The BIG Fear: Covid Will Feast on December Festivals … Choking Health Systems and Killing Thousands

The numbers are rising, and so are the fears among politicians and health officials in BC, across Canada and the world about the potential tragedies coming our way in December.

The Festive Season is fast approaching …. starting with the Indian Festival of Diwali that starts next Saturday, goes on for five days: a joyous occasion marked with LOTS of family, friends and feasting … celebrating together.

Just what a Covid-plagued society needs, a major festival, when daily numbers are several times what they were pre-Thanksgiving!

And let’s keep it real: last weekend’s new Covid infections in BC were, by far, worst in the Fraser Health Region, where Diwali will be widely celebrated: 737 of the 998 recorded were in Fraser Health alone.

(Fraser Health serves 1.8 million population in 13 communities, including Surrey, Delta, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, Burnaby, New Westminster.)

Covid is spreading there far too fast.

But Vancouver Coastal Health Region actually did not fare too badly last weekend: 210 total new cases over Saturday and Sunday.

(Vancouver Coastal serves 1.25 million residents in Vancouver, Richmond, North Shore, Sea to Sky country, Garibaldi, Sunshine Coast, Powell River, Bella Bella and Bella Coola.)

That’s 210 new cases over TWO days in an area with a population of 1.25 million!

Do these numbers justify a Public Health Order imposing such extensive new restrictions ???

I’d say YES in Fraser Health; NO in Vancouver Coastal!

The media/public should not have so easily bought the “spin” that both areas were targeted because people travel so often between the two. That’s a total red herring! Using that logic raises an obvious question: why then weren’t the Covid figures much closer in the two?

Fraser Health’s 737 new infections were WAY ABOVE Vancouver Coastal’s 210 … a disparity far too large to tar the two areas with the same brush … or the same crackdown.

In fact, Global TV noted Tuesday that, of the total 5,133 Covid cases recorded in BC so far, 68% have been in Fraser Health; only 27% in Vancouver Coastal.

Clearly, it’s activities and compliance levels in Fraser Health that should properly be targeted!

Vancouver was included, I’d say, for political reasons: authorities didn’t want to appear to be singling out/targeting just one region, Fraser Health, just before Diwali.

And that’s what’s wrong with the current B.C. fight against Covid.

To control and ultimately beat Covid, without punishing everyone or destroying the vast majority’s lives, their jobs, their businesses and the entire Lower Mainland (or BC) economy, we need proper targeting of specific areas, specific activities, specific businesses, specific facilities, specific violators who/where Covid is spreading.

Not the imposition of penalties and punishments on one region or several for poor compliance or outright defiance in another!

Remember, Diwali will be just the beginning.

The Buddhist Holiday Bodhi is on Dec 8; Hanukkah starts Dec. 11 ; Ismaili Muslims mark Salgirah Dec. 13; there’s Wiccan’s Winter Solstice Dec. 21; Christmas Dec. 25, Orthodox Christmas Jan. 7; Kwanzaa Dec. 26; and, New Year’s Eve Dec 31.

And then barely enough time to recover before Chinese New Year Feb 12 .

ALL of these Festivals normally involve days, even weeks of feasting, partying, celebration, large gatherings and lots of fun …. right around the world.

Perfect for the spread of Covid!

We all know one of the cruelest aspects of Covid is that those who get it can EACH carry it, pass it on to dozens, even several dozen others for two weeks or more, before noticing or showing any symptoms.

Just think of what even “modified” family and friend and business associates gatherings and get togethers could soon bring our way.

In BC, across Canada and right around the world millions of people will be offering up new victims to Covid … under the names of their favorite Festivals.

That’s what I believe the latest two-week Public Health crackdown in the Fraser Health and Coastal Health Regions is really about: trying to put a lid on the coming Diwali celebrations … without saying so!

Because as the Diwali celebrations go … so will all those other upcoming festivities.

Everything else in that confusing and over-reaching Public Health Order last weekend I view as flack and fluff to cover up the real target of BC’s health officials and the government’s latest Covid fears…. the widespread ignoring of Covid rules in Fraser Health.

Notice the Order expires just days after Diwali celebrations and get togethers end.

Then, the government will wait and see.

And if the Covid numbers go UP again, in the week or two after Diwali, those who celebrate December Festivals will pay the price … with another Order imposing harsh measures … or at least trying to … for Hanukkah and Christmas and New Year’s.

Even if they won’t tell us the Order and the government will will specifically be targeting our festive celebrations.

Harv Oberfeld

(Lest we forget! Today is Remembrance Day. And for me, a retired political/investigative reporter , blogger and also for all those who comment/disagree/dispute on here, it’s a very special day … a day to say Thank You to the many who have served our country and have given up so much, including their lives, their health, their peaceful nights even now so that we CAN do what we do, without fear, favour or retribution. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! )

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38 Responses to The BIG Fear: Covid Will Feast on December Festivals … Choking Health Systems and Killing Thousands

  1. D. M. Johnston says:

    I am in total agreement.

    Covid-19 is a nasty disease, with long term effects still being a mystery, except for the fact, that there are long term effects.

    I know several people who are in hospital (I live in the Fraser health Region), with both in ICU; two people I know have passed from covid-19 and I treat this disease with the respect it deserves.

    After your previous blog, which I rankled several feathers, I think it is time for Fraser Health and the province to spell out exactly where the locations and numbers of those with Covid, such as North Delta 25; Whalley, 25; and so on. They are not doing so and it makes me very suspicious.

    What are they afraid of?

    As for our Christmas plans, there are not any; no Christmas parties; no Christmas visits; and I am considering not even buying a tree this year and gifts will be at a minimum.

    While Horgan and his mob, play the politically correct card, they should spell it out loud and clear, the festive season will be much less festive and for the new year, somber reflection that 2021, is going to be a lot worse than 2020.

    As it is November 11, we should also reflect that when serious threats abounded, Canadians accepted the challenge, both in the armed forces and at home. Covid-19 is a serious challenge and it seems Canadians are not willing to accept so much challenge this time around.

    Be healthy and be safe!

    (Response: You’d make a great journalist! I was thinking as I wrote my last and this current piece, why don’t Public Health and government officials crack down in areas where they already know EXACTLY WHERE all the cases are happening in Fraser Health? Yes, the Fraser Health numbers are horrible but there are 13 communities in the region: why target them all? Or Vancouver Coastal??? Of course, the media know health authorities have/publish maps showing us the real areas that are the worst problem. They should crack down THERE …not the entire Lower Mainland. We do it with crime stats: Covid is worse!! Enforcement should be pin-pointed in those communities, instead of targeting millions of people and destroying jobs and businesses in the entire Lower Mainland and beyond, including areas where Covid fight is actually going much better. h.o)

  2. DBW says:

    HEADLINE: Bonnie Henry is trying her best to save December Festivals.

