Site C: Liberals Bait the Trap for 2017 Election … NDP and Greens Bite!

I love politics … especially as an observer who enjoys the science of politics.

This week, the Liberals launched their campaign for 2017 … although no one seemed to realize that  (especially the media, who are supposed to be “professional” observers and analysts!).

The announcement that the government will proceed with the Site C Hydro project, was largely proclaimed … not by the Minister responsible for BC Hydro Bill Bennett …  but by Premier Christy Clark herself.

She LOVES to take credit for all BIG projects that the Liberals believe MOST BC voters will approve: that should have been the hint of what’s really happening.

Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!

Thousands of jobs … not only up north (heartland!) but that the Libs believe WILL be under way, despite all the legal challenges, environmental protestors’ threats and any other obstacles that the $8.8 Billion project will face in the next year or two.

And quite predictably, the NDP has failed to come out in support … reportedly calling for “a review by the B.C. Utilities Commission with BC Hydro submitting an alternative plan to Site C for consideration”. The Greens have opposed the dam outright, calling it “the wrong project at the wrong time”.

Ho hum!  The Liberals are probably thankful for that.

Dust off Christy’s hard hat!

Site C will be the 2017 version of the Liberals’ 2013 LNG Billions election strategy.

And remember … it worked!!!

Despite all the criticism, despite all the naysayers, despite all the cynical analysis, despite all the polls … the Liberals were returned to power with a BIGGER majority!

And left the NDP and the Greens in the dust.

Opponents  may not like the damn dam; opponents may ridicule it; opponents may be able to come up with all kinds of logical concerns, reasoning and protests against the damn dam … the Liberals clearly don’t believe that will matter.

Those who say don’t build Site C probably aren’t Liberal voters anyway.

First Nations may huff and puff, but the political reality is they don’t wield enough votes to stop the Liberals for being elected if the majority of British Columbians think it will be good for the province, for their jobs and for their communities.

And with job guarantees and financial compensation for any lost territory, the Libs probably think many First Nations members will eventually go along too.  Kind of a modern-day shakedown.

What the government is no doubt gambling is that MOST working BC voters … especially the silent majority of young families, in search of good-paying jobs  … will come on board and support the Liberals “positive”  jobs plan…. once again

Over the “negative” posturings of the NDP and Greens naysayers.

Did someone say “deja vu”?

Harv Oberfeld

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81 Responses to Site C: Liberals Bait the Trap for 2017 Election … NDP and Greens Bite!

  1. Merv Adey says:

    Absolutely right Harvey. What can one possibly add? The 2017 is exactly what this is and why.

    (Response: 2017 is the date of the next provincial election. Apologies if I didn’t make that clear. h.o)

  2. Splashdancer says:

    Lame posting, low hanging fruit Harvey, 4000 temporary government jobs up in the frozen north subsidized by all the rest, an economic boondoggle in the making which result in all families hydro bills rising exponentially.

    Ho Hum

    Harvey Oberfeld writes the thinnest analytical gruel.

    Yawn

    (Response: Well, it WORKED for them last election, didn’t it??? And I believe that’s what they will do … AGAIN ..whether you like the strategy …or my message about it or not. h.o)

  3. Hugh says:

    So the LNG export idea looks like a bust.
    Are you saying Site C will be a bust as well?
    Then we could spend the $9 Billion on things that make sense.

    (Response: I’m not saying either will be a bust …although they might … just that, as an ELECTION selling point IT WORKED … and I believe that’s what they will be trying again. h.o.)

  4. R says:

    revelstoke site 6 -1 million a mw
    site C 10 million a mw
    1000 percent more expensive for 1100 mw

    so site 6- 500 mw for 420 million dollars
    site C- 1100 mw for 10,000 million dollars
    so 9,580 million dollars more for 600 mw
    Bennett claims sitc C the most economical?

    http://northerninsights.blogspot.ca/2014/12/certainty-of-site-c-cost-overrun-is-86.html

  5. R says:

    1 jan no more lightbulbs for sale

    (Response: Just bought a bunch today at London Drugs! It’s not that the 40 W and 60 W incandescent bulbs will be banned from sale Jan 1 …but that they cannot be made here for domestic use anymore or imported to Canada anymore: however sales can continue beyond Jan 1 until the old stock runs out. h.o)

  6. e.a.f. says:

    fooled me once shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.

    We have seen all of Christy’s promises and what did we see? Nothing.
    No families first.
    No jobs, jobs, jobs.
    Highest rate of child poverty in Canada. Only province with no poverty reduction plan.
    Christy promised LNG plants, 100K jobs, a trillion $s. What did we get? nothing. Then Bill Bennett waxed on about coal. what did we get? Nothing.
    If people vote her into office on the basis of a dam, they deserve what they vote for, nothing.

    This province is deeply in debt. If it weren’t for people going to Alberta for work, this province would be in sad shape.

    We have Christy and Don McRae saying we can’t afford to stop clawing back $17M. from children who live at 50% below the poverty line, but they have $8.77Billion for a dam? There is something wrong with this picture.

    Our schools still haven’t all been brought up to earthquake standards, because they haven’t allocated sufficient funds. But they have money for a dam?

    With a debt load of around $60Billion, I’m sure another $8 or 9 Billion won’t matter, until interest rates go up. We will become Detroit North.

    If people believe B.C. citizens will be getting the jobs, they ought to think again. The contract to build the dam will go to a foreign corporation. Under the trade agreements, they will be able to bring in their own workers. They will not be required to use B.C. workers. Why do you think there are welding schools in the Philipines turning out welders who are being certified by the Canadian Welding Institute?

    With the new regulations for “trained” workers, foreign workers can be on the job in Canada within 10 days.

    Any European company who is awarded the contract will bring in workers from Spain, Greece, Poland, etc. If people are stupid enough to vote her back into office because she has once again promised “jobs” they get what they deserve.

    Premier Photo op is always in election mode, but she still has to deliver on her first set of promises.

    If the NDP, Greens, or any other political party wants to take a good run at the Photo op Queen, they need to remind people of what she hasn’t done since she came to office. This woman can not be believed about anything. The woman stupid enough to run a red light with her kid in the car. Ya, lets elect her premier.

    (Response: Great points..BUT people in BC have shown they don’t vote based on revelations of past failures or even scandals … but on promises of GREAT THINGS to come, even if they haven’t in the past. Boggles the mind…but that’s the truth. h.o)

  7. david hadaway says:

    You could well be right, and given the gullibility of the electorate last time round who could be surprised.

    But suppose LNG is dead in the water, which it likely will be, and suppose the estimated cost of the dam has risen to 16 billion, which is even more probable, and suppose our Hydro bills are going through the roof, which they will. Might the plan backfire?

    (Response: Yes, it could …although the history of elections shows that people buy promises ..even if they have experienced repeated failures to keep promise in the past. How many times have you heard people call politicians liars and castigate them for breaking promises ..and then re-elect them when they make excuses for past failures and then make NEW promises of tax cuts or improvements in services! Who knows …maybe the NDP will come up with some major new promises or job projects on their own (massive investments in public transit?). h.o)

  8. Gene the Bean says:

    Bang on again Harvey.
    If Site C was built through the 1990’s, as it should have, we wouldn’t have all the Liberal supported IPP’s that we are now indebted to for billions of dollars.
    I see your blog has now become noticed by Christy’s “outreach team” and you are getting negative posts on anything that is critical towards the LIEberals. You have reached the big time, congrats.
    Check the IP address on Splashdancer and watch the ‘name’ change monthly but posting the same nonsense in support of the LIEberals….thin gruel indeed.

    (Response: I’ve known for some time that “officials” and party people on all sides read and respond to my rants. (I still have friends in the “business”. ) They’re welcome to give their perspectives and ideas … enhances the discussion. However unlike them, when I write, I try to Keep it Real … not How I Wish It Were. h.o)

  9. r says:

    another election issue
    foster kids flounder under BC Liberals then you read of 11 million dollar bc bollywood awards and then this.

    and they can manage 3 billion massey and 9 billion site c?????

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/18/95-of-b-c-lottery-employees-given-performance-bonuses-for-hitting-ridiculously-easy-targets-report-says/

    (Response: I agree those ARE important issues …but, perhaps unfortunately, NOT what will determine most voters’ choice. h.o)

  10. Noneck says:

    The NDP and Greens deserve to lose if their only strategies are to denounce Liberal big scale development. Until they create legitimate (and viable) alternative plans to counteract these announcements, they will never sway the provincial electorate.

