Trudeau/Horgan Cruise Ship BLUNDER Could Cost BC Billions

It’s a basic rule in running a successful business … small or large: don’t insult, anger, or push away your best clients.

Especially if they spend more than $2 Billion a year on your products and support 7,000 jobs in your company.

Because they can go elsewhere!

Too bad neither Trudeau nor Horgan figured that out before they came down so willing, so arrogantly and, frankly, I believe so stupidly in the way they shut down and shut out the cruise ship industry from BC over the Covid-19 pandemic.

I get it. Almost no one wanted and almost no one could blame the federal government (or the province for supporting) the ban on cruise ships and their one million annual passengers from our ports during the pandemic.

Not even an avid cruiser like me. Not even THIS Summer, as our fight against the pandemic begins to succeed.

MUCH better safe than sorry.

But Trudeau and Horgan BLUNDERED their handling of the file … I believe as much for political reasons as health concerns: to impress anti-cruise industry supporters, the environmental activists and the anti-American bigots among their base.

In fact, I wrote a Blog last February pondering whether Trudeau’s motivation was retaliation against the US for cancelling Keystone: http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/canadas-total-cruise-ship-ban-retaliates-for-keystone/.

Because Canada not only banned the ships/passengers from our ports … we also banned them from even stopping in BC waters, anchoring for four hours off shore, letting no passengers/crew off or on, taking no supplies on … just a “technical stop” long enough to satisfy US shipping laws.

Under American legislation, designed to protect US shipping and crewing jobs, foreign-registered ships cannot carry cargo or passengers between US ports without stopping en route at a foreign port.

Since almost all cruise ships are foreign-flagged, stops in Vancouver, Victoria, Prince Rupert en route to Alaska met the requirement beautifully … in more ways than one!

We saw 290 Alaska-bound sailings start or stop in annually at BC ports … soaking in our scenery, our food, our products, our tours, our hotels etc. etc. etc. … and spending BIG TIME.

There was absolutely no excusable reason … other than nastiness … that Canada could not have allowed Alaska bound cruises from the US to make a “technical stop” in Canadian waters without putting into any of our ports!

None!

But Horgan supported Trudeau’s move: ““I know that this is a big blow for Victoria and parts of Vancouver and even up-island and beyond into Prince Rupert and Alaska,” Horgan said. “But I’m confident, if you talk to the vast majority of people in Victoria, they would be hailing this decision,” reported Business in Vancouver in February.

At first, it looked like the death of the 2021 Alaska entire cruise season .. and an economic loss to the state of almost $1.5 Billion (U.S.).

Did Trudeau and Horgan think the Americans would take that lying down? As complacently as Canadians?

The Americans didn’t.

I warned about just that in my February blog post … exactly how the US might suspend the foreign-port requirement to save Alaska’s 2021 cruise season.

Trudeau/Horgan’s blunders in handling that file could now cost BC Billions of dollars each year …. permanently.

Special legislation breezed through the US Congress … with rare bi-partisan support … granting the cruise industry a WAIVER, allowing cruise ships to TEMPORARILY sail from US ports (Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles) DIRECTLY to Alaska … without a foreign stop.

Even when the legislation was introduced in Congress, Horgan pooh-poohed the chances it would pass:

“Premier John Horgan had earlier dismissed the measure, backed by a trio of Alaskan politicians, as a “blip” and assured reporters that the chances of it being passed by the American Senate were “remote,” Vancouver Sun columnist Vaughn Palmer wrote in May.

He was wrong!

That waiver will expire once Canada/US border and cruise restrictions are removed.

But wait!

It has now occurred to some US lawmakers that, by sailing directly to Alaska, the ships will spend more time in American waters, and can make more stops in ports.

So why not make the waiver permanent? And cut out the Canadian ports … and even the need and the hassle for millions of people to go through customs.

Here’s how that would work: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/us-bill-alaska-cruise-ships-skip-bc-ports-permanently

Horgan and Trudeau’s selfish anti-cruise ship base wouldn’t mind … but with each ship bringing/spending about $3 million dollars in Vancouver alone … others want to see them return, when it’s safe.

But there IS a way to get the Americans to back off their latest threat to cut out Canadian ports completely, even after the pandemic is contained and passengers/crew are all vaccinated.

First of all, the cruise ship lines … if not the American politicians … know OUR ports are popular: beautiful, friendly, safe and clean.

Let’s keep it real: BC and BC ports, like Vancouver and Victoria, are attractions in themselves … and even if the US adopts the proposed new bypass rule, the ships WILL come to BC … or at least, many of them.

And for those that don’t, Canada has to let the Americans know that cruise ships NOT stopping in Canadian ports will NOT be able to use Canada’s Inside Passage … a particularly scenic and popular part of Alaska-bound itineraries.

Let them stay out to sea … where the waters are rougher and the scenery is … wetter.

That should help get us out of the mess Trudeau and Horgan needlessly created.

Harv Oberfeld

(Reminder: Follow @harveyoberfeld on Twitter for FREE First Alerts to new postings on this Blog.)

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43 Responses to Trudeau/Horgan Cruise Ship BLUNDER Could Cost BC Billions

  1. nonconfidencevote says:

    I will never assume that our politicians will use common sense and do the right thing.
    BC isnt a game changer in Federal politics.

    Horgan may be sweating a bit trying to figure out how Capitalism and politics actually work…
    As for Trudeau.
    Do he actually worry about anything except apologizing for what our forefathers did 100 years ago?

    (Response: Trudeau should have closed our ports … but left passage through our waters unhindered… including “technical stops” without landing if they wanted. And Horgan sure looked asleep at the wheel, maybe catered too much to his anti_American, anti cruise ship base, and underestimated the American reaction and the ability of even divided US politicians to come together when such a huge part of the Alaskan economy comes under threat. h.o)

  2. Stu de Baker says:

    Well you really are oversimplifying the international, US and Canadian maritime regulations.

    For example: “And, Canada has to quietly let the Americans know that cruise ships NOT stopping in Canadian ports will also NOT be able to use Canada’s Inside Passage … a particularly scenic and popular part of Alaska-bound itineraries.”

    That has always been the case.

    Any ships, with a few exceptions, like the Bellingham to AK ferries, fall under a litany of regulations as soon as they ENTER Canadian waters. Be it the Strait of Juan de Fuca and up the east side of Vancouver Island or crossing Queen Charlotte Sound to enter the real inside passage.

    Secondly, the cruise industry does not want to continue. US to US direct routing because they know they will soon fall victim to US laws in existence or new ones to be sworn.

    I have zero faith in the cruise lines ever being good citizens. They will not do anything they aren’t forced to do. They dodge as many laws and taxes as possible, and look for handouts, because that’s simply how they operate.

    That means they absolutely do not want to fall under any US laws, rules or regulations if they can avoid it.

    Sure the big three are headquartered in the US (southern Florida), but they are incorporated and pay taxes in Panama, Liberia, and Bermuda. While they do employ many Americans in their shore operations, which are the face of the ships and companies to the public, behind the scenes their backbone is cheap foreign labour. When a company can pay a Filipino seafarer less than $900 a month and keep them at sea for 11 months, why would they want to employ Americans? They do not want to risk the unknown consequences of changing any of the Passenger Vessel Services Act.

    They more than anyone else will be lobbying to return to the status quo and so it will be.

    Vancouver and Victoria are too big a part of their business model and Harvey, you know as well as anyone does, the same PVSA applies to the huge Atlantic cruise Market.

    If you followed the US maritime scuttlebutt, as I do, the opposition to change, will be fierce, from within the US.

    If the border opens before Labour Day, we could see cruise ships in Victoria and Vancouver yet, this year. And don’t give me the “impossible to change quickly” routine; it is already part of the cruise world’s plan B.