    By the way, Toronto made similar restrictions over the weekend. They will last for 28 days, not 14 They admit that it will be almost impossible to enforce the house socializing restriction but it is there as a warning/wake-up call. I am sure Bonnie Henry realizes the same but just didn’t undermine the rule by saying so.

    Maybe you are right. Maybe my language skills are deficient because I have no idea what you are aiming for with these two posts.

    (Response: Again, nothing wrong with crackdowns, shutdowns, closures WHERE and WHEN warranted. But only sheep would not question a government crackdown affecting so many people, businesses and jobs in ALL 13 cities (1.8 million people) in Fraser Health and ALL 12 cities (1.25 million people) for weeks affecting families, jobs, businesses … if the culprits are massively located in just one, two or three areas…. not the entire West Coast right to Hope and beyond!!! They HAVE maps that show where the HUGE numbers are located … crack down there … and free the rest of us AND BUSINESSES who are largely complying, to go about our normal routines, or at least as close as we can safely. h.o)

  3. DBW says:

    Sorry Harvey, I didn’t see DMJ’s comment and your response before posting.

    You want to make the restrictions specific to communities as opposed to districts.

    Do you want to single out individual neighbourhoods?
    Individual houses?

    Do you want to find out if a specific group of people are the cause of the spread? so we can restrict white or brown kids (whichever is causing the most problems) from the dance studio not just everybody. Segregated spin classes?

    I am so confused.

    (Response: That is so silly: I expected better of you. Are you just trolling? Health authorities all over the globe have been able for more than 50 years to target specific villages, towns, cities, regions … even in impoverished countries … where cholera, typhoid, malaria, smallpox and yes, even Covid run much higher than other areas nearby. Clearly I have a higher opinion of the abilities of BC Health authorities than you do. They already have the maps: enforce them where they must! h.o)

  4. NVG says:

    Dear Harvey,

    H.O. “(Fraser Health serves 1.8 million population in 13 communities, including Surrey, Delta, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, New Westminster.)”

    You left out Burnaby.

    The dividing line between the two health regions is BOUNDARY ROAD. Three blocks to the east of Boundary Road is Burnaby General Hospital.

    Take a look at this map of the two side by side health districts and try and explain to your readers just how you can block the virus from being transmitted.

    https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/data/geographic/land-use/administrative-boundaries/health-boundaries/2_fraser_health_authority.pdf

    More to the point, your suggestion to D.M.J. : ‘show us on a map with pins EXACTLY WHERE all the cases are happening’

    What if the pins are all around you Harvey (like mustard gas)? Where are you going to run to? Make a map, put pins on long term health buildings, hospitals, Stanley Park and then assume they are all festering pots of death.

    Go ahead Harvey, take care of yourself, create panic.

    (Response: Thanks, I have added Burnaby to the list of 13 cities. As for maps, they DO have them … and they do show the worst areas where Covid is hitting hardest are OVERWHELMINGLY in Fraser Health south … Surrey, Langley etc. That’s where the crackdown/efforts should be concentrated. And we could/should all support that … if that’s where people are holding large home parties, ignoring restaurant protocols etc. It’s very easy for armchair socialists to sit at home and say disrupt families and people’s jobs and businesses all the way from Vancouver to Hope: Will you pay their rents? Their mortgage? Their car payment? Their Hydro? Their other bills? Buy their families groceries? How many businesses have already closed? Collective punishment is unfair. Shut down the violators … fine them heavily but don’t punish those who ARE following the protocols, who ARE distancing, and who ARE just trying to make a living. h.o)

  5. Art Smith says:

    Hi Harvey, I have not commented on this subject at all, living on the Island, we have not felt the effects of the shut-downs to the extent of the larger cities and more densely populated areas, but there are some very worrisome problems that will be arising in the not too distant future. When so many businesses and jobs are shut down and people are struggling to get by, there will be a reckoning. One of the biggest will be the resentment of those kept from earning a living towards those who are giving the orders, but who have no worries, as they still get a pay check whether working or not. We are all in this together, but only those in the private sector get to pay the price.
    This is just my convoluted way of saying, some of the shut-downs may be warranted, but it seems to be a very haphazard, and not very well thought out. I agree with those who say, let us know where the problems are and we will act accordingly. We are not children, even if some of us act this way.

    (Response: That’s part of my concerns as well: so many people are struggling to find/keep jobs, small business owners trying to just stay open and prevent losing their whole life’s savings, even large firms closing down many locations permanently … governments have to do a better job of targeting/fighting the Covid spread where it needs to be fought.
    Imposing crippling rules on businesses, workers and families from Vancouver all the way to Hope when 68% to 73% of Covid spread and those apparently ignoring Covid rules are in one part of one region is, in my view, excessive and unfair. Decisions are being made that are hurting many innocent people; and are being made by politicians and bureaucrats who continue to draw full paychecks and reported, without any serious challenges, by media mouthpieces also drawing full paycheques! All I’m trying to do is speak up for those wearing masks, self-distancing, washing their hands, keeping their bubbles small, operating their businesses carefully … yet suffering, being shut down … paying far too heavy a price in areas well beyond what is required… because proper enforcement/targeting is not being done. h.o)

  6. DBW says:

    Sorry, Harvey, for not reaching the standards you expect of me.

    No I am not trolling. I am asking questions which noticeably you wrote off as silly and didn’t answer. What would someone like famed journalist Harvey Oberfeld have said if that had happened to him .

    I think from the discussion of the past few days it is clear that I have more faith in BC Health authorities than you do.

    You want individual communities to be targeted instead of entire health authorities. Fair enough. Maybe our whole health system should be decentralized. Good debate.

    The current restrictions are not province wide. And in fact a couple of isolated communities in Fraser Health are exempt, So the restrictions are specific.

    When we drove to visit Grandma and Grandpa in Vancouver, our kids were amazed that we could be in Vancouver and then just across the street we could be in Burnaby. If Burnaby is the problem community and we close all the gyms there, what is stopping people from crossing the street. If Vancouver is the problem would you like the dividing line to be Main Street if the pins indicated? How specific are you prepared to go?

    You want violators to be heavily fined. But the only way we can have heavy fines is for rules to be in place. And it is really difficult to pinpoint rules that only affect the violators. Even if we say just Surrey, the vast majority of the people in Surrey are likely complying. Why penalize them

    You are also implying that withholding the information has some kind of politically correct narrative. If it turns out that a particular ethnic group is the bulk of the problem do we want them to be singled out for restrictions?

    Honestly, Harvey, I get what you are trying to say. We are covid exhausted. Most of us are trying our best and we are pissed at those who aren’t. It is unfair that some are being penalized for the irresponsible actions of others.

    We all want people to behave responsibly. But I am also conflicted as to how we get people to do that. Dr. Henry is trying to take a measured approach. It’s two weeks. It is region specific. It is workplace specific.