    (Response: Your response should be read over and over again by NDP supporters … because I believe YOU have reflected EXACTLY why they have lost every election since the beginning of the century … and just blaming me for pointing out HOW the Liberals are doing it is NOT the solution. h.o)

  11. r says:

    In BC nat gas turbine ccgt would be 58-62 dollars per mw ,
    but only export is allowed to use to compress gas to liquid.

  12. Penter2 says:

    So Harvey, since you have numerous times put together a post about the fact that whenever the NDP have issues/concerns/oppose one of the BC Libs possible hair-brained ideas, other than the NDP lying down and simply going along with all of the BC Libs (apparent) baiting schemes, what would you suggest the NDP do in future? Not be true to themselves, as the official opposition, and simply cross the floor and join up with the Libs. Why not stop question period while we’re at it? Just close down the Legislature since you’re saying that the NDP are apparently too stupid to see the Libs baiting schemes, each time they put one out there, Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems you may be implying it would be better for the two parties to join forces and become one (with no critical thinking opposition).

    Please tell us your easy solution to all this so that if any NDP members are reading this post, they will be so much more intelligent next time and do the right thing (according to what/who that is?). Thank you.

    (Response: I suggest you re-read my post: I was not disputing or disagreeing with either the policies of the NDP or Greens on Site C. I was telling you that I BELIEVE the Liberals’ announcement regarding Site C revealed what will be THEIR (not mine) next re-election strategy. Period. Would you rather I NOT inform readers of this blog exactly how I see things developing. Change the name from Keeping it Real to Saying What the Left Wants to Hear? (And if think I’m not critical of Christy? Libs…use my search area to check out what I have written about her and Gordon Campbell and the HST and Liberal scandals like BC Rail. As to what should the NDP do in the future … that’s THEIR problem, THEIR policy makers’ and THEIR strategists’. But my advice? Maybe their policies and positions should better reflect what MOST British Columbians …not just the loudest ones … really want, because clearly what they’ve been trying since 2001 is NOT working. h.o)

  13. John's Aghast says:

    You may have a point Harv. By 2017 our economy will be in the tank. All the layed (or is it laid?) off oil sands workers will have returned home. Sales of homes, TVs and washing machines will have dumped. The First Nations court challenges will have been silenced.
    So the ‘General Population’ will be clamouring for ‘construction activity’, promised by the Lieberals.
    What better ploy than promising 100,000 jobs to build a new dam. (Perhaps, if you were building the Pyramids!) I’d be surprised if there was room for 5,000 people on the dam footprint. Not much activity on the rest of the project.
    One thing for sure, I won’t be contributing any tax dollars. I have a 2.5 year plan which includes being long gone if these goons ever get another mandate.

    (Response: Shhhh! You should not have mentioned the pyramids. YOU may have given them the BIG promise … jobs, jobs, jobs … for 2021! h.o)

  14. morry says:

    2017 is a long way off. i don’t see this as an election platform. too many variables in the mix. But this is indeed an good way top keep ms photo op in the news.

  15. 13 says:

    Some get it , some dont. Those that harp about the LIEberals dont get the point youve made. The people that vote (gullible?) voted for the party with a plan. The opposition seems to think that as well as opposing the Liberals they must oppose everything that the Liberals propose.
    Simple stratagy, support all development, allow the enviromental assesments to go ahead , sit back and watch the NDP take aim at their toes an pull the trigger.

  16. Lisa says:

    So the BC NDP opposes the Site C dam. What is even more bizarre is that BC NDP leader John Horgan stated that the government should look at IPPs as an alternative.

    What? The BC NDP has opposed IPPS all along.

    Will someone please tell me what the BC NDP stands for these days?!

  17. Hawgwash says:

    W A C (Wacky as Fotheringham called him) was a master of hoodwinkery.
    He shot a flaming arrow at a barge in Okanagan Lake to “burn the bonds” that held British Columbia’s debt! Drove the first spike in the PGE (BC Rail) and issued BRIC shares to every BC citizen. It was gobbled up like brownies on Hornby Island and he just grinned his way through 7 consecutive elections, to be the longest serving Premier in BC history.

    Funny though, seems like nobody ever voted for him.

    “We have met the enemy and he is us.”
    Pogo 1970

  18. Hawgwash says:

    Noneck @10, you nailed it.
    Barrett was the last time we saw any real guts in an NDP leader.
    Skelly was elected leader in 1984 and with great strength, scared the crap out of the Socreds going into the ’86 election.
    He stumbled.
    The media crucified him.
    The NDP has been content with Opposition pay grade ever since and I am already disappointed in Horgan.

  19. Jay Jones says:

    In other news:

    A convenience store manager ordered chocolate bars today.

    Yawn.

  20. r says:

    Feels like propaganda and were being played.
    The only pyramid in BC will be the debt load.recently 64 billion ,so add 3 for Massey and 10 for site C,that makes 76 billion dollars so by 2020 i feel 80 to100 billion dollars BC debt.
    Just ask Fitch or Moodys.
    unwarranted infrastructure is quickest way to debt.
    Greece had Olympics ,soon after trouble.?

    (Response: Don’t forget the EXTRA costs when it all goes over budget…another BC tradition. BUT still watch for the project, the jobs, the visuals ….and EVERY word the NDP and Greens say AGAINST it to be highlighted by the Libs in the House and esp as the 2017 election campaign takes shape. h.o)

  21. DBW says:

    What exactly are you saying Harvey?

    The question should be whether Cite C is a good thing for BC not whether it is a good election issue for the Liberals.

    If it is good for BC then the Liberals are proving that they deserve to be re-elected.

    If it is bad for BC then people, including you, should be pointing out the flaws so that by 2017 the Liberals do not win on another boondoggle election promise.

    I think the Liberals have proven that they can out campaign the NDP. It might seem that the NDP has relegated itself to opposition status for the next millennium.

    However, that does not mean that the governing party gets to do what it wants regardless of consequences.

    So let’s debate the issue of Cite C as a viable, advantageous project to ensure that the province is getting the best deal regardless of party in power.

    (Response: Yes, whether Site C is good or bad from an economic or environmental or practical point of view SHOULD be debated …and believe me, it WILL be for years. My blog item is not about that: hundreds of others will cover that aspect. MY blog piece was to reveal to my readers and give them what the pundits, too busy canvassing these other issues, have so far missed: that this project WILL be the Libs BIG 2017 election project … jobs, jobs, jobs ….and they are no doubt relishing and hoping the NDP and Greens will want it stopped. h.o)

  22. Gordon Shrum weeps! says:

    C’mon people. Reading is akin to listening. Harv’s post is right on the money. You don’t like the post ’cause you haven’t read it with your eyes, or ears open. Lots of political, moral, ethical, but particularly ECONOMIC issues to oppose Site-C, and that is the challenge facing the NDP. Tiresome and cliché as it is, it’s up to the NDP to give people the alternative and the reason to put them in power. Building trades workers have kids that are growing up in a very uncertain climatic future and I’m fairly certain their views are not what their parent’s views were 30 years ago… Start there. Thanks, Harv.

    (Response: It still amazes me how people log in to read my view, after 38 years covering politics and issues, what I believe is or will happen. And then they get quite insulted and rant at me as biased if they don’t like how I see something…. even though, over time, I have exposed and criticised flaws on EVERY side of the political divides. h.o)

  23. D. M. Johnston says:

    The Christy Liberals have already won the 2017 election and the NDP should just go back to night school and learn to be an opposition.

    The real shame is that Horgan is just a figurehead as the real movers and shakers of the BC NDP seem to be a triumvirate of Meggs, Dix, and Eby and their backroom boys.

    The party that could has now been ossified with dated thinking, grand spending, and a complete snub to those who voted NDP.

    Sad.

    (Response: Not necessarily. Lots of water to flow under the bridge before we get to 2017 …and maybe the NDP will come up with a major job-creating policy and plans of their own? h.o)

  24. Hugh says:

    Sure, Site C would mean jobs up north, but they would be temporary construction jobs.

    But the project would add to the already rising Hydro rates, which hurts businesses and homeowners.

    (Response: EVERY construction job is temporary. But let’s keep it real: for the hundreds of thousands in the industry or those who make and supply them all the materials needed … it WOULD BE a goldmine! And I can guarantee you that Hydro rates WILL go up, whether Site C is built or not. h.o)

  25. Ron says:

    Look Harvey, If you believe that “elections” are on the up and up nowadays, I will have to quit reading this blog.
    I worked for one election and believe me, imo, it’s a sham!!!!!
    No matter who you vote for, the ones the Masters want in will get in.
    This country is run by fascists that are bleeding us dry and will continue to do so until a revolution happens and they bomb all us plebes as terrirosts to smithereens, thereby completing their plan all along.
    (Why do you think they all have (edited..h.o) grins on their faces when they’re campaigning).
    It’s all in the plan.
    Prepare to be bent over until you do something about it.
    But I guess it gave you a pretty lucrative career, eh?