    (Response: We agree… Vancouver and Victoria and the Inside Passage are a big part of the attractions on “Alaska” cruises. And I agree the industry itself would not want to find itself regulated by any additional US rules/regulations ..especially labour laws. But I notice you did not address the main point behind this piece …that Horgan and Trudeau blundered this file. Since it’s federal jurisdiction, Trudeau should have allowed the “technical stop” provision right from the start; and in view of the economic implications for BC, Horgan should have worked with Alaska, Washington and California politicians to mitigate the closure of our ports and he should not have treated the American plans to circumvent our ban with such disdain and incredulity. It was really a blunder. h.o)

  3. Stu de Baker says:

    Ok, if you want to pick nits; “But I notice you did not address the main point behind this piece …that Horgan and Trudeau blundered this file.” That is simply your entitled opinion. Mine is they did not.
    I believe Trudeau did the right thing and will be quick to recind the ban from Canadian waters, just as soon as it is reasonable to do so.

    By saying; “you did not address the main point behind this piece” you are saying I was off topic and I hope you apply the same critique, to those who will follow with the usual off topic bash-about.

    Did you read the piece about the first US cruise having Covid aboard?
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/passengers-test-positive-covid-19-1st-north-american/story?id=78210113

    Once more, to address the main point behind the piece, I disagree either one blundered and I reiterateit, allowing technical stops is easier said than done.

    “we also banned them from even stopping in BC waters, anchoring for four hours off shore, letting no passengers/crew off or on, taking no supplies on … just a “technical stop” long enough to satisfy US shipping laws.”

    Again oversimplified, but say somehow the logistical nightmare of writing a “technical stop,” which by the way Horgan would have no say in, what would your above quoted bit accomplish?

  4. D. M. Johnston says:

    A preface:

    I was a sole proprietor, operating a tourist based store in downtown Vancouver for over 20 years and the following is just my observation.

    Cruise ships did not bring a lot of business to the city except for high end jewelry stores, offering items easily concealed through American costumes.

    The cruise ship industry was very well choreographed with those arriving and leaving Vancouver so scheduled that they had only a few hours to wander the streets.

    Where the coin was dropped were “quickie” bus tours and alike where large kickbacks brought the customers.

    The big money was servicing the cruise ships themselves, fuel, provisions, waste, and minor repairs on a schedule that has to operate like clockwork.

    As for Horgan, he doesn’t really care, he won the election in 2020 and that seems to sum up his being premier, he won an election.

    The NDP which should be called BC Liberal Lite, is more concerned transferring tax monies to politcal friends and insiders, than anything else and being historically illiterate, will fast become a one term wonder.

    Trudeau on the other hand doesn’t care and will use the cruise ship industry as a politcal tool, especially to keep the public’s minds off children’s bodies now showing up at former residential schools.

    As you stated, Trudeau’s stance is more politcal than practical and if the Americans change their laws and cruise ships do not need to stop at Canadian ports, well I can see retaliation.

    Finally, the Canada tourism product is, at best, well past its best before date. Vancouver is fast turning into an L.A. style dump; Victoria an all to greedy tourist trap; what was Beautiful BC is no more: over built, congested and ugly.

    Sad to say, but I think other pressures are on the cruise ship companies, wanting to avoid Canadian ports, but those in Lotus land are completely blind to that.

    (Response: Well, you’re right about how far Vancouver has slipped as an attractive place for tourists to wander. Under the current Council and Park Board. Stanley Park, with its thousands of orange traffic cones and blocked parking looks will look disgusting again …nice pictures for people to take home and laugh at us. Granville Street is now little more than an extension of Hastings/Main … courtesy of both the City and Provincial social “projects” located along several surrounding blocks. And if they happen to rent/drive cars, they’ll be appalled (try Thurlow from one end to the other!!) at the Third World condition of so many streets (HELLO MEDIA!!!), the confusing/scary traffic lights/rules (try northbound Hornby at Nelson ..LOL!) the lack/cost of downtown parking … and the overall shabbiness of our streets/banners and yes, even the increased dangers lurking in our public spaces. h.o.)

  5. HARRY LAWSON says:

    Harvey,

    Another thought provoking post.

    There are a few considerations that were not mentioned such as ,

    The fact that the Horgan government did not take a meeting with the Alaskan Senate and congressional delegations. I understand they didn’t even respond to the letter until after the US acted and changed a out after rule.

    What role of any did pandering to the environmental,save the whales wing play in this decision..

    The reality is is Vancouver and Victoria ,the inside passage is a designation cruise visit at what percentage only the market will tell.

    (Response: Such arrogance and mishandling by BOTH our federal and provincial governments! I think both Trudeau and Horgan didn’t believe that a divided US Congress … who often seem like they can’t even agree on what day of the week it is … would actually be able to pass such an impactful Bill dealing with hundred-year-old US shipping law. But they did ..and our two “leaders” were left with egg all over their faces … and an already struggling major BC industry has another HUGE problem to deal with … unnecessarily. h.o.)

  6. BMCQ says:

    Great analysis Harvey .

    Back ion February I do not think I agreed with you fully on whether it was retaliation for the XL Pipeline but whatever he reason the Canadian PM has once again proved himself to be a “Not Ready for Prime Time Player” .

    He is about nothing more than Virtue Signaling, full of self importance, pomp and circumstance, and silly juvenile politicking, playing to he “Woke” of Society which just happens to be his base . He cares nothing about the hard working People Kind that built and continue to build this country ..

    Sadly and honestly surprising to me Premier Horgan has actually morphed into a self centred, full of self importance and bluster himself, something I really did not expect from him . I honestly thought Horgan would be more pragmatic, practical, and care more about the Tax Payer when he was elected Premier, friends told me I was mistaken and I suppose I was . I hae being wrong . I thought he was going to be much fairer, balanced, and and thoughtful but then of course he showed his true colours and character when he made that election call which he should never be forgiven for . Sadly he is not the person I truly thought he was and I feel I let myself down by expecting more .

    Again I agree with most of your essay and analysis but there is NO chance in hell that Canadian PM can forbid U.S. Cruise Ships navigating the waters of the inside Passage, we can NEVER forget that B.C. Ferries and much more marine traffic navigate their way to Victoria through U.S. Waters over 100 times each and every week every single day of the year . To restrict U.S. Alaska cruise Ships from our Inside Passage would be suicidal, we would be in a huge amount of trouble immediately and for a long time .

    The Canadian PM and Horgan were ignorant, moronic, shot sighted, and literally blinded by he light to ignore the potential problems of restricting U.S. Cruise Ships without offering an olive branch to at least re start the Vancouver/Victoria Cruises by allowing Air Passengers with Vax passports to fly into YVR then to Hotels and then onto Ships with Vaccinated Crews/Staff and move on to Victoria, Prince Rupert, and Alaska later this year, 2021 . A little thought and effort would have and would have negated the negative results that may cause us Nightmares for the rest of our natural lives .

    Restaurants, Retail, of all kinds, Robson St., Gastown, Victoria, Tourist Spots, Hotels, Chip Chandlers, and other related industries, employees and owners have been literally “Thrown an Anchor” by the Canadian PM and Premier Horgan and it should sicken all of us .

    In the meantime Premier Horgan simply shrugs his shoulders and tries to slide back under his desk hoping to avoid the blame he deserves . You heard him say “How could I have stepped in front of that bus” did you not ?

    This blunder by the Canadian PM and Premier Horgan will cost the B.C. Economy at least $ 4 Billion Dollars each and evry year until the situation is rectified and this will also mean thousands of Canadians/B.C. people out of work and business’s closing or becoming a shadow of heir former selves .

    But not to worry because the B.C. NDP Horgan Gov and municipalities like Victoria and Vancouver will continue o do everything they can to increase Property taxes and other tax to ensure that small business on Robson, or anywhere else and residential renters all get what they deserve, a good thumping .

    Your fourth paragraph Harvey you used the word “Arrogance” , I think that explains it all .