    I don’t think some of these decisions are as easy as some are making them out to be.

    (Response: I certainly understand and agree Covid must be fought and stopped … especially where people are widely ignoring the recommendations and rules designed to do so. But that’s my point, the numbers show 68% of the overall Covid infections are in one region (73% last weekend!); apparently repeatedly and consistently in the southern part of that region, despite all the efforts to educate, convince and apply the rules. So go after those yahoos … report and raid their parties, their large family gatherings, celebrations and shut down the restaurants, bars, gyms that cater to them. But don’t punish EVERYONE else, from Vancouver to Hope who are complying, self-distancing and keeping their bubbles small: too many innocent people, families, restaurants, workers and business owners are suffering … socially, financially and even emotionally, for no valid reason, other than the government is not targeting the real source(s) of the high numbers. h.o)

  7. Terry Montgomery says:

    I wonder if we still had smaller health/hospital boards as were the norm prior to Campbell’s creation of health authorities if what we are going through now would have been handled more efficiently. It seems to me that sometimes the left hand doesn’t know what the right is trying to accomplish .Sometimes too many finger in the pie stir up a mess.

    (Response: Not sure about that. Officials in the larger health zones have been to zero in quite precisely where the cases are and I believe the contact tracing has also been fairly efficient. If only health officials and the politicians would use the information they have gathered to go after the real culprits … even if that means being very blunt in calling out the sources of the problem … instead of imposing such wide punishment on millions of innocents, properly following the protocols. h.o)

  8. Richard Skelly says:

    I’m not sure who coined the phrase: ‘political correctness will be the death of us.’ But that adage sure comes to mind reading your statistically well-researched post.

    I, too, give profound thanks to veterans—including my late parents—who served.

    (Response: We should all remember, not just today but every day, that the discussions/debates/disagreements/dialogue we enjoy on here have come at great cost … paid for by ALL those who have served. h.o.)

  9. DBW says:

    At the risk of boring everybody else, can I continue to explore your idea now that you are not quite as combative as you were. I honestly think you risk credibility when you use hyperbolic (Big Sister etc) language. But I digress.

    How wide sweeping are the current orders?

    1. Socializing outside your household members is prohibited. There are exceptions so the vulnerable are not unduly affected.
    The problem with this is the difficulty of enforcement. And I am not even sure if it should be enforced except in the most egregious cases. As far as I am concerned it is there to warn people to smarten up. If people rein in their activities just because they know it is the right thing to do, that may be enough.

    2. Gyms and such remain open but group activities are prohibited. People can still go to the gym maybe meet a friend there as long as they maintain protocols. Contact tracing suggests that group activities like spin classes spread the virus.

    3. Group activities at dance studios appear to spread the virus.

    4, Sport activities appear to spread the virus.

    5. Travel between communities should be for essential reasons only.

    6. Restaurants, movie theatres, churches, schools, all other businesses remain open as long as they continue to follow protocols.

    7. It is specific to the two largest most congested health regions.

    There is inconvenience for sure and some businesses (dance studios more than any other) are hurt for the two weeks but it is not a total lockdown.

    But I get your drift that we should be focusing on the real areas of concern. There is no question that should be done. But here is the difficulty.

    I live in Prince Rupert. If Prince Rupert were the bulk of the cases in Northern Health, and they followed your suggestion and just targeted Prince Rupert, it would be pretty hard for me to circumvent the rules. I am not going to drive 150km to take in a Terrace spin class or put my kid in a dance class.

    But if I live in Surrey and they target just Surrey then it is much easier to circumvent it, perhaps spreading covid into neigbouring communities that are not as badly off. A Chilliwack dance studio had an outbreak. Should only Chilliwack dance studios be closed or should all regional dance studios be closed given the evidence of spread.

    Your suggestions is worth exploring. But as I said before I don’t think anything is all that easy to decide.

    (Response: Read my last reply to you … and my response to Hawgwash ….says it all. Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for tickets to be handed out to those politicians and community “leaders” shown on TV apparently openly violating Health Orders … and maybe even a month-long shutdown of the restaurant where it took place. Instead of punishing EVERYONE …who were not there! h.o)

  10. hawgwash says:

    Howling at the moon.

    Because I used my annual rant quota on your BIG SISTER BONNIE bash, I wasn’t going to post here. Besides, the past predicts the future, so you will not hear me or more likely, would just spin it.

    Then I read your reply to NVG in the number four position:
    QUOTE:
    It’s very easy for armchair socialists to sit at home and say disrupt families and people’s jobs and businesses all the way from Vancouver to Hope: Will you pay their rents? Their mortgage? Their car payment? Their Hydro? Their other bills? Buy their families groceries? How many businesses have already closed?
    UNQUOTE.

    So, you would rather see of this?
    1 positive wedding guest = 15 positives, 37 work or school no go.
    1 positive employee = 48 positives, 111 work or school no go.
    1 positive fit freak = 67 positives, 180 work or school no go.

    JUST ONE:
    https://globalnews.ca/news/7457383/bc-covid-19-superspreader-map-posters/

    Speaking of NVG, I suggest folks go back and read his last comment in your previous slog.
    http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/big-sister-bonnies-total-ban-on-home-visits-goes-too-far/

    Therein lies the answer to my question: where is the HO who for years has preached AND practiced, respect? Always believed in addressing people with titles by those titles? Scolded AND edited out name calling?

    Replies to that blog were triple the norm, most disagreeing with you and this one is now back to the usual 8-10; far fewer than years past.

    Yes indeed, why are you so angry?

    (Response: I’m not angry: I’m actually quite happy; although, like almost everyone else I’m afraid of getting Covid. So I understand and support Health Officials doing whatever is NEEDED to target and stop the spread. But I don’t believe that’s what’s happening: I believe politics and political correctness is HURTING the fight and making two million people SUFFER from Vancouver all the way to Hope for what is happening largely in ONE area …the southern part of Fraser Health. Unlike many commenting on here …or asking questions at government Press Conferences … I REALLY understand and CARE how difficult Orders on pieces of paper impact people, families, friends, workers, small businesses … some of whom can’t pay their rents, buy groceries for their families or are in danger of losing their jobs with every closure, lose their life savings, their investments and their businesses … even though THEY are not the yahoos going out weekends and partying or inviting large groups into their homes for “family” dinners or celebrations. Health officials should go after the GUILTY ..lay charges, close establishments that cater to them … not make ALL OF US suffer because Public Health and politicians are too afraid/weak to crack down where the real problem is. h.o)

  11. hawgwash says:

    Addendum:
    No, DBW and I are not a tag team. We just happen to both be small town coastal folks with logic, a desire for accuracy and a will to not be led by social media.
    At least this time.

  12. DBW says:

    Sorry to be a hog Harvey but listening to the news last night and a lengthy podcast this morning, what looks to be the way forward is what they are calling circuit breaker lockdowns.