    (Response: If you ANY evidence that elections are fixed, please go directly to the RCMP with that evidence!! I suspect you wouldn’t think it was a sham if the party you supported had won. Why not enlighten us all how “the Masters” get more ballots marked in favour of one group they want in, even when more choose another candidate? And yes, covering it all gave me a great career, lots of fun and decent pay …what’s wrong with that? But I wouldn’t exactly describe it as “lucrative”. h.o)

  26. R says:

    its raining money over at BCLC?
    how many went to paragon?

    BC students seen at BC foodbanks
    What BC Liberals fear the most.?
    Loss of the narrative.?

    Promote Virk to IT cabinet position
    and all is not well.

    Revelstoke site 6 ,for 420 million dollars, to make 500 mw electricity would make too much sense.

    Hold on
    We just bought some IPP energy hit the BC Hydro dam bypass switch!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6mGU0W_2tU

  27. Gene the Bean says:

    Harvey, love your responses to the ‘ranters’ – I guess they simply don’t understand you or your blog’s role…seems simple enough to me 🙂

    One comment on those ragging on the NDP – keep it up. As some of you (probably not) will remember my posts here and on other sites re what the NDP should do when John Horgan took power.

    The ENTIRE NDP structure has to be blown up and rebuilt – UNDER A NEW NAME. The NDP and the scores of hangers-on are entrenched in second place and are all very happy, thank you very much, to continue to collect very good pay cheques and use very good benefit plans without having to do ‘the work’ of government.
    The NDP is very comfortable and doesn’t really care about us anymore.

    If Horgan doesn’t have the kahuna’s to turn the whole thing upside down – then sorry to say folks, we are stuck with the lying, thieving under-performing Liberals forever.

    The NDP are now and forever will be UNELECTABLE in BC.

    I have met John Horgan twice and I am VERY impressed. He would be a great premier, but unless he loses the dozens and dozens of lamprey-like NDP staffers and ‘professional second-placers’ he will never be anything except the opposition.

    It is now or never….

    (Response: I disagree … partially. I think there are MANY NDPers provincially who really want the party to return to being a party of WORKING people, WORKING families … the SILENT MAJORITY …not just cater to the loudest far left activists, the corporation haters and First Nation radicals (LOTS of First Nation people want those dam jobs too!). But I do agree with you about the NDP federally: they have sold out BC’s interests to win Eastern votes so often (read my earlier blogs about them) , while collecting those good paycheques and privileges for themselves. h.o)

  28. 13 says:

    Harvey, its awesome the response to your topic. Its almost like you have been caught buying a xmas gift for Christy. The left wingers must be ready to explode. The right wing has planted posters on your blog. Its a plot. Even the poster child for NDP support has come out to support the transit referendum. Bill Tielman. Theyve got to him. Hes a liberal toady.
    And the election is still years away.

    (Response: Maybe my prediction will be wrong. But I call it as I see it. If Site C construction becomes a BIG election play by the Libs, I’ll remind everyone of this blog piece: if it’s toast by then and not an issue at all, I’ll say nothing! But I’m sure OTHERS will remind me. LOL! h.o)

  29. Don says:

    I just want to remind you, John Horgan was the energy critic before becoming leader. He is well aware of the issues with site c and hopefully will give miss mouthpiece a run for her money. One of the above posters suggested Horgan was a figurehead. What the heck is Cristy, a cheerleader?

  30. nonconfidencevote says:

    Very interesting editorial Harvey.
    I was working with union workers the past few weeks and several that I was directly involved with were aboriginal.
    Their comments about Site C and the NDP were surprising.
    One was annoyed that the NDP was against the dam ( “dont they realize the jobs it will create?”). The other was laughing and commenting about which of his aboriginal friends and relatives would line up either for the inevitable fiscal handouts or for the environmental coalition.
    Very informed comments, very astute.
    I asked a few of the non native workers what they thought about the Site C announcement .
    Their replies were, ‘I dont watch the news.” or “I watched the Canucks game”.
    Voters deserve who ever is in power and shouldnt be allowed to complain.

    (Response: I have been on several native reserves … and it bothered me terribly to see the effects of almost generational unemployment and welfare …esp the impact on the kids. More of their leaders should start keeping it real: resource jobs, infrastructure jobs are the key to JOBS and a better life: there’s no point hoping General Motors or Microsoft will build manufacturing plants, office or operations centres up in their area! (Some of their leaders would probably oppose those too, comfortably lining their own pockets as they do so. And all their relations.) Time for natives themselves, who WANT good-paying resource-based jobs, to stand up and support and demand them. h.o)

  31. Sailjunkie says:

    Hi Harvey,

    While your point may be well taken, I really hope that you are wrong on this.

    In all of the recent noise about this, I have yet to hear anyone ask if it is good public policy.

    Is it? It was originally shelved 30+ years ago because the need for that power was question. Sadly, I understand that Hydro’s forecasting accuracy hasn’t improved very much.

    Further, the recent federal review was a lukewarm endorsement at best. They agreed that there would be significant adverse environmental and economic impacts for local residents and First Nations.

    The one independent body who might be able to say if Site C is good public policy is the BC Utilities Commission. Interestingly, they have been specifically excluded from reviewing this project.

    So, Christy gets to spend close to $9 billion on a re-election project and the Main Stream Media can do is act as cheerleaders? If Horgan feels that Site C is bad public policy, does he serve the public interest by joining the cheer leading section?

    You may be right about the political consequences, but as a tax payer, it’s about time that someone starting looking out for ALL of BC. Sometimes, that means that some shows leadership by putting the PUBLIC interest ahead of their political interest.

    Finally, someone once said that a week is an eternity in politics. May 2017 is 2.5 years away. 1.5 years ago, we were all told that LNG would be BC’s salvation. Just sayin’! 🙂

    (Response: We agree. I never vote …or let’s say the more experienced and older I get … never vote based on promises I know will either never come true or will cost more than they’re worth, etc. But I believe the Libs couldn’t care less about voters like me (or others) who reason those things through: they’re after the others …who hear BIG job numbers, BIG revenue numbers and, frankly, like to see BIG projects … and can deliver BIG vote numbers. h.o)

  32. morry says:

    Gary Mason in today’s Globe&Mail has some anaylsis http://bit.ly/1CevmHW

    as well in the G&M http://bit.ly/1sK6G1o article on the Documentary DamNation .

    Lots of folk paying attention.

  33. Keith E. says:

    Hi Harvey,

    A couple of episodes ago, J, Horgan was on voice of B.C. and asked his position on Site C. His reply was “it was the right project at the wrong time” (close enough), going on to make a decent case for his position. Obviously he could viewed as correct or fence sitting dependent on left or right leanings.

    As Don # 29 pointed out he was the energy critic that I thought was very good as he knew his stuff and shouldn’t need advice.
    Suckered into a corner or not, I would be asking the following;

    Unless there is 9 billion under a mattress it has to be borrowed, who from.?

    At what interest rate, and for how long.

    Will the debt be on the B.C. books or hydro’s, and if hydro, will it shufffled a debt defferal account and the govt. still drawing an annual dividend.?

    What are the projected cost over runs.?

    What is the process for compensating the communities affected by the flooding.

    The work is slated to start in 2015, where are the results of the preliminary work done so far.?

    I could go on, but you get the point, hopefully the opposition does then start asking the sticky questions so they can tell the usually disengaged punter at least we told you so if this falls apart like LNG.

    (Response: LOTS of good questions …and I hope the “working” media will press them. I suspect the Libs know the answers to some would not be comforting to taxpayers …but they also know from past experience that BIG promises impress voters …and in elections, sorry to say THAT’S what counts …literally. h.o)

  34. r says:

    re 30
    not news or canucks

    Ignored democracy tends to become a kleptocracy

  35. kootcoot says:

    “If you ANY evidence that elections are fixed, please go directly to the RCMP with that evidence!”

    Why bother, the HarperCONS have cheated in every election since 2006. With the RCMP in their pockect and the neutering of Elections Canada they can pretty well do what ever they want.

    Likewise in B.C. the RCMP consider their duty to be protection for the Criminal Organization otherwise known as the BC LIEberals. That’s why they persecuted Glen Clark for a small deck but let anything the liaR party do anything they want and either clear them or ignore the law bteakiing. I’m almost ashamed to live in Canada anymore under the criminal administration of Harper and Criusty Clark.