    In the meantime the Canadian Federal Government, the B.C. NDP Government, some in media and some of their disciples on this Blog will try to sell the cancelling of the Cruise Ship business as some sort of “Environmental Victory”, well guess what, the ships will more than likely still e navigating their way up the Inside Passage, and our Federal and Provincial Governments will simply look the other way .

    How do we allow so many inept, imbecilic, impotent, and incompetent people to become elected as our Political Masters, what the Hell is wrong with the Electorate in his country ?

    This will quickly become a catastrophic disaster, surely deserve much better, do we not ?

    Then to top it off Oil is now at over $ 70.00 per Barrel (Canada about $ 50.00) and we can barely get more than a cup full to world markets, how will and how can we cope ?

    How will we finance the Programs we all demand ?

    Does anyone have an answer ?

    (Response: Of course, just because the US Congress ALLOWS cruise ships to bypass the formerly-required Canadian stop, doesn’t mean they will do it …at least not all. Cruise companies are already booking 2022 cruises out of Vancouver … I know, because I’m booked! But if even SOME decide to do it … to test the waters by offering American tourists a direct route to Alaska without crossing borders, the hassle of Customs/Immigration … that could REALLY hurt BC businesses/jobs…. at $3 million for EACH ship arrival/departure. Clearly Horgan and Trudeau have BLUNDERED this file!

  7. Stu de Baker says:

    This blog has hit a nerve with me on at least two levels.

    Because I am actively engaged in the maritime community, including at an international level, I find it disturbing, the degree of uninformed bogeyman rhetoric in print here. Clearly, this is just another drummed up excuse to single out and bash Federal and BC politicians.

    The claims of blunders and the supporting arguments are baseless opinions; nothing more. Reminds me of the anti-mask/vax crowd.

    Listening to answers to a direct cruise ship question, put by Les Leyne at todays step two opening of BC, shows the lack of understanding and the eagerness to throw rocks, on this site.

    https://youtu.be/ItNaumfjzr4?t=2696

    Dr. Henry and Premier Horgan talking about the ongoing talks with all the players; the cruise ship industry, AK, WA, US and Canadian politicians, makes it clear everyone is on the same page. In fact, it was pointed out the US CDC is playing a big role in the restart of international cruises. Strangely, they are going to listen to the science ahead of a cruise industry biased blogger.

    Further, as anecdotal evidence, 46% of BC Liberal party members are solidly in John Horgan’s corner on handling the pandemic and a majority of British Columbians support the cruise ship ban and would not be unhappy to see the ships never return to our waters.

    I’m disappointed with the lengths to which the participants here will go to be negative, at the slightest chance and I fully expect this topic to somehow become the fault of BC teachers.

    (Response: I know it’s very inconvenient for you when this Blog shows where Premier John Horgan blunders (remember “Stay in ONLY your Health Region!”) or does almost nothing and poo-poohs the idea that the US Congress would actually pass a law allowing cruise ships to even temporarily bypass a foreign port on their way to Alaska. Ooops! They did! And now ,there’s another Bill before Congress to make that waiver PERMANENT! https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/us-bill-alaska-cruise-ships-skip-bc-ports-permanently. Oops again! And the NERVE of Les Leyne to even ask about it!! (Good going, Les!) It’s not “throwing rocks”: it’s asking questions and doing the job the media SHOULD do … after the Premier (and the Prime Minister) both FAILED to do the job they should have done to head this problem off at the pass … by allowing “technical stops”! h.o)

  8. BMCQ says:

    Stu

    Well well well !

    Hey, you and I have something in common after all, my company manufactures and distributes $ 7 Million Dollars of B.C. Union Made Marine Product world wide, we supply Marine Wholesale, Retail, Ship Chandlers, Ship Yards, the Canadian Coast Guard, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Coast Guard to name a few .

    There we part company, I believe the Gov of B.C., and the Canadian PM fumbled the ball on this one and the B.C. Libs you claim support the NDP Gov are somewhat off base as well, Political Brand matters not to me . Misguided is misguided .

    (Edited…off topic)

  9. Not Sure says:

    If Trudeau and Horgan blundered then most of us are compliant, complacent and complicit (lol). In your February post on this topic we mostly argued whether the continuation of the cruise ban was in retaliation to Keystone. (“The little Canadian mouse sharing the continent with the American elephant has just bit back where it really hurts,” you said. I asked you

    If this is a “purposeful attack” is that a wise decision on the part of the government to escalate some kind of economic tit for tat with the US?

    your response…

    “Yes, because at some point Canada has to stand up against US bullying/threats (Keystone cancellation without negotiation or even discussion AND the Buy America protectionist threat) and show … without directly saying so … to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.”

    One poster said this: Looks like Trudeau the Younger does have a spine as well, that will make the anti-Trudeau crowd sputter.

    Another poster wanted Trudeau to go further and ban coal exports out of Vancouver.

    You can guess who said this. “I have trouble stating the following but I believe the “Shutdown” of the B.C. Cruise Ship Industry only makes common sense, obviously almost a first for the PM Justin Government after so many amateurish blunders and poor policy since he was elected .He actually made a decision that makes sense and he is guarding over his “Flock”.

    And I am not immune to criticism. Although I didn’t think Canada’s response was retaliatory I did think it was the right thing to do and wondered what could have been done differently. I asked on more than one occasion what was Canada’s end game and whether we should just cave if the US pushed back. While people started to wonder about the effects on the tourism industry, nobody answered that question.

    1.So was Canada right to do what they did? Should they have caved in immediately to a US pushback?

    2. There are lobbyists in the US who have been after a change in the PVSA for years. Had Canada allowed technical stops (and isn’t it up to the US to first make that a possibility) would that have prevented Mike Lee from introducing the legislation anyway.

    3. Let’s see what happens before we tear our hair out.

    (Response: I have no problem with Canada closing our ports to cruise ships this year … for health reasons. And I also surmised there was another unspoken “Key” message being sent to the Americans in not only what we did, but also the way the Trudeau government announced it without consulting and negotiating with the American administration. But when you poke a bear in the snout, it’s always good to leave it a way out: and allowing technical stops in Canadian waters would have done that. And CERTAINLY would have negated the need for the “temporary” waiver legislation …or the later proposal of a permanent waiver from stopping in Canada at all. I recognize this was a federal responsibility …but Horgan blew it too by downplaying and I submit under-estimating the US determination to get around our actions. h.o)

  10. Gilbert says:

    Premier Horgan and Prime Minister Trudeau are not beyond criticism, but it seems to me that there are many blind supporters on this blog who refuse to see any of their flaws. They seem to think that the two radical leftists are absolutely perfect. I can’t say that I’m surprised, though, because many people refuse to see the flaws and failures of those they support.

    I have to agree with BCMQ. I truly thought John Horgan would be better than Adrian Dix, a more moderate and practical politician. However, I was definitely mistaken and am very disappointed with the premier of British Columbia. Unlike former premier Glen Clark, Premier Horgan is not a man of the people and has proven incapable of putting the interests of the province of BC first. He’s just a yes-man for the federal government.

    It was disappointing that President Biden cancelled the Keystone Pipeline without consulting the Canadian government, but that was no reason for the Canadian government to ban cruise ships from making technical stops in Canadian waters. Good politicians should not put their own personal feelings ahead of the best interests of their nation. Tbey should act carefully, responsibly and professionally. Unfortunately, neither the prime minister nor the premier strike me as excellent business leaders or statesmen.