    They are short, sometimes targeted.
    They are not meant to get covid down to zero but to allow the hospitals and contact tracers an opportunity to catch up.
    An Alberta doctor was saying there is a need for this.
    Kenney said that he did not want a full economic lockdown which would be devastating.
    A person from Vancouver Health explained our mini-circuit breaker. “We are targeting the areas of concern.” The Lower Mainland which has the most cases and spin classes and social gatherings.
    We are going to have to learn to live with covid. It isn’t going to go away so she hopes this circuit breaker can keep the health system going.
    An epidemiologist countered that argument by saying it is just a bandaid. We are compromising between doing nothing and doing what needs to be done which is a full blown lockdown.

    You may not like the exact terms of Dr. Henry’s current orders but they really aren’t excessive. So that’s where we are and where we may be heading. They are doing the best they can. Most of us are doing the best we can. Some have to step up.

    (Response: Two week shutdown? I expect they’re not telling us the real plan. I believe the public is being fed only part of the story … and another shutdown will drop soon or a week or so after the current one ends. I get it: if it is needed, then do it WHERE it is needed …lay charges against people who are violating it (even if they are politicians and community leaders!!); shut down the restaurants where people and thousands of businesses are allowed to sit in large groups, wander around or pose in large groupings for photos!!! But don’t punish more than a million people, families and groups of friends all the way from Vancouver to Hope who ARE following the rules. Too bad the media have become the government’s messengers now … failing to ask tough questions or report the full terrible impact the shutdown is having on so many people jobs, businesses for something happening largely in Fraser south. h.o)

  13. hawgwash says:

    Reply to DBW;
    “Too bad the media have become the government’s messengers now … failing to ask tough questions or report the full terrible impact the shutdown is having on so many people jobs, businesses for something happening largely in Fraser south.”

    Where are your facts to support all the massive losses to jobs and businesses just 5 days into these restrictions?

    (Response: Actually, you are helping me make my point about the BC media: I’ve seen/heard a couple of mentions/interviews with some business owners complaining (gyms, spin centers) but nothing close to what the “working” media should be asking/showing. Just visit/ask local restaurants… we were at one Tuesday for lunch …almost empty. And I personally know two people who were working in Vancouver … even then, only part time until this week …and now NIL! It’s very clear, cause-and-effect. Unless you live in a fantasy world … you can’t ORDER/RESTRICT/BAN activities and get togethers … and then even suggest no one’s jobs, businesses are affected!!!! Ridiculous! Look at this from Toronto: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/new-closures-will-be-fatal-for-thousands-of-small-businesses-advocate-warns-1.5184987. Then this from the Financial Post: https://financialpost.com/executive/executive-summary/posthaste-posthaste-nov-12-nearly-half-of-working-canadians-say-they-need-help-and-its-hurting-our-productivity?r. It’s VERY clear people are suffering here ..even if it is not (for some reason) being adequately reported. h.o)

  14. HARRY LAWSON says:

    Harvey

    you raised some valid points ,and so do many posters .

    the real elephant in the room is the flu season , the symptoms are so similar;

    the flu will compromise the immune system and share similarities with covid ,thus in the error of caution more people will be sent home and more denied services.

    i have to ask at what cost to society ?

    i spent most of my day in emerg due to acute hypertension , to much stress lol

    how will we treat people with a common cold going forward?

    (Response: Interesting point. I was actually scheduled to have dinner with someone in my own small bubble Wednesday, but we canceled because he had “cold” symptoms. These days, you never know … and the flu season isn’t even here yet! h.o)

  15. e.a.f. says:

    political correctness. in my opinion the politicians may not be that concerned about that but rather what could happen if some people started to think COVID spread was being done by one ethnic group or another. The news, either this week or last reported two women being attacked. they were of Asian descent. We all saw the man assault an elderly Asian man at a corner store. Keeping it general, will avoid more of these types of situations. If people don’t think more racist acts won’t happen, you haven’t opened your eyes to the racism in B.C. I saw it first hand loud and clear on our street in the 1960s and all we had were parents who spoke with a European accent. Rude comments about Jews were made fairly regularly but then similar comments started to be made about people from China.

    Some may be concerned about businesses failing and people being unemployed, but we’ve been through this before, it just this time it can hit any one. the thing is we have survived economic downturns. You don’t survive death. Its so permanent and no I don’t prescribe to that thing about an after life, heaven, hell, etc. when you’re dead you’re dead. Its hard to see your business, you’ve worked your whole adult life for, go down the shitter, but really do you want your friends and clients to be dead? Some people are just too concerned about the money. now being a retired person with pension cheques coming in each month it could be said it won’t impact me, but it does impact my friends and my friends’ kids.

    When we had the flu pandemic back in the early 1900s people died, just check some graveyards. Then we had the depression. People lived through that, not a pandemic.

    People also move around the Lower Mainland, so closing specific neighbourhoods and not others isn’t going to help. people drive every where and anywhere and its hard to close off a neighbourhood. Closing off the Lower Mainland is easy. There are a limited number of roads in and out, well unless you know the old logging roads. Its easy to keep Vancouver Island safe, no ferries, except for essential travel.

    people in my opinion don’t want to deal with the reality of this disease and the long term effects it can have on children and adults, not to mention animals. People need to get over themselves and their hobbies. it is not essential you go to the gym, trust me. Its not essential to go shopping for the 20th t shirt. I love shopping and crawling through antique, collectible, vintage shops. Haven’t been in one since Feb. haven’t been in a shoe store either or a clothing store. Did manage to save some money that way though.

    Think of the sacrificies people made during WW II. And some of us are whinning because we can’t go to the gym or the kid can’t go to dance class. GET over it. this disease kills.

    As to imposing fines. Ya, like that makes a lot of sense. People won’t be paying them. It might work on some and it might be an idea, but what if people don’t pay. Until people learn to behave we may just have to keep things shut down.

    As to Christmas, well my artificial trees are in the garage and I’ll bring them up. I love
    christmas so I’m going to decorate and put up the lights, the whole nine yards. Christmas shopping, not happening. Will order on line, for one sibling and be done with it. I’m expecting the sibling to order Purdy’s for me and have it delivered. I’ll be thrilled. the money we save will go to the Sally Ann or the Union Gospel Mission or both

    As we head into the “festive season” the health authority might want to make a couple of large raids on parties, and have them all taken to a tented medical facility and have them do two weeks. That might help. They won’t be happy and it will send a message to the others thinking of having a party.