    It is also disgusting that the perjurer and bribe recipient Bormannnnnn is allowed to practice law in any civilized jurisdiction

  36. Malcontent says:

    Why would the Libs need to worry about next election? They have the next 2-3 + elections sewn up as no one to replace them. The Greens and NDP will duke it out and split the vote until a viable alternative comes up or the NDP finally realises it is over for them in BC and they should fade away faster. Horgan may be a good guy but yet again the NDP elect a leader from the 90’s and that is just giving the BC Libs and their corporate media pals a gift horse….

    Some good comments here but the fact is the low info voters, and the greedy etc will always vote for the furthest right wing party. The low info voters are a danger to the country.

    (Response: I disagree: the NDP COULD win again provincially … IF they started listening to the majority of working families in the interior and up north ..a. nd came up with BIG job-creating policies, and not cater so much to the loud voices who oppose anything that has to do with resource development or any big corporations. h.o.)

  37. larry Bennett says:

    Re: Harvey’s reply to #22 – I just couldn’t resist! Just watched (on Shaw T.V. , channel 4) the senior reporter, and columnist, Vaughn Palmer interviewing Bob Williams (of past NDP glory).
    I was not surprised by the slow-pitch style questions he lobbed at Bob – I was surprised that he didn’t lean across the desk and kiss him full on the lips! (Not that the there’s anything wrong with that!).

    (Response: It saddens me that there is so little tough questioning anymore of politicians. Even on Site C, I would have come out and asked whether this was her BIG election ploy … not that she would have admitted it, but it would have been fun for all to watch her skate around it! h.o)

  38. nonconfidencevote says:

    I think we’re beginning to see generational change with the younger aboriginals. These two guys that I work with are both young family men with kids. They both work full time and have gone up to Kitimat to work as well. They have their kids involved in sports , fishing hunting etc.
    They were laughing the other day because one of their aboriginal friends was laid off a week ago and took his young kids trout fishing for several days…..until his wife found out he wasnt looking for work. she put a stop to his “traditional lifestyle” excuse with , “Save that crap for the tv cameras, get out and find a job!”

    (Response: Make no mistake: the vast majority of First Nations people do work, have good jobs and have the same dreams and goals for their families as the rest of us do. But unemployment rates are still far too high, partly because of the location/remoteness of many reserves. Resource jobs (lumber, mining, pipelines, LNG plants, and Site C) CAN help change that …IF they themselves and their leaders started demanding those jobs instead of just shooting down almost every project that could place BIG bucks in their people’s bank accounts. h.o)

  39. 13 says:

    Welcome back L. B. With yourself and BMCQ mia
    its been a bit lonely out here in right field.

    So the elections are fixed and two levels of governmnent are criminals.
    Voters are low info. I have a friend that has been telling me for a decade that I am the only person he knows that admits voting for the BC Liberals.
    I dont think of myself as aiding and abeting criminals nor do I feel low info. Oh well .

    MERRY CHRISTMAS to everyone

  40. Laura says:

    If BIG projects created lots of jobs and wealth then BC’s debt wouldn’t have skyrocketed and its economy flat-lined.

    harv, its all well and good to say the NDP has to support big mega projects or lose but I would say I’d rather lose and lose and lose than support bad policies.

    Like our mothers used to say, if so and so jumped off a bridge, would you? Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond has pointed out over and over again how hard the Liberals are on kids, should the NDP support those policies too in order to win elections? You may say yes, but I would say no.

    If the Liberals keep winning elections by hurting the economy via claiming its still the 1800s and you have to have mega-projects going on or the sky will fall, fine.

    The people of BC can’t blame anyone but themselves for their high poverty rates and debt. And as BC is left behind, other jurisdictions will move forward.

    Better to lose elections than to lose one’s principles and support things you know are wrong.

    (Response: Your high principles are very laudable. In my own career, I have followed the same path … tried to ALWAYS stand by my principles … and as I have detailed on this blog previously, I paid a very high price for that, where it would have been much easier to go along or not speak out, like when I supported the union getting certified in the BCTV newsroom and then became CEP 814M vice president during our subsequent negotiations and 33-day strike. And I would NOT change a thing. But there was a time when the CCF and the NDP DID support major job-creating public projects that brought really good-paying jobs… dams and mines etc … to thousands. And in Europe, where agricultural land is even more critical, socialist governments DO support all kinds of mega-projects, including dams, even nuclear power, as long as they strictly mitigate impact on rivers, farmlands and the environment … and they get elected…and re-elected. Maybe there’s a lesson in that? h.o)

  41. Laura says:

    Just to add to the above… I don’t think you or many other people want a party like the NDP to vote for, instead you want two Liberal parties, each trying to out promise the other with bigger and bigger projects.

    Which is fine, that’s where your politics are. But that’s not where mine are.

  42. larry Bennett says:

    Numerous commentators will be happy to know, that I cannot vote in the next provincials, unless we have a conservative option in my riding in Burnaby, as I will no longer vote Liberal, for any reason, given that party’s decision in the Trinity Western University debacle, which gives us to wonder about the real reason for the Virk move. For similar reasons I will no longer give my custom to products sold under the auspices of Proctor and Gamble (Tide), or Cheerios (General Mills), and had I accounts at the Bank of Montreal or the Toronto Dominion, they would be closed.
    The British lawyer, Leo Abse, who fought for the decriminalization of homosexuality (and rightfully so) in England back in the ’50’s, was quick to inform us that because something is no longer illegal, that it is not therefore virtuous. I have in the past, given financial support to Trinity although not being an Evangelical Christian, because I thought that freedom of religious conviction was absolutely essential to any democracy. Not wishing to sound hectoring or hysterical, or like a ranting religious ecstatic, I do believe that we must stand for what we believe in – what to do, what to do?

  43. nonconfidencevote says:

    Harvey your comment to Laura (#40) has a ring of common sense to it.
    Just because the NDP are pro union doesnt mean they have to be anti developement.
    I dont necessarily mean more Dams or (God help us)fracking.
    How about the boring stuff like improved highways(the Trans Canada between Kamloops and Golden comes to mind) , upgraded sewers, water lines, new bridges where needed( Massey tunnel is a parking lot twice a day). And pipelines are the answer not the enemy. Transporting oil by train is archaic, and dangerous. Lac Megantic is the canary in the coal mine. It will happen again.
    The provincal population is growing whether we like it or not. Those people will need jobs.
    Jobs require icky things like “industry”, “fuel” and “transportation”.
    NIMBY naysayers remind me of the Luddites smashing the machines that replaced their jobs in the 18th century, unwilling to compromise or change.
    Reality sucks but better daycare, a cleaner environment or more Parks has to be paid for with (gasp) taxpayers dollars.
    The govts on all levels are tapped out so dont expect the handouts to come flowing down to you unless you want higher taxes , higher deficits and more pablum served to you with a gold plated borrowed spoon.

    (Response: Union workers ..and all other workers need jobs! Good paying jobs. And in a huge resource rich province like BC, the best of those jobs will come out of the ground or across it or from harvesting what’s above it. And ALL of that requires getting dirty and disturbing the landscape. I can’t also help but notice: so many of the people/groups calling for more housing, more inner city services, more transit, more health care, much more spending on environmental improvements, better pensions for seniors, more funding for veterans services, better education in secondary schools, more funding of post-secondary institutions, more subsidies for BC ferries, more funding for First Nations services …and believe it or not, MORE studies too …are the same people who froth at the mouth when you just refer to a BIG profit-making corporate development and vow to stop ANY mega project that will provide thousands of a jobs and raise billions in corporate and personal taxes to pay for those demands. h.o)

  44. Scotty on Denman says:

    Christy Clark wasn’t elected—excuse me, let me rephrase that—the BC Liberals weren’t re-elected because of LNG, pipelines or anything other than an NDP campaign that was so incredibly stupid that that handful of decisive fence-sitters couldn’t imagine the same applying to actually running a government. Remember it was Dix’s pusillanimity, and his alone, that did the NDP in, that blew a 20-point lead, that panicked the lilly-livered-but-inaccessible leader into last minute flip-flopping on Kinder Morgan in hopes of salvaging an already-lost campaign. Christy, of course, did not win her own seat, despite her hard hat and jobs-jobs-jobs.