    (Response: Trudeau and the Premiers will hold a Zoom meeting Thursday .. after which (Friday or early next week) Trudeau will announce plans for re-opening the road border for fully vaccinated travelers, without the need to be tested or quarantine. The feds will be responding to pressures from Biden/US, tourist/retail businesses on both sides of the border and families who are getting fed up with their inability to see relatives in the other country. But I suspect if he could, Horgan would keep the Canada US border closed much longer … because of health concerns, but I believe also because he knows that’s what a lot of the far left NDP/Green anti-American types want and my impression is he doesn’t rate families, businesses as high as he rates his political base… especially with his own re-election now behind him. But Trudeau’s lies ahead … and he knows Canadians are reaching the end of their patience. h.o)

  11. r says:

    Well if the parks board had their say…?

    2021 AK cruise season, out of Seattle, is 9 weeks this year starting July 23?

    Dont forget to vote

  12. jay says:

    “But when you poke a bear in the snout, it’s always good to leave it a way out: and allowing technical stops in Canadian waters would have done that. And CERTAINLY would have negated the need for the “temporary” waiver legislation ”

    Yes but poking the bear in the snout tells it you mean business.
    Taking away the technical stops forced the US government to look at this. It forced them to pass legislation. This means they actually had to realize that Canada wasn’t gonna take this lightly.
    Was it retaliation for the pipeline? I think, in part, it was a shot across the bow. It was the proportional response. It hurts a billion dollar industry and sends a message that we aren’t going to be rolled over. It also gives us a point to negotiate.
    It’s nibbling at peoples heels. You can bet a lot of angry phone calls got made to senators and reps.
    Was it the best thing to do? Time will tell. But this won’t be a hill to die on for anyone. Things will most certainly return to normal in the future.

    I working in Vancouver and Victoria as a paramedic. We had frequent trips to the docks to take sick patients off the cruise ships to our hospitals. We also dealt with the throngs from those ships in town for a few days.
    The benefits to the cruise companies and the cities will out weigh the politics.
    Personally I have no faith in provincial or federal government. But sometimes when playing poker you need to have chips to play and this looks like a check raise to me.

  13. Steve Cooley says:

    29 MIN AGO

    Message Actions

    The American lawmakers are the ones without backbone. They made a law to require Americans to build American ships and use American sailors, then allowed a loop hole to allow corporate America to bypass their goal of enhancing American industry and labor. Those Congressmen and Senators are the Quislings. We Canadians were happy to benefit from America’s duplicity. Victoria’s cruise ship industry was built on a feather.

    (Response: The American laws that apply here go back to the 1800s… but they do still serve an important role in preventing cargo ships from China, India, Panama, Liberia etc …paying puny wages to their crews … from carrying US cargo from, say, San Diego or Los Angeles, to Seattle, Portland etc …or from Detroit, New York to Miami, Houston etc. Yes, Canadian ports have benefitted from that law … both for commercial cargos and passenger vessels … and Trudeau/Horgan should have handled the transit issue a lot better to protect the BILLIONS cruise ships contribute to our economy each year. h.o)

  14. nonconfidencevote says:

    @ Stu
    “I’m disappointed with the lengths to which the participants here will go to be negative, at the slightest chance and I fully expect this topic to somehow become the fault of BC teachers.”

    +++

    We can blame the teachers too?
    I’m in!
    ;)-

  15. BMCQ says:

    Whoever told any of you that “Poking a Bear” in the Nose” will benefit Canada vs the USA must have been spending far too much time at “Burning Man” .

    As I pointed out up he page, PLEASE READ –

    Hundreds or times or more each week B.C. Ferries, other commercial water craft and private Canadian registered pleasure craft navigate the waters between Vancouver, Tsawwassen, or any other port on their way to the waters around Victoria B.C. through UNITED STATES waters .

    We must also keep in mind that only about 35% of U.S. Citizens hold Passports so travelling to Alaska directly from Seattle a U.S. Port makes it much easier for Americans and trust me that fact will not be lost on Cruise Ship Officials looking for home ports of departure .

    Trust me, we DO NOT want to open that can of worms by banning U.S. Ships from our inside passage . We would forever regret that strategy.

    We need to be asking more of Canadian PM and Premier Horgan, they really messed up on this file and no mater who or how one might Spin this it is a catastrophe for many different industries already mentioned . Gutted !

    Yes Gilbert, we had hopes for Premier Horgan but it appears the arrogance and intolerant attitude has clouded his judgement . He sure hates being criticized or questioned, what does that say about so called Leadership ?

    I am attaching a Vaughn Palmer Van Sun Column from a day or wo ago, perhaps you have seen it and perhaps not .

    Harvey and Palmer outlined the situation perfectly and very clearly, facts do matter .

    Palmer is fair and balanced and he hits this one right of the park .

    The Canadian PM, Premier Horgan, and the Votes and citizens of Canada and B.C. should listen to what Harvey has written and replied to on this topic and they should pay serious attention to what palmer points out, especially what palmer states about the Horgan comments and attitude the Premier showed to Ian Robertson, it says a lot about the Premier and none of us should like what we hear. Robertson will be polite and not comment but he should .

    Please read all of this very carefully, if you dare

    https://epaper.vancouversun.com/vancouver-sun/20210615/281642488121433

  16. Billie says:

    The fact that Trudeau cancelled cruise ships in Canada until Feb 2022 caused this, nothing else. If Trudeau let them have the technical stops, this would not have happened. Are the east coast provinces having cruise ships stop at their ports right now? Are they in a better position than us right now, because they don’t have Horgan as Premier? No, they are not, so those premiers must be responsible too, if Horgan is. The law that forces cruise ships to stop in Canada (or another country) is an archaic law that has no advantages to the US anymore. If I was an American, I would want it to be changed too, especially seeing how another country can affect your economy this way. The fact is Horgan can talk til he is blue in the face to every living person on this earth, he could cure cancer, fly to Mars, he could be God himself, but he can do nothing UNTIL THE BORDERS ARE REOPENED! And he has been talking to the people he has to talk to, Gov Murkowski has assured him that the go around will be rescinded as soon as the borders open, he can’t do much until the borders reopen. Also, if the law is changed, do you just assume that the cruise ships won’t come here? You must not think too highly of Vancouver or Victoria if you think the cruise ships would just bypass us. I believe they would stop, irregardless of whether that law is in effect or not. We know you dislike Horgan and the NDP, but really, until the borders reopen, there is nothing he can do.

    (Response: There is not the same problem on the East coast. Cruises to Canadian ports from US ports (and elsewhere) are canceled there too …but since there is no US territory above that, the US-based ships are just gone until 2022. As for Vancouver/Victoria, I agree with you …and said so earlier ..that many ships will still come because of our scenic beauty and attractive ports. BUT we could indeed lose SOME to the direct US to US routing (no hassles with Customs, no Immigration, US $ all the way through) and remember, EACH arrival and departure contributes $3 MILLION to the BC economy! That’s nothing to sneeze at anytime ..but especially after the major hurt our hospitality industry has suffered in 2020 and 2021. And there was absolutely no intelligent reason the feds could not allow technical stops to prevent what is now going on in Congress …. and there was absolutely no intelligent reason Horgan should not have fought for that and been much more active/supportive of the industry. h.o)

  17. Billie says:

    Just wondering where you get your information from, who informed you that Horgan did not fight for the technical stops? I can say that I heard from a source that he did fight for the stops, and it would have as much meaning as you saying he did not fight for the stops, how do you know how much he fought for the stops? I would bet he wanted the cruise ships to stop to workaround the law, why wouldn’t he? But again, he has no control over the borders or Trudeau. How do you know how hard or not he fought for the stops? Trudeau is in the driver’s seat, Horgan is not.