    (Response: I don’t see the Covid spread we see now as relating to any particular ethnic group … but instead more related to geographical areas, Covid educational levels/failures, large family gatherings and celebrations. Yes, coming up this weekend is Diwali, but as I noted there are all kinds of other festivals fast approaching too. So I understand the Public Health concerns and support crackdowns wherever NECESSARY. But I think the current crackdown goes too far, hurts too many innocent people/jobs/businesses who are observing the rules …. targeted because Health officials and the NDP politicians are too weak and afraid to identify, call out and crack down in the the concentrated area where too many folks and families are holding large family gatherings and parties without regard to Covid protocols. Go after THEM, not the rest of us!!

    P.S. After I posted this Comment/Response a blog reader forwarded me this story from News 1130 …quoting Dr Henry that there IS an ethnic/cultural link with the current Covid spread: https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/11/12/covid-19-south-asian-community/. h.o)

  16. DBW says:

    Harvey you said this: “I expect they’re not telling us the real plan. I believe the public is being fed only part of the story”

    So what do you suspect is the real story?

    You have a platform, a fairly large one you claim so lines like this are not helpful. They feed people who think covid is a hoax, that we shouldn’t be wearing masks, etc etc. I wouldn’t be commenting this much if I didn’t think your comments need clarification. We are not enemies here. We all need to be on the same page.

    You said this: Health officials should go after the GUILTY

    Nobody disagrees with that. But I don’t think the Chilliwack dance studio has any villains. I am sure they were following every protocol . Some innocent brought the virus in and it spread. No villain brought the virus to a spin class. Crap happens.

    But if those are the places where the virus spreads then dance studios and spin classes are cancelled for a couple of weeks in the two most infected, most congested regions. If you think it can be narrowed down further then write Dr. Henry. But the dance studio was not in south Surrey. And it is pointless to close spreader places only after the fact.

    All of us understand that businesses and livelihoods are in danger. Just because some of us are pushing back on your post doesn’t mean we don’t care. Hell, I tipped my barber 100% the other day telling her that it made up for the haircuts I had missed. Most of us want to do our part. Nobody has a monopoly on empathy.

    Bonnie Henry is doing what she feels is most appropriate at this time. BC’s restrictions have not been as harsh as most jurisdictions. She is trying to get a handle on the second wave with a fairly minimal health order. And no she is not God but she is the expert so I am going to listen more to her than anybody else.

    WE NEED TO BE ON THE SAME SIDE.

    (Response: I’ve cited the FACTS several times: I can’t help it if people are such NDP/Dr Bonnie “team” players they refuse to see/think about what is really happening. I’ll try once more: there were 998 new Covid cases in BC last weekend; a whopping 737 of them were in Fraser Health. Actually, apparently concentrated in just part of Fraser Health. Does anyone really believe that, if the 737 cases, out of 998, had been in Vancouver’s West End, the entire TWO health regions as far as Hope would be subjected to the same penalties/restrictions??? I don’t. So I believe politics is playing a part in the reluctance of weak-kneed Health officials and politicians to crack down on people and places in THAT PART of Fraser Health where the HUGE problem is … imposing instead massive overkill restrictions and collective punishment on 2 million people/families/businesses from Vancouver all the way to Hope. Ridiculous! I FULLY support NECESSARY Covid crackdowns/closures/enforcement/interference with civil rights WHERE the Covid problem is out of hand … but not arbitrary imposition of unjustifiable suffering on millions because officials are too afraid to ticket/charge/target/go after and shut down the area where the real culprits are ignoring Covid rules. But I oppose causing unnecessary suffering by families, friends, restaurants, bars, businesses in a huge area where Covid protocols HAVE BEEN followed and the numbers HAVE BEEN quite good. Get it now? h.o)

  17. DBW says:

    Harvey said, “I’ve cited the FACTS several times: I can’t help it if people are such NDP/Dr Bonnie “team” players they refuse to see/think about what is really happening.

    Was this supposed to be an insult? Definitely on team Bonnie. I am even on team Kenney. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-sports-bars-covid19-1.5799427

    Harvey neither one of us is an expert. And I really don’t want to repeat myself either because you are convinced that I am nothing more than some partisan hack.

    I know you keep stating the FACTS but it is the interpretation of the facts that is important. Just because Fraser Health has a lot more cases than Vancouver doesn’t mean that the numbers in Vancouver Health aren’t concerning. Just because the cases in a couple of communities are high doesn’t mean the numbers in the other communities aren’t concerning.

    And in the Lower Mainland it doesn’t take any time to go from one community to the next. Vancouver to Hope with all the communities in between takes about the same amount of time for me to drive from Rupert to Terrace. If the spin class isn’t open in Surrey, how many minutes does it take someone to get to Delta or Langley or New Westminster.

    The current orders do affect some people but they are not overly excessive. Dr. Henry is pressing people to be responsible and to cut back on social gatherings for two weeks, another ten days.

    But what concerns me the most whether you want to admit it or not, you are emboldening people to ignore Dr. Henry’s advice. “Hey Harvey says the problem isn’t in my neighbourhood why shouldn’t I invite friends over.”

    (Response: I am not the one emboldening people to ignore the latest Order: people watch the news …they SEE where the numbers are (Fraser south); they SEE how huge an area the new Order covers; so FAR MORE than those who read/pass on this blog tend to ignore the Order!! Because they believe the Order went too far … because Health and government officials were too weak-kneed in going after … laying charges, handing out tickets and closing down establishments specifically violating the rules … not punishing everyone from Vancouver up to Hope. h.o)

  18. NVG says:

    Dear Harvey

    Invoking ‘NDP/Dr Bonnie “team” players’ as an argument as to what is being done incorrectly so far about Covid-19, doesn’t help.

    Would you feel differently, after the recent provincial election, if the Green’s Government …. sorry, if it were the BC Liberal Government Health Minister standing before you now announcing a replacement for Dr. Henry forthwith, because in the eyes of their Leader/Dr. Andrew Wilkinson, she’s done a poor job of it, …. would you rejoice?

    As to your statement: “Does anyone really believe that, if the 737 cases, out of 998, had been in Vancouver’s West End, the entire TWO health regions as far as Hope would be subjected to the same penalties/restrictions??? I don’t.

    My answer would be a resounding YES.

    The downtown core is squished into a 3.7 square kilometre box with a total of 100,660 people living/b> in the residential catchment of Vancouver. That number doesn’t include the daily commuters from Vancouver’s surrounding neighbourhoods.

    If 737 cases of Covid-19 were in downtown Vancouver, rather than 249 for the whole of Vancouver Coastal Health district, all roads to the suburbs would be shut down immediately.