    Oh, sure, the BC Liberals and pipeline proponents (really the same bunch, despite Christy’s Confucian “Five Conditions”) love to interpret their win as an endorsement of pipelines, vis a vis the KM flip-flop, but polls of all bias levels consistently show a solid majority of British Columbians resolutely against them, a majority large enough to conclude party lines have been crossed on this issue—which is, naturally, why Christy feigns reticence when everybody knows, especially many of her own supporters, that the BC Liberal government is all in on pipelines—it just has a healthy fear of the electorate’s opposition.

    Same thing with hard hats and job-jobs-jobs. Nobody, especially not real wearers of hardhats, is fooled by a prancing majorette wearing coveralls tailored to fit her curves tight enough as to be useless for actual work. Why, I bet she had her head-gear wound tight enough the wind could never blow it off—she’d definitely rip the arse out of her tights—I mean, “workers’ coveralls”—if she tried to pick it up. Again, Harvey, you’re crowing with the rooster when you attribute the BC Liberal win to Christy’s hard hat antics. Fact is Dix handed the BC Liberals a win they definitely didn’t deserve—except that they looked more decisive about hard hats compared to their rival who wouldn’t stand up for anything if his life depended on it. Remember?…Dix did not once attack the shameful Liberal record, nor defend against preposterous personal attacks against him; it was ridiculous and tragic all at once.

    Site C? Let the debate rage on—we should simply remember that the BC Liberals haven’t earned our trust on anything, much less the largest public expenditure in BC history. It’s enough to make one wish it was as simple as hard hats. Really, Harvey, pretty shallow analysis, what?

    (Response; What’s shallow is your position that the election of the Libs was solely due to Dix and the NDP’s lousy campaign. The truth is there are always SEVERAL factors that decide elections, and frankly, it’s quite silly to suggest there are only one or two reasons for an entire election outcome in which millions of people voted. Those that you poo-pooh … like Christy’s BEING THERE on job sites etc. in a hard hat DID indeed impress people (even if not you or me); the promise of LNG Billions … and the thousands of jobs that could result … DID impress a LOT of people, esp in the interior and up north; and, yes, sometimes just how a leader looks on camera (fumbling, sweating, flip-flopping) works too. And I believe so will another BIG project, BIG promises and BIG photo ops …in the hard hat. h.o)

  45. D. M. Johnston says:

    Reading the 44 past posts, I see how the BC Liberals will continue to win elections. Like a pendulum of a clock, the BC Liberals will announce big ticket items, promising jobs, jobs, jobs.

    It was LNG last year, but as the petro industry has dissolved of late and now its site C and when site C is mired in the courts, it will be the Broadway big dig.

    The NDP are still marooned on a desert isle with its band of no-nothings who always rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, ever hoping for different results.

    I am tired of the NDP because they had three election cycles to get things right and they haven’t not even close.

    BC is bereft of any political party with a vision for the future and all parties plan for the next election and trundle out all their repackaged goods to offer the voter. Trouble is, most voters won’t buy the NDP schtick and party brass just can’t get their heads around that.

    I’ll give the NDP a hint: The region needs a long term vision for Vancouver up to hope and there isn’t one. We need to plan for a sustainable regional transit plan, that will not cost an arm and a leg.

    Sadly, this is beyond the NDP ken as they will settle for big ticket subways or SkyTrain extensions and to hell with the future. Well, we have that with the BC Liberals, why vote for the NDP?

    It doesn’t matter that instead of the Massey Tunnel being a parking lot during peak hours, that the parking lot will only move a few kilometres down the road, because a New Bridge will attract votes.

    If Horgan can’t get the likes of Dix, James, Kwan, to quietly retire (Libby knew when to go) and distance himself from Moonbeam and Meggs, in fact the entire Vision Vancouver team, we will see Clark well into the next decade.

    The only thing that can stop Clark and the BC Liberals is the bankrupting of BC and they way they are downloading costs onto the peons, I think that day is coming sooner, than later, say 2018?

    (Response: Many of the projects you and others mention …transit, Massey Tunnel, new bridges, Broadway subway … require really BIG bucks. That’s the challenge for the NDP …how to create or support big projects providing huge numbers of jobs to employ British Columbians in better than Mcjobs, and thus produce the royalties and tax bucks to do the rest … all the while protecting the environment and providing First Nations involvement (not just a cash shakedown). The impression I believe most voters get is that the party currently caters to those last two important elements, but doesn’t have a clue or a plan for the rest of the requirements. h.o)

  46. 13 says:

    Im 61 years old. I havent missed a vote since I turned 19. Every provincial and federal ballot I dropped in a box was a vote for an NDP mla or mp until 2001. I watched the NDP sit on their rear end in the eighties as governments deregulated everything including the kitchen sink. I watched my private sector union give in to the two tiered contract because they didnt have the guts to say NO to that stupidity. I watched as the private sector unions became lame duck representation and provided not much more that a tax deduction. I watched the public sector unions outpace their private sector unions by leaps and bounds. I kept waiting for the NDP to stand up for private sector workers unioized or otherwise. I waited for the NDP to wake up.
    Not only have they forsaken most workers other that the public sector they have watched their own dip into the pork barrell. They have crossed the floor. They have sat silently on their rears while the portland bunch went wild with tax payers money.
    I can hear the screams allready about how the Liberals are no better maybe worse. Maybe they are but the NDP have sold out their worker base to try and be what they were never meant to be .
    And when you look at the pandering they do in Quebec, and in BC opposing pipelines you wonder why? I guess not to many CUPE or BCGEU types building pipelines or dams or ???

    (Response; Clearly spoken from the heart and from true experiences. And I believe YOU and a million others like you represent the REAL problem the BC NDP faces. But are they listening? (The fed NDP is already a sellout when it comes to giving BC it’s RIGHTFUL place or fair powers/say in Ottawa and is a lost cause …for all but Quebeckers.) h.o

  47. 13 says:

    Seems to me that Ive given most of this spiel in the past. So the only thing thats realy changed is the NDP have become less relevant than ever. They sort of support workers? They sort of support enviromentalists? The even jump at photo ops with Telus execs?

    If Horgan opposses the dam he will as many have pointed out be the eternal opposition.

    (Response: Well, in a parliamentary democracy, the opposition is NOT irrelevant: THEY expose the scandals, the mis-spending, the patronage, the waste by the government. And they have paid researchers to help do it. Who else would do it? There are still a few very bright lights in the media …but most are too friendly, too bored, too tired or just not much more than press release repeaters. The ONLY place in Canada where the Opposition is now almost irrelevant is Alberta, where the Opposition traitors sold out to those they are supposed to be critiquing. And by the way, those who did not cross the floor and remained to do THE JOB deserve our thanks, our appreciation ..and re-election. h.o)

  48. BMCQ says:

    My opinion is not worth much here but I must comment that while reading through this whole thread I cannot helped but be impressed with the number of very astute observations made by so many!! For many of you it must be very frustrating to witness what is taking place right before your eyes!

    Let’s be honest here, “Hard Hat” Union folks want and need work, simple fact!!! Those people believe in the big projects that provides them a way to pay off Mortgages, put Children through School and allows them a chance to purchase a new Pick Up every few years.

    There are huge changes taking place within The NDP Establishment/Hierarchy itself and traditional NDP Supporters/Voters!

    I am not trying to be too simplistic here but I can easily see a split between the Private Sector Union types in The NDP which would include elected MLA’s like Horgan and other MLA’s from Rural outlying areas like the North, Interior, and other resource type jurisdictions.

    This would leave the Left side of the Party in Urban areas like Vancouver and Victoria breaking off and forming a sort of coalition with the Green Party, the Green side of The NDP including “The Loony Left” MLA Brigade like Kwan, Eby, Dix, Heyman, Simpson etc.etc. Needless to say that Spolinter Group would take almost all of The BCTF, Nurses, and other Public Sector Union Workers.

    That would leave Horgan, his group and most of the Private Sector Unions looking for somewhere to Hang their hats. We could very well then see some sort of a coalition Government between what is now The B.C. Liberals and that NDP group. Is that too far fetched for most of you?

    FYI, we currently see a Political Coalition similar to that in much of The Northern EU Sector of Countries.

    Someone up the page said The NDp blew a 20 point lead in the last election. That is not true, the Polling carried out today is flawed. Most of today’s polling is done on line, those that take part are youngish, Left of Centre ideologues that Poll on line while living in their Mothers Basements, they do not leave their house to cast a ballot on Voting day. FYI – In the last Provincial Eelction The Libs had their own Polling guy that took polls “The Old Fashioned way” and he had them very close to even the days just before the Election. Same thing happened in the last Federal election, remember when we were told Ignatieff had a chance/ what about The Wild rose in Alberta? They were favoured to win the day before the Election there!! Same goes for last Quebec Election!!!! Once again Polling is Flawed!!!!!

