms including any gifts such as lottery wins and even pension plans such as CPP…but not OAP if I recall correctly….
cheers
16 BG // Feb 18, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Hopefully the burglars that broke into MY house and stole MY stuff were at the Stanley Cup riot – because that’s the only way they’ll ever do any jail time.
Like practically every resident of the lower mainland, I’ve had my car and house broken into many times. No one has ever been caught and even if they were they wouldn’t be given any jail time by any judge. The police know that so they don’t bother even trying to catch house burglars.
On the other hand if a guy breaks the window of a Blenz coffee shop during the Stanley Cup riot there’s going to be national man-hunt and calls for his execution.
What’s up with that?
I want the guy who broke into my house to serve a year in jail, the same as the guy who breaks the window of a Blenz coffee shop.
There should be minimum sentencing. We’ve given the judges too much discretion and they’ve blown it. Time to take away their “discretion”.
17 dan // Feb 19, 2012 at 2:26 pm
There is a huge and ongoing drug problem in the Vancouver region that is simply not being dealt with correctly.
The result is a lot of petty crime; break & enter in the home, business, car, etc. The majority of these activities are the result of addicts trying to feed their habits.
This is not the same as a group of alcohol-fueled morons taking their sports team shortcomings out on others property. Apples and oranges.
Although I have no confirmation of this if one views any of the myriad of videos taken during the riot there won’t be many intravenous drug users or anarchists in the video stream. What one does see however is a lot of people who can afford not only to attend the game but dress up in the overpriced memorabilia. The person who breaks into your home simply could not afford those types of expenditures. Not to minimize your invasion of privacy of course.
18 Canadian Malcontent // Feb 19, 2012 at 11:10 pm
I can not help but wonder why these riot cases are making it through the courts so fast? Is their political interference? Do they think they will get votes next year if these are handled fast? I just ask as so many news articles of the last few years how people are getting off, including internet child predators and drunk drivers last week at CBC because the wait for trial is so long….
19 larben // Feb 26, 2012 at 2:04 am
Malcontent – there are thousands of Canadians losing their licenses and jobs because the police stopped them, w/o cause, and found that they had been drinking, though were not impaired, and had broken no law. Since when are the police allowed to stop you for no reasonable cause, (except that you are white, Native, woman, male, .. whatever?) and put you through thousands of $ because they are bored and nothing better to do? All of these cases are causing back-logs in the courts, and should be thrown out.
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