    (Response: Absolutely right…the feds have “control” over border issues …but I sure hope you are not suggesting that means premiers and provinces can’t and don’t have a DUTY to speak their piece loud and clear if anything impacts their province. Pipelines are a federal responsibility too …but that sure didn’t stop Horgan from mouthing his opinions on that! Or spend millions of dollars fighting what is clearly Ottawa’s jurisdiction! Yet … even though the US waiver legislation made the news in March, I couldn’t find ANY news coverage of Horgan (or any other BC cabinet member) suggesting, advocating, supporting “technical stops” for cruise ships…. until MAY, when it was too late and only after the Victoria Harbour Authority brought it up… https://bc.ctvnews.ca/could-cruise-ships-bypass-b-c-premier-faces-questions-over-u-s-proposal-1.5433283. Horgan sounded like he hadn’t even heard of the idea…. let alone advocated for it. Where was the BC government???? In fact … everyone should read this Palmer column from last MARCH … exposing how foolishly and incompetently the NDP government handled the cruise ship threat: https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-on-threat-to-cruise-ships-tourism-minister-appeared-to-be-in-the-dark. And now, BC businesses could lose millions of dollars worth of business. h.o)

  18. Stu de Baker says:

    Chalk and cheese, night and day, apples and oranges; what ever you want to call it, still the misinformation abounds, but at least Steve Cooley gets it.

    “The American laws that apply here go back to the 1800s” … but they do still serve an important role in preventing cargo ships from China, India, Panama, Liberia etc …paying puny wages to their crews … from carrying US cargo from, say, San Diego or Los Angeles, to Seattle, Portland etc …or from Detroit, New York to Miami, Houston etc.”

    The PVSA (1886) governing passengers and the MMA (1920) governing cargo (cabotage) are two distinctly different Acts, only the former “applies here” and lumping the two into the same sentence, is “off topic” and confusing to the KIR layperson.

    This time next year, look back at this archived blog and see just how knee jerk, sky is falling and fear mongering it all was. Keeps HO and BMCQ out from under the Mrs’ feet though, don’t it?

    D. M. Johnston:
    “Cruise ships did not bring a lot of business to the city except for high end jewelry stores, offering items easily concealed through American costumes.” And; “The big money was servicing the cruise ships themselves, fuel, provisions, waste, and minor repairs on a schedule that has to operate like clockwork.

    Only a smallish portion of the nearly one billion dollars the ships leave in Vancouver annually, is spent on provisioning. Most passengers cruising from/to Vancouver spend three or more days in Vancouver and surrounds, dropping dumpster loads of loot on accommodations, attractions and secondary travel. One just needs to examine hotel rates tripling during cruise season, to understand the golden goose that it is.

    Butchart Gardens survives on cruise dollars and I suspect your little business served many cruise passengers, outside the 9am to 5pm Sunday port time.

    BMCQ:
    Supplying bits to the tune “$ 7 Million Dollars of B.C. Union Made Marine Product world wide, we supply Marine Wholesale, Retail, Ship Chandlers, Ship Yards, the Canadian Coast Guard, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Coast Guard,” (why the need for constant self aggrandizement?) and random X-ray components, doesn’t make you the absolute authority on Maritime Law. Just sayin’.

  19. Billie says:

    When the Governor of Alaska says that the order will be rescinded as soon as the border is open, that is pretty clear that the cruise ships will return. Just because you didn’t read about it doesn’t mean anything didn’t happen behind the scenes. You know what they say about people who assume…., anyway, I believe that law (Jones act) will be rescinded one day (sooner rather than later) because there is not a lot of advantage, if any to the US, the only countries it helps are foreign countries, and this pandemic/closing of the border has shown the US a vulnerability in their economy. The cruise ships will be back, don’t worry.

    (Response: Well, I would expect a Premier who is no shy wallflower would VOICE his objections to ANY federal action that could harm any BC $3 Billion a year industry. He has never been shy on other federal jurisdictional matters … why so quiet on this one! POLITICS? The NDP’s anti-American and anti-cruise ship base? Or just a blunder? h.o)

  20. Stu de Baker says:

    I’ve still not had my question answered; how would a “technical stop” be of any benefit to Canada?

    And here’s another issue; “Because Canada not only banned the ships/passengers from our ports … we also banned them from even stopping in BC waters, anchoring for four hours off shore, letting no passengers/crew off or on, taking no supplies on … just a “technical stop” long enough to satisfy US shipping laws.”

    A slight nit here but ships were not banned from our ports; they were banned from entering Canadian waters. An important distinction.

    But anyway…
    Another ill-informed comment highlighting the lack of understanding of maritime law, Transport Canada regulations or Canadian entry laws. If it satisfies US shipping laws, then it triggers Canadian laws. Entering Canadian waters engages the Pacific Pilotage Authority and there is no way they are going to waive that requirement. The instant the anchor touches bottom, CBSA is automatically involved, bringing with them, all laws and regulations for entry to Canada. Full and complete passenger manifests with all personal information on everyone aboard, 24 hours before entry, OR a CBSA boarding with the words “passports, please.”

    “Innocent passage” under the Law of the Sea Convention, might have presented a work around, but even then, there would have been challenges with cruise ships.

    Nope, a “technical stop” brings a very slippery slope of precedents, not unlike the ones you cite by banning entry of cruise ships in the first place.

    The status quo will return and you’ll just need to find another pot to stir.

    (Response: There are none so blind as he who will not see. “how would a “technical stop” be of any benefit to Canada?” Well, had Canada allowed US cruise ships to do technical stops, there would NEVER have been any need, any reason, any attention by Congress to the cruise ships’ and Alaska’s Canada-caused dilemma OR a need for way around such a stupid action by Trudeau, without Horgan ranting to the rafters (You know, like on Trans Mountain) to protect such a lucrative BC golden egg. It would have been a total non issue in the US. Instead Trudeau/Horgan blundered and opened up a WHOLE CAN OF WORMS … for absolutely NO good reason. As for your attempt to suggest that even technical stops could not have worked, due to existing laws etc, you’re being disingenuous. You know full well a Cabinet Order granting temporary waiver could have dealt with that nicely … and even if Canada insisted on being given a list of passengers, that would not have prevented the ships from completing their journeys, while keeping Canadians totally safe …and avoiding a total Trudeau/Horgan-created MESS. h.o)

  21. BMCQ says:

    D.M.J

    Interesting and insightful .

    Thanks

  22. NVG says:

    D.M.J. “…. if the Americans change their laws and cruise ships do not need to stop at Canadian ports, well I can see retaliation.”

    Do you mean Trudeau would cut off US registered tug-barge-goods Winter traffic route, the Inside passage, from the lower 40’s to Alaska.

  23. Stu de Baker says:

    Well Harvey, at least we agree on one thing:
    “There are none so blind as he who will not see.”
    Or he who refuses to open his eyes. And almost as blind is he who has tunnel vision.

    The rest of it, well you think you are stirring a pot but it is a colander with holes the size of golf balls. The amount of deflection clearly shows you and most on here, have no clue to the volume and depth of intermingled national and international laws involved and yet you expect the same bungling politicians to wave a magic wand. You’ve found yourself in deeper water than the Juan de Fuca a canyon.

    NVG;
    “Do you mean Trudeau would cut off US registered tug-barge-goods Winter traffic route, the Inside passage, from the lower 40’s to Alaska.”
    Again, that goes beyond a US-Canada issue, because International Law precludes that happening.

    BMCQ;
    I’m still getting a good chuckle out of your claim to supply “$ 7 Million Dollars of B.C. Union Made Marine Product world wide, we supply Marine Wholesale, Retail, Ship Chandlers, Ship Yards, the Canadian Coast Guard, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Coast Guard.”

    7 million dollars spent by those outrageous spenders is a pittance, when the USCG will drop nearly $1,000 on half a dozen doorstops. Assuming you are talking tungsten, even small amounts of that Chinese product would draw seven million out of any government agency in short order. Thanks for the daily laugh.

    HO;
    Thank you for a week of good entertainment, found in this one.

  24. BMCQ says:

    STU –

    You said it yourself with your comments about the marine industry, there happens to be profit in that $ 7 Million manufactured and distributed in the marine industry, that is only one industry we are involved in .

    You spoke about “outrageous spenders”, that was your claim, do you not think there might be a profit in that $ 7 Million ? Think about that for just a minute .