    (Response: On this Blog, I don’t care which party is in power: I will NEVER apologize for raising tough questions or calling ANY of them out when I believe they’ve gone too far or made bad mistakes. No partisan sheep moi! And by the way, not only has Dr Bonnie Henry now identified much more specifically the area of greatest problem/concern (see the News1130 interview) but even Norm Spector, highly respected, experienced, knowledgeable political advisor has raised an issue about what has been going on at BC Public Health in regard to Fraser Health. He tweeted yesterday: “In BC, both cases and test positivity rose sharply in October, and it’s regrettable that Dr Bonnie Henry waited until after the election to crack down in Fraser Health.” The numbers/charts show rapid rise of Covid in Fraser Health for some time: why did they not crack down (put out the fire as soon as it was noticed???). Anything to do with the Oct 24 election? Very valid question in my view: maybe the current crisis requiring a Special Order could have been prevented? h.o)

  19. DBW says:

    I apologize to you and the other readers for constantly commenting. But this is a really important conversation and clarity is absolutely essential. And I know we are on the same side as much as it might not look that way. Look at your headline

    So one last shot at this.

    Question for Bonnie Henry: Can you explain why Vancouver Health has been included in the recent restrictions when its numbers are far lower than Fraser Health? Could you explain why we can’t focus our attention on individual communities in Fraser Health for these restrictions when the bulk of the numbers seem to be coming from just one or two areas. Do you think it is time to crack down harder on individuals or businesses that are clearly flaunting the rules? (everybody listening – “interesting questions”)

    vs

    The numbers clearly show that certain areas are the culprits? Why does everybody have to suffer? What are you hiding? (most people -Whaaat? a few others – Right On! Damn Government! Screw This!”)

    That’s it, Harvey. We are the same side just taking different approaches.

    Enjoy what every holiday season you celebrate folks. But please stay safe for yourself and others.

    (Response: I really enjoy your input ..even when we disagree (and therefore you are clearly wrong). 🙂 We ARE on the same side: I am personally scared as hell of Covid, at my age and with my personal health concerns. I have cancelled two lunches, one dinner out this week to comply with Dr Bonnie’s plan; two outings next week …cutting back to just a couple of get togethers within my bubble. But I know the worst thing any government can do is impose restrictions, rules, laws, orders that people grow so fed up with they ignore them! And I believe Dr Henry and the government screwed up this one by over-reaching, over-restricting instead of targeting the real culprits/geographical center of the problem. Vancouver all the way to Hope??? Please!!! Really??? My fear is by over-reaching on the latest, instead of STRONGLY going after Fraser Health (south part especially) with tickets/charges/closures at the beginning of October and now, it could be very difficult to get people to listen/conform to similar Orders (ho hum, another one) over Christmas and New Years…with devastating consequences. h.o)

  20. D. M. Johnston says:

    From the Breaker – Bob Mackin

    https://thebreaker.news/business/nagra-sarai-manish/

    I think this sums up our concerns.

    Now, over to the Flu season.

    With the majority of people in near lockdown and in bubbles, with international travel almost non existent, is the concern with seasonal Flu being over stated?

    I ask this and wonder if our political leaders, through the bureaucracy are trying to take people minds off BC’s growing Covid debacle?

    I ponder this because, just last week, road tolling or congestion charging of vehicles was again floated in Vancouver. It seems someone or some cabal are desperately trying to take the public mind off of Covid and worry about higher taxes they cannot afford.

    The City of Vancouver, especially the mayor seems unaware that the effects of Covid are bordering on the generational and pretends just more taxes will solve everything.

    So many questions, so little reporting by the mainstream media, which now seems to follow the FOX news school of journalism.

    It seems the media are afraid of the truth because it would embarrass the government more and more inept handling of Covid.

    We do not need threats from Horgan and Dix as it seems their right hands know not what their left hands are doing.

    I will say this again, 2021 will make 2020 a cakewalk and I do not see one politician, federally, provincially or civically; not one, preparing for the grim days coming.

    (Response: That article totally backs/supports my concerns and the questions I raised. And there’s now more: in the News 1130 interview, Dr Bonnie Henry herself stated: “Dr. Bonnie Henry said the increase of cases in the South Asian community is mainly due to weddings and celebration-of-life events. It’s not in any way to blame the community,” she told a group of South Asian reporters during a teleconference this week. “But now we need to take measures to protect the community because it is transmitted in the South Asian community more so than we are seeing in other people right now.” There we have it: Dr Bonnie herself identifying the source/heavy concentration of current problems/concerns. Here again is the link to the full News1130 interview: https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/11/12/covid-19-south-asian-community/. My own zeroing in on Fraser south was based on the geographical area of greatest infections, not cultural/ethnic …but clearly I was correct ..the BIG problem us is in one area …so again the question MUST be asked “Why are we under clampdown and restrictions from Vancouver all the way to Hope??? All that is going to do is encourage disrespect and ignoring of Public Health Orders…. crying wolf in effect. And that scares me ..because I recognize the need for REAL crackdowns and REAL restrictions when and where they are needed …and it’s looking increasingly like this one was applied far too wide, thus losing its credibility. h.o)

  21. hawgwash says:

    There was a Bonnie attack
    Knowing she couldn’t fight back.
    I called it unfair
    But it got me nowhere.
    So it’s time for another track.

    Keeping it real
    Has lost its appeal.
    With the old choir has gone
    Now venom’s the song
    So saying I’m done is the deal.

  22. nvg says:

    I’m nowhere close to your writing capabilities hawgwash, but I do like to take photos and post them to my blog https://blogborgcollective.blogspot.com/2020/11/only-in-british-columbia-make-will-week.html

    Rain or Shine, every day I go for a walk to Cleveland Dam, there and back
    http://blogborgcollective.blogspot.com/2019/01/just-walk-in-park-cleveland-dam.html

    …. with Harvey’s permission, the links,

  23. John's Aghast says:

    What exactly is a ‘spin class’?
    Seriously, I’ve never heard the term, but then I’m fortunately, not in the affected area.

    (Response: Something to do with stationery bicycle riding at high speed. I prefer medium-speed walking. 🙂 h.o)

  24. NVG says:

    I sure miss the sound of the voices of notable individuals in British Columbia’s political scene. From: Royal BC Museum

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVt4tM-z3E

    Harvey Oberfeld, Alex MacDonald, Jack Webster

    Webster! Full Episode February 29, 1980

    (Response: Wow! Thanks for that! I had no idea it even existed. Those were the days when MANY reporters and pundits …not just the two in this piece …kept politicians “feet to the fire” in interviews, as another responder on here mentioned earlier. So sad, when I see so many reporters and anchors and pundits interviewing elected and appointed officials these days and those questioned no doubt saunter away not even feeling their feet warm!! h.o)

  25. DBW says:

    Harvey this article might be of help.

    https://bc.ctvnews.ca/which-b-c-regions-have-the-most-covid-19-cases-updated-map-shows-hotspots-1.5188259

    Surrey 3993 confirmed cases
    Vancouver 3443 confirmed cases

    “The recently released data shows nearly every region of those two health authorities dealing with more than 200 cases per 100,000 residents.”

    Which of the cities from Vancouver to Hope do you think should be exempted from the current two week “circuit breaker” restrictions? And how will that actually work when people have to travel between those neighbouring places for all sorts of reasons.