    You also see Trudeau leading in Federal polling right now. Just wait until Election Day and watch when Trudeau and that Campaigning Genius Mulcair each end up with about 70 Seats!!!

    As a matter of fact polling should be banned within 60 days of any Election day!!

    H.O.

    You really managed to get the thought process working on everyone with this topic!

    Even more importantly I must say I am really impressed with the amount of absolutely devastating “Counter Punches” you have thrown back against your detractors here!!! I suppose some of your regulars feel you have abandoned them on this. To the contrary I believe you have just pointed out some very important facts and it is time those NDP supporters that post here and those others that just read and the others that vote for The NDP finally realize that the NDP are quickly becoming irrelevant!!

    You may be aware that I am a “Free Enterprise” individual that is in Private Business. I have mentioned here before that I am not happy with much of what G. Campbell, CC, and others have done while running B.C. but I must look at the alternative.

    I could never in good conscience turn The Province I love over to a group led by the likes of Eby, Dix, Simpson, Heyman, Farnworth and oh yes the current NDP Food Restaurant and Wine Critic Jenny Kwan!!!!

    Noncon and H.O. – # 38

    Great insight, thanks!

    13 – #46

    Brilliant!! Take a Bow!!

    Yes I know far too long!

    (Response: I expect at some given point on some given topic, every participant and reader of this blog will feel I turned on them and am just voice for the other side. Ho hum. The truth is, on different topics, at different times on different issues I have supported different parties ..and can admit I’ve voted, at some point for the BC and federal NDP, the BC and federal Libs, the BC Greens, the NPA and yes, even Vision. But the idea that ANY party is always right on every topic or action is just ridiculous… and I believe those who fall blindly in line every time are a bit sad. h.o)

  49. Hugh says:

    BC Hydro debt is now about $16 billion.
    It’s hiding $billions of expenses in deferral accounts. It owes over $50 billion to IPPs. There’s a limit, I think.

    (Response: What’s a few Billion more to a party trying to win another term in power … if they think it will work! h.o)

  50. Laura says:

    Guys, you’re not thinking this through. If all those big projects you want to build created the economic benefits you all claim, then our economy wouldn’t have been puttering along at a lower growth rate than it had during the NDP years and we wouldn’t be drowning in debt.

    Think about it.

    If the NDP is so bad for the economy because it focuses on the little guy and day-to-day concerns and not on ego projects then why was economic growth and population growth higher during the NDP reign? And why is it the Liberals have created debt faster than any previous government?

    Now I agree your rhetoric sounds great. Build pyramids, provide jobs, it will pay for social programs and parks…

    But you’re not looking at reality, that isn’t what happens. Those projects are not funding social programs, they are increasing debt.

    They are not creating good jobs, in fact wages fell during the first 5 years of BC Liberal rule and poverty hasn’t fallen. But direct taxpayer-supported debt has gone from 34 billion to almost 70 billion and indirect debt, ie, payment to P3s, has gone from almost 0 to over 100 billion. That is madness!

    All the things you claim aren’t happening, didn’t happen and won’t happen. At some point you have to wake up and stop drinking the kool-aid and think about the actual numbers and what they mean. Not keep believing in fantasy economics.

    I’m sorry if the above comes across as rude. I don’t mean it to be. We’re all BCers, we’re all in this together. I have coached kids and don’t care if their parents are right-wing or left-wing, I get along very well with everyone, I don’t worry about a person’s politics when we sit and laugh at the same jokes. We are all on the same side.

    But you need to look at the facts and think about why they are what they are.

    (Response: Very valid points, to be sure. Unfortunately, BC voters have shown they do BUY the BIG project promises and dreams ..no matter how pie-in-the-sky they may be on closer examination. And frankly, although it worked 30 years ago for Bill Bennett to promise restraint instead of public spending, I think BC voters these days have shown they WANT mega promises enough to re-elect a totally scandal-ridden administration that proved itself inept in so many areas. h.o.)

  51. Gini says:

    I haven’t read each and every one of the above comments, but I think I’ve read enough to know that most of the great citizens of B.C. are out to lunch when it comes to energy and jobs.

    Nobody seems to realize that we are sitting on some of the biggest geothermal energy reserves on the planet. For about 1/4 of what it’s going to cost the taxpayers to build Site C, geothermal could power just as many, if not more, B.C. homes.

    Then we have solar and wind energy, which are becoming much more affordable, and methods of storage are now available. Just think how many jobs could be created if our neanderthal industry-challenged governments would get their flooding, fracking heads out of their backsides and get with the renewable energy program (excluding hydro), we could lead Canada into the 21st century……finally!

    (Response: Well, maybe is those ideas you cite are economically viable and can create good jobs for British Columbians, the NDP should take a hard look at them as alternative policies. Clearly …judging by previous actions of the voters …they HAVE TO come up with SOMETHING that will allow Horgan to do a hard hat and pose for silly pictures too! 🙂 h.o

  52. larry Bennett says:

    13 is correct in that the provincial NDP (in B.C.) don’t know whether sh*t or go blind! That said, there is no way, as BCMQ has suggested, that Horgan and his rump would be conjoined with the Libs – it is too far-fetched and not at all fetching – for either party! It could work in Alberta between the Wild Rose and the Conservatives, though I think those Albertans who voted Wild Rose will not be breaking out in ecstatic epithalamions, or dancing wide sarabands down the mainstreets of Calgary and Edmonton as a result of any such nuptials.

    (Response; You’re right..that will NEVER happen. But the NDP must still decide: do they want to just remain in well-principled Opposition, exposing Lib scandals, screw ups, opposing mega projects, anything that upsets any First Nation or anti-corporation extremists or do they actually want to achieve power ….by offering their own versions of MAJOR job-creating projects that will all attract the votes of not only urban or armchair environmentalists young working families in the interior and north. h.o)

  53. harry lawson says:

    Harvey,

    you are right the election campaign has started. it is now up to the ndp to either step up ad offer leadership or go the way of the dodo bird.

    when i say leadership i am talking about offering alternatives .

    we are going to spend 9 billion on a dam that will provide 10 years employment for maybe a couple of thousand workers plus spin off jobs. is it good public policy now?

    there have been great strides in alternative energy productions. the patents are being granted . we are talking about large companies , GE. Lockheed. Rockwell etc.

    would it not make sense to try to become a manufacturing hub for these companies and we will employ tens of thousands for generations ?

    you just cant keep saying no all of the time ,you need to offer alternatives .

    (Response: It’s very strange ..and maybe indicative of the problems posed by NDP supporters themselves: I wrote a blog saying I believe the Libs will use Site C, jobs, jobs, jobs, etc. and NDP/Greens lack of support as the big election deal in 2017 … and several NDP supporters attack ME for supporting Site C! Clearly they missed the entire point of my Keeping it Real piece …where I alerted them and the party to what will happen. Hopefully the party/strategists will be better focussed …esp on what you and many others are now saying: it’s not good enough to just oppose or question, they “need to offer alternatives”. h.o)

  54. Gordie says:

    I agree, Harvey. It also occurred to me that the announcement to build Site C was designed to deflect peoples minds away from the faltering LNG debacle.

    (Response: Not to mention the debacles at BC ferries, BC health, BC Lotteries etc. h.o)

  55. r says:

    Revelstoke site 6 1 million dollars a megawatt.
    site C 10 million
    10,ooo million dollars for 600 Mw more.

  56. BMCQ says:

    I was merely attempting to point out that there is and will be a bigger split in The Provincial NDP. I honestly believe that many of the NDP MLA’s from the so-called Heart Land have more in common with B.C. Liberals over-all than they do with the “Higher Purpose People” that sit as NDP MLA’s in Vancouver, Victoria, and Burnaby. I then suggested and only suggested that eventually there will be a formal split and the Horgan types will need an affiliation of sorts because the Left side of the MLA’s will find a home with the “Green” types. Maybe not under the Green Banner but a “Hybrid thereof!!

    Laura

    You are certainly not as rude as I am so I am sure your welcome here.

    Only one question here.

    Why not ask some of the folks that worked on the Port Man Bridge, Hwy 1 improvement, B.C. Stadium Rebuild, Sea to Sky, Canada Line, Whistler/Black Comb, The Olympics, and all of the STILL existing legacy Venues of the past ten years and the 2010 Olympics where they might have been working? Why not also ask the same people how many of those things they think we might have in B.C. under Premier James, Dix, etc.etc.? Maybe even another question for some of your friends that drive into work to Vancouver from Abbotsford or Langley each day or take Canada Line from somewhere else, would we have had any of those under Premier Dix or James?