    I suggest YOU then spend a few minutes your Abacus, calculate what you might think a fair profit might be for that $ 7 Mill and then get back to me .

    Will you still be chuckling ?

    Yes my good friend we are doing all right considering .

    I hate to be crass but I think that is the only response that might register with you .

    Why be so critical of our host, it is one thing to disagree with good reason and support documentation but you just simply spew out anger and hate, I suggest you ask yourself why ?

    Harvey provides a wonderful Public Service and whether we agree with him or disagree with him he deserves our thanks and respect .

    BTW

    It was pointed out to me that the Van Sun Vaughn Palmer Column I posed yesterday was not a good format . my apologies .

    https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/vaughn-palmer-height-of-hubris-allowed-cruise-ship-bill-to-pass-b-c-by

  25. Not Sure says:

    I am the only one that does this? When Harvey posts on a topic that I am clueless about, I go googling. I typed in “should the pvsa be repealed”

    I was lucky as the first site I went to because of its intriguing title turned out to have plenty of information. There were dozens of other articles if you are so inclined but this was enough.

    https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2771503-the-pvsa-is-anachronistic-counterproductive-and-stupid-and-should-be-repealed/

    This is just a discussion thread but all of the people commenting seem to be familiar with the law. The thread is from Feb 7, a couple of days after Canada extended the ban and well before Mike Lee’s proposed bills.

    The discussion of the PVSA has been going on for years. In the thread there is link to a 2017 article and another to a 1998 Senate committee hearing. I admit to not reading the senate committee (I am not completely crazy) nor did I spend a lot of time doing careful reading as I mostly skimmed and scrolled but here are a couple of highlights at least for me.

    The Passenger part of the law is important because it deals with all sorts of vessels not just cruise ships.

    One quote: “As mentioned consistently, the cruise industry doesn’t want the PVSA to be changed!! And, as the Biden Administration has already stated, they support the Jones Act and the PVSA”

    The cruise lines have never shown an interest in repealing the law.

    Read chengkp75 who seems to think the law will not be changed and gives plenty of reasons. To be honest, the thread is six pages long. I didn’t bother going past page one so maybe somebody else made a convincing argument to the contrary.

    This is not to say that the law won’t be changed. But if this debate has been going on for years, I don’t think Canada’s decision during a pandemic is the motivating factor. Maybe Mike Lee is looking to score political points. I googled him and found this article.
    https://www.deseret.com/2021/4/15/22370306/sen-mike-lee-reelection-republican-challengers-2024-primary-election

    And this is not to say we shouldn’t vent away at Horgan or more appropriately Trudeau if you want. All good politics for the next election cycle. But I am wondering if it will still be an issue. (Like how we gnashed our teeth over the first day of phone registration and the one pop up clinic fiasco and the first month of the rollout when we are now running smoothly and well ahead of even our wildest expectations back in February.)

    Bottom Line: Stu is right. This is a way more complicated topic than some of us think. Despite my research I still feel ignorant.

    (Response: This would actually be amusing … if the implications were not so dangerous for BC and Canada’s interests. An entire essay based on “”should the pvsa be repealed?”. A topic Americans might want to consider and discuss … especially US protectionists, US nationalists and US tourist promoters … but why the hell would ANY Canadian … knowing the BILLIONS of dollars such a move could cost Canadian ports in lost landings, port charges, maritime fees, BC business/suppliers, passenger spending, tourism … even HINT it may be worth reconsidering???? Personally, for the reasons I’ve already stated, I doubt the cruise lines would cut Canada out … because our ports and scenery are top notch! My point is Horgan should have loudly advocated and Trudeau should have allowed technical stops, to avoid giving the Americans ANY reason to even consider …or re-consider …the topic! Now we have a new law allowing ships to bypass Canada temporarily …and another proposed to allow them to do that permanently….a totally unnecessary problem created by Trudeau/Horgan’s blundering! And remember, even if a FEW ships decide to try and promote the new “direct” US/Alaska option … EACH bypass of Canadian ports will lose us more than $3 million per ship! h.o)

  26. Stu de Baker says:

    It’s interesting how many people, when they think no one in the group knows anything about a given topic, can wind everyone up with a great story. I once had a good pal who could make up absolutely convincing and believable stuff on any subject. Subjects he himself knew nothing about but others knew less.

    Such is the case here; no one cares about history, facts, depth of detail or related complications and possible consequences of this narrow-minded debate.

    Well except Not Sure that is, because he refuses to gooble de gook and seeks truthful reassurance.

    Though I know it will do no good here, at least I know he will have educated himself. Not bad for a lowly teacher, huh?

    While cruise critic is just another social media site with a singular focus, the articles linked are good ones.

    I spend too much time with another group; professional mariners who, though biased, also have real experienced input and reliable data going back centuries at sea.

    https://forum.gcaptain.com/

    A most fascinating place to hang out during such events as the sinking of El Faro, the Ever Given in the Suez and US warship collisions. Has anyone here even heard of the USS Fitzgerald?

    A couple of non-amateur articles on the current topic.

    https://gcaptain.com/utah-senator-lee-introduces-bills-to-repeal-the-passenger-vessel-services-act/

    https://gcaptain.com/opinion-the-love-boat-american-style/

    With a logical point made by on merchant mariner, back when the Alaska Tourism Restoration Act and waivers were first hinted at. It was notably not important to the politicians, because they were too focused on votes and a quick fix;
    “Perhaps there is a deal to made here? In exchange for your waiver, you have to hire a certain percentage of American Mariners. You know we are going to be thrown under the bus, so we might as well get something from this situation.”

    The continued rhetoric, by the same 3 or 4 participants on here, no matter the topic, is a reminder of the dangers of accepting only what the leader says.

    BMCQ;
    Harvey is a big boy with enough street smarts and scrums to defend himself, without needing cheerleaders, whose self-motivation is staying on the good side, because this is the only available venue.

    (Response: A lot of deflection, spin, distraction, anecdotes, references … ALL I believe designed to divert us away from the real topic here: the disastrous handling of the Alaska cruise issue by Trudeau and his BC henchman Horgan. Trudeau I can almost understand: the total shutdown of access, including technical stops, doesn’t affect Quebec’s cruise industry …so he and his government probably didn’t give it much thought: shut it ALL down. But British Columbians’ interests should have been loudly enunciated and protected by Horgan and his NDP government …reaching out much more to Alaska and US leaders and challenging the federal handling of the matter. The file was BLUNDERED by Horgan … and I’m not surprised you try to divert attention from that. h.o)

  27. BMCQ says:

    Some here may be “Not Sure” of much in life, in my opinion those “People Kind” would be ideally suited to b e Life Long Pandering Politicians or Life Long Civil Servants .

    Sometimes one just needs to consider the facts and make up their mind to make a decision .

    Harvey – Response to “Not Sure”

    A great response even if I do not agree with al of it, it is plausible and makes sense .

    The key phrase in your response ?

    “A totally unnecessary problem created by Canadian PM Justin and Premier Horgan’s
    Blundering” .

    NOT ONE of us here regardless of our Political Brand can “Spin” this argument any other way . To do so is simply just silly and disingenuous .

    “Facts DO Matter” .

    I will not comment in any way on the attached, please read and make up your own mind, it is another point of view to consider .

    https://theorca.ca/resident-pod/cruising-for-a-bruising/

  28. Not Sure says:

    I don’t know Harvey. This is your response to me.

    “This would actually be amusing … if the implications were not so dangerous for BC and Canada’s interests. An entire essay based on “”should the pvsa be repealed?”. A topic Americans might want to consider and discuss … especially US protectionists, US nationalists and US tourist promoters … but why the hell would ANY Canadian … even HINT it may be worth reconsidering???”

    A simple “Thank you for the information. It IS a complicated topic. But Horgan didn’t do a very good job on this file” would have been sufficient.