    Along with your Big Sister type rhetoric, this is my biggest concern about your post.

    (Response: I appreciate your effort to provide Covid data right back to the beginning of the year. Once the pandemic is history, long term data will be of interest to epidemiologists. However, in fighting any immediate life-threatening crisis, historical data is useless. No one would suggest how/where to fight a major raging flood wreaking havoc on a particular community NOW by studying overall flooding data over the previous nine months. The CURRENT Public Health Order is meant to deal with CURRENT (and maybe even estimated future) Covid incidences . As has been stated SEVERAL TIMES on here and many other news/commentary media, there were 998 cases last weekend ..and 737 of those were in Fraser Health … in fact, mostly one particular part of Fraser Health. AND the figures for Tuesday and Wednesday showed the SAME problem: of 1,130 new Covdi cases, 808 were in Fraser Health. That’s where the flooding is!! No need to sandbag areas where there was flooding nine months back!! Or evacuate everyone from Vancouver to Hope! h.o)

  26. NVG says:

    Today, Vancouver Sun; video, Vaughn Palmer @ 3Min mark asking Dr. Bonnie Henry on ….
    https://youtu.be/Jkw-Q7Gvj58

  27. DBW says:

    Right then. How about this.

    http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/PublishingImages/health-info/diseases-conditions/covid-19/case-counts-press-statements/covid19_hsda_cumulative_14days_20201112.png

    Map on the right is the past 14 days up to Nov. 12.

    Fraser South is clearly the winner with 2700 but is Fraser North not a trouble spot with 928 and Vancouver proper with over 500. How about Fraser East with almost 500. The (Okanagan and the Northeast have troubling percentages although the raw numbers aren’t too high and the communities are more isolated.)

    Keep in mind this. BC is not the only province putting in some restrictions for two weeks. Alberta yesterday and Saskatchewan and Ontario today. I kind of felt sorry for Doug Ford who was taking questions from the press. One of the questions was why he didn’t put in these restrictions earlier and it was asked in a kind of accusatory manner. His answer was had the modeling shown the severity of the problem back around Thanksgiving he would have done so.

    As for BC maybe the modelling shows that now is the time to put a pause on some activities in the entire Lower Mainland to hopefully slow the virus down before it gets to where Bonnie Henry is asked why she didn’t do this sooner. But I am not the expert here. So I ask again. What do those numbers tell you and which communities would you exempt. You sound like you know the answer.

    I just want this done right Harvey.

    (Response: Did you forget or deliberately ignore my statements right in the Blog: ” Do these numbers justify a Public Health Order imposing such extensive new restrictions ??? I’d say YES in Fraser Health; NO in Vancouver Coastal!” My position is very clear: we MUST stop Covid. Enforce crackdowns, shutdowns, lay charges against home party guests and hosts WHEREVER necessary; BUT don’t punish/suppress millions of innocent people in areas where a massive hammer is not necessary. If the problem is in Fraser Health ..south, north, east or west, apply an Order there! There is great danger in promoting disobedience and pushback when, to get at Fraser violations, Orders prevent, say, someone in Vancouver from inviting a few friends over from West Vancouver for carefully controlled dinner/coffee/chess etc. Likewise there is great danger in promoting disobedience and pushback, if to get at a huge problem NOW in Fraser, the government Orders people in Hope not to socialize with friends or family from Chilliwack. I believe enforcement … call it red zones or whatever …must be pinpointed to be CREDIBLE and EFFECTIVE …and tickets, charges, closures MUST take place WHERE the virus IS a mounting problem …not in a 100-mile radius area where it is mostly under control or can be under improved control with education and co-operation, but not enforced with excessive collective punishment … or people will just start ignoring them .. which will help the virus spread. h.o)

  28. NVG says:

    Here’s a link to CURRENT and historical data:
    Probably BC CTV News source:

    https://archive.news.gov.bc.ca/releases/news_releases_2017-2021/2020HLTH0060-001927.htm

    Half way down the page: Find the PHO’s orders, visit.

    For a listing of the community exposure events, go to:

    BCCDC (flights, work sites, etc.):
    http://www.bccdc.ca/health-info/diseases-conditions/covid-19/public-exposures

    Fraser Health:
    fraserhealth.ca/covid19exposure

    Interior Health:
    https://news.interiorhealth.ca/news/public-exposures/

    Island Health:
    https://www.islandhealth.ca/learn-about-health/covid-19/outbreaks-and-exposures

    Northern Health:
    https://www.northernhealth.ca/health-topics/outbreaks-and-exposures
    **********************************
    Bottom line, Public Exposures:
    Vancouver Coastal: http://www.vch.ca/covid-19/public-exposures

    Infection Control:
    http://www.vch.ca/your-care/your-safety-privacy/infection-control/current-outbreaks

    View Current Outbreaks (which opens a pdf)
    http://www.vch.ca/_layouts/15/DocIdRedir.aspx?ID=VCHCA-1797567310-1760

    eg.
    Arbutus Care Facility 1st floor COVID-19 4505 Valley Dr, Vancouver
    Restrictions imposed 13-Nov-2020

    eg. same document: Gastrointestinal Illness
    Edgemont Amica at Edgemont Village, Memory Care Unit

  29. DBW says:

    Let’s sum up.

    You – with all your knowledge – feel comfortable stating as fact that the 500+ (and spiking) in Vancouver is not enough cases to warrant action.

    And not only that you can say with confidence “Vancouver was included, I’d say, for political reasons: authorities didn’t want to appear to be singling out/targeting just one region, Fraser Health, just before Diwali.”

    Because again with confidence you say that Dr. Henry is some kind of Big Sister running roughshod over our rights because

    some -not millions – can’t go to spin class
    some – not millions – can’t go to dance class
    some – not millions – can’t play team sports

    FOR TWO WEEKS

    because these are the places that spread the virus and hopefully we can slow the virus enough for hospitals and contact tracers, and medical staff to have a fighting chance

    And no I have not forgotten the million or so people in Vancouver Health who have been asked to behave responsibility for TWO WEEKS by reducing their bubble because the virus has been spreading that way as well.

    Is that your argument.

    Now let’s look at the rule breaking argument. I am under no illusion that rules will be broken. You suggest that people in Vancouver should be allowed to have people over because according to you they live in a safe zone. Without building a Warsaw ghetto type wall around the more infectious areas, what is to stop people from those places coming to Vancouver and visiting friends there?

    Reflecting on this whole discussion, I am trying to figure out why I care so much. I am in good health. Unlike you I don’t have any underlying conditions that would make covid a problem for me if I caught it. I can say with a lot of confidence “Bring it on”. But I am doing everything possible to make sure I don’t get it because I don’t want to pass it on to somebody who isn’t as lucky as I am.