    Do not ask me because my opinion is obvious biased and so wrong headed!

    I tend to agree with H.O., Gordie, and others that LNG could be in trouble and The Site “C” was rolled out as a “Hope” to the future. I do not pretend to be an expert on Hydro but I felt that Site “C like the old Can should have been kicked somewhere off into the next 5 years or so and then bring it back for discussion.

  57. larry Bennett says:

    BMCQ – I would agree with you on the concept of up-country NDPers changing their allegiances (if not social values) for the sake of jobs in a healthy economy.

  58. Laura says:

    BMCQ, thank you.

    The “investments” you mention have not only not paid off, they have made our financial position worse.

    If costs are unimportant then why not hire more teachers? That would create jobs. Why not hire more doctors and nurses? More ESL teachers? Build more hospitals to reduce wait times?

    I bet the return on investment would be better than on the projects that have put us between 60 and 160 billion in debt.

    Building stadiums and holding Olympics hasn’t saved the Russian economy. Why would you think that strategy would work in BC?

    Mega projects don’t sustain economies. To sustain economies you can’t rely on endless government projects. It didn’t work in the Soviet Union and it hasn’t worked in BC either.

    I don’t know how to get this across to you guys, but to sustain economies you have to invest in people (education, training, healthcare, etc) and let them create wealth.

    You can’t simply pretend you have an endless supply of money trees and keep building one grandiose project after another to stay popular.

    At some point all that debt has to be paid, the payments against the direct debt and especially the indirect debt already consume more of our annual budget than our entire education system and I wouldn’t be surprised if it soon is more than our healthcare system.

    And the answer is to build yet another 10 billion dollar project, no doubt to be called “the Clark Dam”?

    Infrastructure is important, no doubt about it, some debt is necessary. I actually supported the dam when it was proposed a decade ago as an alternative to the IPPs. But we already have the IPPs and can’t even sell their power at a price where we can break even. And we’re locked into those contracts for at least a couple more decades.

    Spending money like a drunken sailor on stadiums and convention centres while preaching restraint when it comes to education, health and training makes absolutely no sense and is equivalent to building marble statues for the front yard when you can’t afford rent.

    Who knows, maybe Russia’s economy (which BC seems to be trying to emulate) will be doing great next year and I’ll have to eat some crow. But I doubt it.

  59. Noneck says:

    I would recommend that Gini (Poster #51) quickly write a proposal for a joint geothermal/solar/wind energy project in the tune of $5 billion (one half the cost of Site C) and email it to John Horgan promptly. Then he can have a choice softball session on Global News with Squire and hit one to the fences. Seriously, if the NDP sit back and allow CC to inflate the Site C Dam budget $1 billion a week until the damn (ha!) thing is built, then we might as well drink the Koolaid and enjoy the fantasy ride to a debt-ridden future.

  60. Gini says:

    @Noneck:
    I realize that you’re just being sarcastic, but it’s not such a bad idea. The only trouble is, anyone in the position of Official Opposition Leader should be well versed in the viability of alternative renewable energy, but I’ve heard nothing concrete about that topic from John Horgan.

    I think the NDP would have been better off with David Eby as leader. In fact, I may just send him an e-mail, suggesting that he contact Canadian Geothermal Energy Association for more information on what I’ve written about here.

  61. Noneck says:

    I wasn’t being sarcastic. Far from it if truth be told. I’ve love it if the official opposition offered any counter proposal to Site C. And cutting edge alternative energy sources? That’s gravy!

    This strategy must be proposed and supported. If I knew more about this topic, I’d investigate it myself. It is the way of the future, and instead of always following the trends (LNG anyone?), we should be setting them.

  62. EllBee says:

    (Response: Great points..BUT people in BC have shown they don’t vote based on revelations of past failures or even scandals … but on promises of GREAT THINGS to come, even if they haven’t in the past. Boggles the mind…but that’s the truth. h.o)

    Really? The media, of which you are a part of has made Liberal hay from Bingo gate, a $2000 deck and fast ferries for over a decade. Compared to this bunch, the fast ferries were a bargain. At least it was partially done with the aim of building jobs in BC. Your peers aka Palmer, Smyth etc haven’t the guts to go after the Libs the way they did and continue to do re the NDP. I’m amazed any of the MSM in BC can walk upright anymore with the lack of a spine.

  63. 13 says:

    Harvey you msm sell out. Youve pissed off EllBee.
    Ill bet that you and Palmer and Smyth spend your days off building a sun deck for Christy .

    Its the medias fault that the NDP cant win an election. What a load of horse manure. The NDP dont win elections because they dont have a platform. They dont support anything but oppose everything.

    2015 Brand New Year , same old NDP whiners.

    Happy New Years to all.

    (Response: Funny…I NEVER got the idea from Campbell OR Clark that they actually APPRECIATED my grinding questioning, disgust at Campbell’s handling of HST, refusal to call her Premier for her entire first term and, oh yes, all my blogs about the BC Rail. Perhaps I was wrong… and they actually saw me as being “on side”??? And to think, since Campbell never called or sent a note or ever acknowledged my retirement after 38 years in the news business …including knowing/covering HIM since he was the mere assistant to Mayor Phillips … I thought his silence was a deliberate slight ….he DIDN’T appreciate me!! But EllBee makes me see how wrong I apparently was … that I WAS part of the pro-Liberal machine, after all!!! Maybe she should write Gordo in London to explain all that …and ask if I can stay at his digs when I’m there in the Spring. Happy New Year! 🙂 h.o

  64. EllBee says:

    The simple fact that they get re elected only proves my point. Thou doth protest too much. I wasn’t being sarcastic in my comments as your and your supporter’s comments are and do show that it is the lowest form of wit.

    Harvey, I said peers and meant and stand by it as members of the fourth estate. If you take that to mean that you were part of the Liberal machine (your words) then you got it wrong or it was just a Freudian slip.

    You simply cannot deny that the level of regurgitating of past scandals etc is not equal or balanced. Your schoolyard attacking of me as a commenter to your post puts you in the company of the self described greats of BC like Tsakumis- minus the profanity.

    (Response: Losers …from every side …quite often blame the media. The truth though is it is almost always the losing party that was responsible for its own defeat…losing campaign, losing policies, losing candidates, losing leader. Yes, some of the msm media and reporters are biased, but I find it quite arrogant of you that you believe YOU can see through that but quite apparently believe most of the rest of British Columbians can’t. In the last election, almost EVERY media was in fact talking about an NDP WIN, how the Libs could NOT win with all their scandals, how tired and worn they were, how even Libs were predicting defeat …so if this was all part of a PRO-LIBERAL bias, it was the most unusual I’ve ever seen! What? To cause a sympathetic backlash? Let’s keep it real: the NDP LOST the election because of the LOUSY campaign they ran and the critical mistakes of Dix.h.o)

  65. BMCQ says:

    EllBee

    Once again!!!

    Many B.C. Voters myself included do not see The B.C. Libs as the perfect answer to their needs. They quite simply look at the alternative of the possibility of a Weak-Kneed ALMOST Anti-Job Premier Adrian Dix along with potential NDP Cabinet Ministers like Jenny Kwan. Most voters smelled the potential of that disaster and then held their nose and voted Liberal.

    Voters desired the opportunity to see the Province create Jobs and Wealth for all the citizens of B.C.!!

    Without a Healthy Wealth Creating Economy, Health Care, Education, and many other Government Programs that people desire cannot be funded!! You cannot just increase Taxes, we have seen in many other jurisdictions that just does not work!!

    In fact MSM if anything has been much more hostile to Federal Conservatives and Provincial Liberals than to The NDP. Fact is as H.O. correctly pointed out The NDP created their own problems!!! You may not care to admit or see that but then that is your problem!!

    Polls

    Once again, The B.C. Liberals were never behind 20%. Again the fact is our current accepted method of Polling is FLAWED!!!! Pollsters do Polling on line and the people that Poll on line are not real Voters and those that really do Vote do not take part in On-Line Polling!!!

    See all of the polling past Elections.

    B.C., Alta., Quebec, Canadian Federal!!!!

    If the NDP cannot convince “Hard Hat” Union Construction Workers to vote for them they are already standing up to their Neck in Sewage before the Writ is dropped!!!