    First off. There are tricks to google. To narrow down the search, be as specific as you can. I was not interested in the pvsa as such. I wanted to know its pros and cons. And because I am worried about it being repealed I went with that. It is not a topic I want to discuss. But my goodness don’t we want to know anything about about the risks after YOU raised the threat of Mike Lee’s legislation.

    Second, did I say anything in my “essay” about reconsidering the legislation. I said the topic has been around for years but I emphasized the points about why it wouldn’t be changed, trying to ease people’s minds but of course that doesn’t fit the narrative of “Horgan sucks”.

    Third, Horgan could have done a better job – at a minimum showing some empathy for Alaska – with his comments on this topic.

    Fourth, in the link I provided they did talk about technical stops. According to one poster, a technical stop was breaking the law. As I understand that had Canada offered technical stops, congress would still have had to pass a temporary exemption for that to happen. It is not up to Canada to break an American law.

    Fifth so even if Canada had been as amenable as possible, somebody like Mike Lee would still have wondered why not make this permanent. Remember this is not the first time the pvsa has been under discussion. And covid has given all of us plenty of opportunity to consider a host of changes. Is Mike Lee’s proposed legislation retaliatory or just a continuation of a decades old debate.

    Sixth, I am still surprised that you would mock me for taking the time to research a topic and trying to present the information in as objective a manner as possible.

    (Response: I did not mock you at all. I just found it amusing ..and confusing …that anyone in BC or Canada would be interested in the history/state of the discussion of the issue over the last 100 years in the US. The ONLY thing that should concern us regarding this matter is the protection of BC jobs and the BC economy. And neither Trudeau not Horgan did a very good job on this file in that regard…. and our already battered hospitality industry could pay an unnecessary added price for that h.o)

  29. Stu de Baker says:

    It’s ok Harvey, I have short term memory issues as well.

    Response to Not Sure, just now:
    “I just found it amusing ..and confusing …that anyone in BC or Canada would be interested in the history/state of the discussion of the issue over the last 100 years in the US.”

    Response to Steve Cooley, June 15:
    “The American laws that apply here go back to the 1800s… but they do still serve an important role”

    If a person is mocked, it is up to him/her to decide not the mocker. “Oh c’mon, what are you on about, that caning didn’t hurt you.”

    The problem with mocking is it can be covert and easily denied, which is the case here, as I too feel Mr. N.S. was mocked. And by you mocking him, your follower joins in;
    “Some here may be “Not Sure” of much in life, in my opinion those “People Kind” would be ideally suited to b e Life Long Pandering Politicians or Life Long Civil Servants .” Probably more aptly defined as passive aggressive, not mockery.

    (Response: Again, spin, spin, spin… looks to me like yet another attempt to distract, deflect and divert …. to AVOID addressing Horgan’s dismal FAILURE on the cruise ship file …which could now cost BC billions. h.o)

  30. BMCQ says:

    Stu

    Thank you so much for the advice but guess what ?

    Harvey doess not always agree with me, do a little research and see where I accused Harvey of contracting TDS, I tried to impress upon him that the Trump Policies almost to a TEE were better for the world, the USA, Canada, and Mexico, even NATO contrary to reports from CKNW and other left leaning media outlets .

    I attempted to convince Harvey that I DO NOT care if DJT is boorish, rude, impolite, moronic at times and even “Orange but he would have none of it and we both chose not to give in .

    I have long ago proven that I do not need to make any effort whatsoever to be on Harvey’s or anyone else “Good Books, the facts speak for themselves, I am honest, forthright, I have strong character and I have integrity . At least that is what my mother once told me .

    So please DO NOT attempt to put Harvey on the same team as BMCQ, Harvey might quit the Blog, then where would we be ?

    I have an idea, YOU seem to be quite fixated on BMCQ, at one time you were more than likely a “Hall Monitor”, why would you care what I say if I am so far off base and indeed “Whacked Out’ on ALL issues you see differently than me ?

    For your good health and peace of mind i suggest you simply just “Cancel” BMCQ and then ‘Scroll On By” when you see any outlandish and moronic post i happen to throw up .

    After all, you have already proven me to be an imbecile several times over, what could you have to gain by putting yourself through the tedium day after day ?

    A discussion, argument, or a debate are worthwhile pursuits but name calling and attempting to play the “Gotchya Card” says more about Stu than BMCQ, don’t you think ?

    Or are YOU “Not Sure” ?

    Hey, that sort of sounds confusing does it not ?

  31. Gilbert says:

    I agree that PM Trudeau probably didn’t think too much about shutting down the cruise line industry in BC. There are lots of socialists in Vancouver who will vote for him no matter what. On the other hand, Quebec, the province he really cares about, is delighted that he’s willing to let them call themselves a nation. Unlike his father, he has no principles and is desperate for votes.

    (Response: The problem is BC has such a weak media presence now in the nation’s capital. It’s too bad that BCTV no longer really exists. If they did ..and still had an effective Ottawa bureau raising issues of concern to British Columbians, Trudeau would at least be ASKED about his blundering on the cruise ship Alaska file … and, frankly, I would have had a field day going after him, pressing him on why why, why he screwed this issue up so badly! h.o)

  32. NVG says:

    (Response: Again, spin, spin, spin… looks to me like yet another attempt to distract, deflect and divert …. to AVOID addressing Horgan’s dismal FAILURE on the cruise ship file …which could now cost BC billions. h.o)

    Interesting h.o., your response, above, to Stu de Baker, is a classic Catch-22

  33. Real Noooze... says:

    OMG Harvey, get out the editing pencil. BMCQ and other regulars on your site are little more then bloviators (def: speaking endlessly with no end in sight). The juvenile tit-for-tat among some of the posters undermines the credibility of the site…but good on ya’ for making some good points.

    (Response: I try to allow for broad comment if they’re close to the topic of the Blog. But yours is not the only comment I’ve had lately especially privately, about Commenters going off topic or far too long …so I urge everyone to keep on point…and edit yourself down, so I don’t have to cut. h.o)

  34. Not Sure says:

    Well, seeing that I have been talked about…

    H.O. says, “I did not mock you at all. I just found it amusing that anyone in BC would be interested …
    Definition of mock: “tease or laugh at in a scornful manner.”

    Actually though I wasn’t bothered by my being mocked. Worse things have been said about me. It was why you were mocking me that surprised me.

    I was surprised that you found it amusing that I would take the time to research …

    Didn’t you research background information when you were reporting?

    And while we are on vocabulary. BMCQ said about your response to me: “A great response even if I do not agree with all of it, it is plausible and makes sense”

    Plausible does mean possible and believable but its connotation is usually “superficially fair, reasonable, or valuable but often wrong or misleading”

    So faint praise. Calling something plausible is where conspiracy theories are born.

    And before you accuse me of spinning and detracting and diverting from the horrible job that Horgan and Trudeau have made of this situation, I am not. You can blame them all you want. That is your prerogative. I am just saying that this story is more complicated than that but clearly there doesn’t appear to be an appetite to consider those complexities.

    It leads to this Harvey. BMCQ again:

    “A totally unnecessary problem created by Canadian PM Justin and Premier Horgan’s
    Blundering” . NOT ONE of us here regardless of our Political Brand can “Spin” this argument any other way . To do so is simply just silly and disingenuous . Facts DO Matter”.

    Everything he said before the last sentence is an opinion. But hey facts do matter. (and now I am wondering if even that is debatable.)