    So I am kind of shocked when I read a blogger who admits to being afraid of covid undermine pretty tame two week restrictions not just by saying they are not necessary but by suggesting that their is some kind of nefarious plot behind them.

    Fortunately though I don’t think most of your readers are buying it, but even one is too many.

    Stay well.

  30. Gilbert says:

    I think some here have posted far too much. They’re certainly entitled to their opinions. However, I doubt they will change people’s minds because they post more than others.

    I agree with your points, Harvey. The government should not hesitate to control the coronavirus with effective and specific measures that address the root of the problem. This applies even if it risks offending the people of a particular area or ethnic group.

    (Response: I don’t mind a good discussion … even when we disagree. And I have been very happy with how everyone is sticking to the topic! Your last paragraph sums my position up pretty well. And I think, unfortunately, my concerns about over-reaching and crying “wolf” from Vancouver all the way to Hope, when the problem is clearly in a particular part of Fraser Health will be proven correct when there IS real reason to shut down huge geographic areas, but fatigued people will just ignore it. h.o)

  31. NVG says:

    I just found an interactive map showing where all the BC Covid-19 Collection Services are in all of the Health Care areas in British Columbia.

    I can see why Vancouver Coast and Fraser Health are linked together in LockDown mode even though the ‘outbreaks’ are to the east. There are 10 collection centres between Hope to Burnaby General Hospital / from the US border to Maple Ridge …… and there are 10 for Vancouver Coast (Lower Mainland) + (YVR) with the higher density, but, ……. there’s not one west of Oak Street

    https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/3862560c5a41418e9d78f4f81688e9d0

  32. DBW says:

    Harvey, I know I have written far more than my fair share on your last two posts. As someone who has been critical of people blathering endlessly, I know how annoying that can be. I just hope I haven’t been “blathering”.

    For Gilbert who said this: “The government should not hesitate to control the coronavirus with effective and specific measures that address the root of the problem. This applies even if it risks offending the people of a particular area or ethnic group.”

    I agree absolutely. If this were all this discussion were about, I wouldn’t have had a lot to say. Dr. Henry has singled out the South Asian community. She has put in restrictions before Diwali. And according to my wife who listens to every one of Dr. Henry’s briefings, this is not the first time she has talked about cultural traditions and language barriers that make the fight against covid 19 more difficult.

    I know we are all on the same side. My disagreement with you is more in the messaging. Dr. Henry is not immune to criticism. What I admire about her is when she is asked a difficult question (and your press friends aren’t as cosy as you might think) she is calm and transparent. She is not like Trudeau, Ford or Horgan and other politicians who are much more defensive.

    I hope I am done. Thanks for the platform. And stay safe everybody.

    (Response: As I said previously, I don’t mind a good discussion: I enjoy it. I kind of view my blog as a living room forum: I put up a topic and my own view/rant … and then others join in, give their own point of views … and we go back and forth. Disagreement is welcome. The only ones I throw out or don’t allow in are those who think they can just insult people personally etc. Otherwise, it’s a very good exercise in democracy … and I am very happy these days about how well contributors are sticking to the topic! 🙂 h.o)

  33. nonconfidencevote says:

    ” I don’t see the Covid spread we see now as relating to any particular ethnic group … but instead more related to geographical areas, Covid educational levels/failures, large family gatherings and celebrations”

    ++++
    and therein lies the politically correct problem.

    I dont think its a secret that when the politicians and the health authorities continually mention “Fraser Health region and particularly Surrey…”
    They are “nudge nudge wink wink” trying to focus our attention and their unspoken ( non racist?) concerns about a scofflaw group of East Indian ( sorry South Asian) super spreader events…..

    As someone previously commented, “political correctness will be the end of us” or the virus will just hammer the crap out of the idiots that refuse to abide by the rules set up for everyone and if that happens to be a particular race of people….. then, thats their right to ignore the rules …. get really really sick and die.

    And in the unbiased, non racist, politically correct world we live in …….. unmasked, non socially distanced Trump Maga protesters take note.

    I for one, will continue to follow protocals, isolate and watch the virus run its course killing the stubbornly stupid in higher numbers than the smart.
    Darwinian survival at it’s basest

    (Response: I know there are a lot of East Asians in Fraser Health, especially Surrey, but there are a lot of other ethnicities too : that’s why my concern focused on the geography of where the highest violations/incidents were, rather than any particular group. I really don’t care WHO its is that is ignoring the protocols: I just believe Health Officials should go after/enforce THEIR compliance, with raids, tickets, charges and closures, rather than punish everyone from Vancouver to Hope and beyond. h.o)

  34. DonGar says:

    Interesting points and links.
    I would still like to see all details around who (aggregate numbers not individuals) are getting the virus, (age, underlying conditions, any other common factors and location). Of those testing positive who (age, underlying conditions etc), end up in hospital and who from that subset end up in ICU and recover or not. Seems to me these are very important in determining how best to selectively protect vulnerable instead of just shutting everything down. Is it because they just don’t know or?

  35. NVG says:

    Every one is vulnerable.

  36. DBW says:

    Yeh it is me again and I am truly sorry but I want to clarify something I wrote and I thank nvg for his succint comment that reminded me of my error.

    When I agreed with Gilbert who said “The government should not hesitate to control the coronavirus with effective and specific measures that address the root of the problem. This applies even if it risks offending the people of a particular area or ethnic group.”

    I should have paid more attention to the last sentence. No we should not back away from the truth even if it offends someone. But it is more than that.

    It doesn’t mean we get to fingerpoint or isolate or condemn. We need to educate. It’s all about messaging. Nobody wants to become infected; nobody wants to be a carrier. The last thing we need is complacency because we think it is NIMBY.

    This topic is so complex. On the one hand I have no problem with the recent health orders that Harvey thinks are draconian yet Harvey calls for more severe punishment for violators that I would call draconian. Weird eh.

    I really do get the frustration that Harvey is expressing about Vancouver to Hope, but when the numbers are there, it is very hard to micromanage condensed, highly populated regions. I am still putting my faith in Dr. Henry.

    I hope that makes sense and wasn’t a whole lot of blather. Stay safe.

  37. NVG says:

    Gilbert’s: ‘I think some here have posted far too much. They’re certainly entitled to their opinions. However, I doubt they will change people’s minds because they post more than others.

    With that kind of logic, those who post more than once, are wasting their breath. Over to you Harvey because you get to comment, offer an opinion, a rebuttal, almost every time.

    31 opinions (37 now) with contributions down to, and including Gilbert:

    D.M. Johnston 2
    e.a.f. 1
    DBW 11
    NVG 7
    Art Smith 1
    Terry Montgomery 1
    Richard Skelly 1
    Hawgwash 4
    Harry Lawson 1
    and Gilbert 1

    Keep up the good work, you all.

    (Response: I like a good discussion if people stay on topic … especially if I don’t have to trim for length. h.o)

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