  66. EllBee says:

    HO- I don’t think I’ve blamed the media outright for the NDPs loss in the last election. I would agree that it was a lousy campaign. What I am complaining about is not bias. What I complained about re your article was your characterization of BC voters as being forgiving re scandal. I could buy that argument if the level of reporting from your peers aka Smyth, Palmer and the thankfully departed Bill Good re any # of issues, you can pick half a dozen, had reached the volume level that Bingo gate, Clarks deck and fast ferries did, and somehow still manages to get squeaked in whenever there’s a chance. You say the Lib scandals were mentioned. That’s true- mentioned. No in depth analysis for except maybe BC Rail and that was drawn out until the public forgot and the courts gave up. It’s the purported balance that some reporters will trot out as a reason. That’s hogwash. I believe that the current batch of Ledge reporters will never do a full court press on the Libs for fear that they will not get the dribs and drabs and free lunches that they are fed from the Government side. The sad spectacle of Keith Baldrey pretending to be a reporter and then taking paid gigs is disgraceful The guy hasn’t broken a story in his life. It’s this kind of reporting that I complain about. It’s admirable that you defend those in the reporter’s union, but the reaction that it’s convenient to blame the media when one loses is really tiring. Reporters say they only report the facts. Reporting only some is the problem.

  67. Laura says:

    BCMQ, none of the stuff you claim the Liberals have done, happened. I can only assume you prefer the myth over the facts?

    The Liberals did not create a healthy, wealth-creating economy. The economy has sputtered along for a decade at a rate of growth half that of the 1990s.

    They did not maintain levels of service in healthcare or education. Ask anyone who has needed medical care or whose kid attends school.

    They in fact increased the overall tax burden. Look at MSP, hydro bills, bridge tolls etc.

    They doubled the direct debt and increased the indirect debt by five times what the direct debt was when they took over.

    They increased the number of “scandals”. Incompetent people are allowed to keep their jobs because they are Liberal supporters.

    Which might help explain why the economy, education, healthcare and regulatory oversight have become a shadow of what they once were.

    We do agree that the NDP were never ahead by 20%, that was one poll by a second-tier pollster that put out that number. Ever since then the media have declared “the NDP blew a 20 point lead”. That fits the media’s narrative surrounding the last campaign but it bears no relation to reality.

    The NDP lead averaged 5 to 7% but that included a lot of people in the younger demographic who for one reason or another never show up on election day.

    The NDP campaign failed to inspire, that was it. It wasn’t a bad campaign or a good one. Again, the numbers don’t lie but I realize people prefer the myth of the Earth Day announcement and Christy as the “comeback kid”.

    C’est la vie.

  68. Laura says:

    13, what it all boils down to is you’re a big proponent of “tax and spend” and increasing debt.

    You can claim its all about being “for” and not “opposing everything” but that’s just rhetoric. Its nothing more than polishing a turd.

  69. Laura says:

    As for winning elections being a vindication of bad policies… tell that to the people that elected governments in Russia, Greece, Ireland and Portugal. They all won lots of elections too against parties that “opposed everything” (meaning they opposed bad policies).

    Doesn’t vindicate the policies they put in place that drove those countries into their present states.

    Fact is the NDP doesn’t “oppose everything”, only a brainless half-wit would actually believe that to be true. What they oppose are the Liberal policies that have ruined the BC economy and finances. Big difference.

    Even if the Liberals win the next 50 elections (god help us) it won’t change basic economic facts or the judgement of history. All it means is that BC voters have no one but themselves to blame.

  70. 13 says:

    @ellbee
    Could you give a few examples of reporters that you think would do a better ( your idea not mine) job of reporting than those you have mentioned. HO, Palmer, Baldrey, Smyth ( cant believe you think hes pro lib and anti ndp). Unless I misunderstood you even AGT is anti NDP and pro liberal?
    I look forward to some names that you consider capable fair reporters. Personaly I think your just a sour grapes NDPer but I would gladly explore your idea of reporters with spines.

  71. Noneck says:

    To support EllBee’s claims re: reporters’ biases, I suggest that readers of this blog scan the comments of the following post from Norm Farrell:
    http://northerninsights.blogspot.ca/2015/01/when-call-screener-makes-life-difficult.html#comment-form

    As you will see, there are quite a number of reporters that cover the BC Leg who have conflicts of interest. As Lew points out in his second comment, why bite the hand that feeds?

  72. 13 says:

    I suppose that if the NDP (truly a fantasy) had been in power throughout the last 20 plus years no fees or taxes would have gone up. Education and healthcare would be better funded. All of this would have happened without any major infrastucture improvements. The global recession would not have occured.
    Scanadals would have been nil as the portland society and ms Kwan would have not needed to use a charity to cloak their holiday and dining expenses.
    Every claim that you make is unfounded guess work. To claim how much better it would have been if things were different is a half witted argument.
    The only thing that we can be sure is that for the past 14 or so years the majority of people in BC that exercise their democratic right to vote dont agree with Laura that the NDP should govern.

  73. BMCQ says:

    Laura,

    Actually I said that the desired programs cannot be funded with out a Healthy Economy, one cannot just keep Taxing, Healthy Economies work better.

    Did not say Libs were perfect. Just mentioned that most of us look at the alternative and we did not like that horribly “Bad Smell” of potential Cabinet Members coming out from under The Dix Platform!!

    Because I am a very simple man I will attempt to make this point appear very simple.

    A wise man once said on a scale of one to ten, ten being the best a FOUR in a Sea of TWO looks pretty good. The Libs were a Five in a Sea of TWO’s in the last election!!

    I also mentioned that there was a lot of things I did not like about The Libs. but much better than The NDP. Interesting enough there seemed to be many other Citizens of B.C. that felt the same way!! Of course you would most likely believe that their right to vote be takena way!!

    Health Care and other programs are important but don’t you think that the folks that actually Pay the Taxes deserve some recreational opportunities for all of their hard work? Or should they just work and pay Taxes for no opportunities of pleasure and enjoyment?

    What about the employment created for the workers that build the projects? Truck Drivers, people that work in Hotels, Restaurants, Transportation workers? Are you also against The Canada Line, Sea to Sky, Evergreen, an many more projects?

    FYI hundreds of Millions of Dollars has gone into Healthcare Education, and other Ministries over the past ten or fifteen years!!

    I honestly think the BIGGEST and most costly problem with Government Ministries is not funding but the problem is WASTE!!! AS I HAVE STATED IN OTHER POSTS WE REQUIIRE EFFICIENCIES!!

    As I have also stated earlier you will soon see The Harpers address “Bloated” Government Employee Wage and Benefit Packages during the upcoming Federal Campaign, along with more “Law and Order” Bills.

    Keep an eye open for that Laura and watch the Conservatives win and increase their majority in Canadian Parliament on those very things!!!

    Oh, and by the way please do not forget to let me know how you feel then!!

  74. Laura says:

    BMCQ, everybody pays taxes. Even someone living off turning in bottles pays sales taxes.

    As for your view that your “recreation” should be paid for by the general public, that is silly. The guy living off bottle returns isn’t being given any recreation by the government so why should he have to help pay for yours?

    “What about the employment created for the workers that build the projects? ”

    Those are government jobs. No different than paying teachers, doctors, nurses etc. Don’t pretend they’re any different, they’re not.

    If you want the government to hire everybody and pay them good wages, fine, but someone has to pay for it and you’re not doing that.

    “FYI hundreds of Millions of Dollars has gone into Healthcare Education, and other Ministries over the past ten or fifteen years!!”

    You’re kidding right? Out of a budget close to 50 billion dollars, I certainly hope so.

    You want to believe in a fairy tale whereby government can hire everybody and never have to pay a bill.

    You need to educate yourself as to the size of government, where the spending is and how an economy works. Then get back to me with real numbers and real arguments.

  75. Laura says:

    13,

    “The only thing that we can be sure is that for the past 14 or so years the majority of people in BC that exercise their democratic right to vote dont agree with Laura that the NDP should govern.”

    And the result is massive poverty, inequality, deteriorating services, anemic economic growth and staggering levels of debt.

    I win. Try and do better next time.

  76. BMCQ says:

    Laura

    YIKES!!!!

    Perhaps Mr. Horgan will appoint you Minister of Finance for his new newly elected Government in 2017!!!

  77. Laura says:

    Thank you BMCQ, good to know you finally agree with me. And yes, I think I would certainly be a step up from the incompetents that have been driving BC off a cliff for the last decade.

  78. R says:

    Since 1992 ,3 billion borrowed by bc hydro and transferred into general revenue is how you balance in Bc .?all under bc liberals fiberals.?
    Last year sold off assets to balance budget .?
    Does bc ferry do the same.any other way not known.?
    .?
    Misdirection borrowing fiasco.?
    NDP hello.?

    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Hydro+paid+most+dividends+using+borrowed+cash/10723965/story.html#__federated=1

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