    (Response: You make my point for me: I was critical of your remarks…but not “scornful”, so not “mocking”. And again, I find it really interesting that you spend 12 of the 13 paragraphs in your Comment on all kinds of others/extraneous matters … UNRELATED to the subject of the Blog: Horgan and Trudeau’s blundering. YES, sure looks like spin, deflection and diversion AWAY from Horgan/Trudeau to me. And then you write “this story is more complicated than that”: perhaps, and of course I can’t help but wonder if you ever expressed that view when the Liberals were in power and Horgan/NDP attacked any variety of ideas/stances taken by Christy Clark … especially ones where BC stood lose billions of dollars in business/revenues! h.o)

  35. BMCQ says:

    Real Nooze

    I just opened the blog and read your comment and I also read where it appears Harvey is getting private e mails concerning my posts .

    I can take a hint, I will take a break from Keeping It Real for a little while, but I am very sure that with regular thoughtful, insightful, and informative contributors like you and Stu, the blog not miss BMCQ one little bit .

    I will however continue to read KIR while I am away, I look forward to reading your quality posts, you will be a great addition .

    Perhaps I should get my wife to check me into Blogosphere Rehab, perhaps I can learn to be more like you .

    “Not Sure”

    Plausible – reasonable, credible, compelling, potent, influential, convincing, weighty, and effective to just list a few .

    I must ask, what am I missing ?

    (Response: You seem to always assume that when others criticize Commenters for straying off topic or going too long that it is you they are referring to … only. It’s simply not correct: we get good debates going …and numerous contributors get carried away with long and/or rambling anecdotes/comparisons/rebuttals. I personally feel those who don’t like long treatises should just skip to the Response ..which, after all, is the best part anyway ….in my humble opinion, of course. h.o)

  36. NVG says:

    (Response: You make my point for me: I was critical of your remarks…but not “scornful”, so not “mocking”.)

    Just saying

    What we need here is a moderator, one who is not critical of remarks and to act as a neutral participant in a debate.

  37. nonconfidencevote says:

    Note to Stu (Stew?) and BMCQ…..

    500 words or less…..( please less )

  38. Not Sure says:

    OK, Harvey, let’s try to see where we agree and disagree.

    1. Canada extended the ban on cruise ships on Feb. 5. I think we agree there. Discussion ends if not.

    2. Where there may be a problem is on the decision not to allow technical stops. Here is what Transport Canada said at the time.

    In a statement Friday, Transport Canada told the Times Colonist cruise vessels in Canadian waters pose a risk to the country’s health-care systems. “At this time, technical stops for cruise ships with passengers are not allowed. Should the COVID-19 pandemic sufficiently improve to allow the resumption of these activities, the Minister of Transport has the ability to rescind the interim orders,” a spokesman said. “The Government of Canada will continue to evaluate the situation and make changes as necessary to ensure the health and safety of all Canadians.”
    https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/u-s-politicians-push-to-revive-alaska-cruises-with-victoria-as-technical-stop

    Now we can debate all day on this decision but I am going to take the statement at its word: not allowing technical stops was to protect Canadians. And they could rescind the decision when it was safe to do so

    3. That wasn’t good enough for Alaskan politicians and they went to Congress to have a temporary exemption from the PVSA which they got.

    Let’s stop for a minute. Unless you want to argue that technical stops were not a risk to Canadians, then what has Trudeau done wrong. And if he hasn’t done anything wrong what was Horgan supposed to do.

    4. Horgan was pretty flippant and not very sympathetic towards Alaska. I agree.

    5. Mike Lee has introduced legislation to make the temporary exemptions permanent by repealing the PVSA.

    Unless you are arguing that technical stops were not a threat to Canadians then the only blunder that anybody has made is Horgan’s flippancy towards Alaska’s difficulties. You are drawing a straight line from Horgan’s actions to Mike Lee’s actions.

    I guess that is plausible but given the history of the PVSA and that there are some Americans that have always been critics of the law, I am not so sure we can draw that straight line. It is weird because he comes from Utah and the PVSA would have zero affect on his state. Often the introduction of a bill is just a lot of political theatre to impress a base. He did this on his own. Does he have the support and the will to work on this?

    Anyway just my perspective.

    (On a related note. Canada is now second in the world in single doses at 66% and at the rate we are going could be in the 40-50% range fully vaccinated when the latest border crossing extension ends on July 21. The US is slowing down at 53% single although they are 42% fully vaccinated Any thoughts on what that means to the border opening sooner than September.)

    (Response: It really surprises me how willingly you accept and go along with statements/spin by politicians and their hired hands in their bureaucracy. For example, you quote Transport Canada’s reasoning and then add “Now we can debate all day on this decision but I am going to take the statement at its word: not allowing technical stops was to protect Canadians.” Why?Let’s analyze their position: technical stops “pose a risk to the country’s health care system”. But they don’t say how … if the ships don’t land, don’t take on or drop off any passengers/crew or any supplies? Let me help them… Maybe by the boarding of Canadian navigation pilots? How few would that be! Really worth a total ban that puts at risk billions of dollars of BC’s economy? If Transport Canada thinks that’s so risky … where has Transport Canada been as THOUSANDS of air passengers (not to mention the crews) were arriving DAILY from India and China in several Canadian cities or flying between Canadian cities … many of them actually carrying Covid??? So quiet!! THOUSANDS of people potentially exposed daily to Covid in crammed tubes from Delhi, Tokyo, Shanghai …. no problem for Transport Canada there!! Transport Canada’s “explanation” for backing the Trudeau’s government blunder is like someone closing a window on the Titanic … as water gushes in nearby through a 10-feet wide gash in the hull. The PRIMARY loyalty of most bureaucrats in Canada (unlike the US) is to the government in power … not the public, so I take everything they say with that in mind…and everyone else should too! h.o)

  39. r says:

    As far as i know all crew and passengers have to be vaccinated before departing sooo…

    (Response: Actually, not sure about departures out of California or Washington state, but I believe Florida has passed a law prohibiting cruise lines from denying unvaccinated passengers boarding. But, if the West Coast/Alaska passengers are ALL vaccinated, and the crew are ALL vaccinated, and any navigation pilots are ALL vaccinated … would seem pretty safe to me … should be enough to meet Transport Canada’s very selective “concerns” list …and MUCH safer than planes/passengers flying in from overseas. h.o)

  40. Stu de Baker says:

    “I believe Florida has passed a law prohibiting cruise lines from denying unvaccinated passengers boarding.”

    And you scold others for deflection.

    Plunking Ron DeSantis in the middle of this discussion is to side with an act of “BLUNDER” you lead with and denounce here.

    DeSantos can pass as many Bills as he can think of, the bottom line is, neither he, nor the Florida Government has any jurisdiction over cruise ships. Ninguno! “Political buffoonery” was one of the tamer reactions.

    That little puff of smoke before the mirror just erodes your credibility on this issue and further solidifies my belief you are ill informed on this file. But it makes good type, don’t it?

    Nonconfidencevote…116 words.
    I’ll roll the unused over to another or take the pay in lieu of.

    (Response: Did you even read the Comment I was responding to in this specific case? The contributor wrote “As far as i know all crew and passengers have to be vaccinated before departing”. My response explained that is not the case in all states … and I provided EVIDENCE of where … didn’t even mention, as you did, De Santis or De Santos. Once again you are deflecting, twisting … to divert attention from the real problem: Trudeau and Horgan’s blundering. And simply trolling … as usual. h.o)

  41. Not Sure says:

    “It really surprises me how willingly you accept and go along with statements/spin by politicians,”

    LOL I surprise you a lot.

    It actually doesn’t matter what I believe about Transport Canada’s statement. I was merely laying out the steps to clearly understand your position. Now I know, I think.

    You appear to be saying this:

    A technical stop is NOT that big a risk to our health system, at least not risky enough to possibly endanger the $2B cruise industry: therefore we should have allowed technical stops. Transport Canada (Trudeau) is not following the science or is willfully lying.

    I got nothing to offer one way or another. Sorry.

  42. Gilbert says:

    Let me add a little information with regard to a previous comment. If we want to say Governor DeSantis has no jurisdiction over cruise lines, we should say “ninguna jurisdicción” because “jurisdicción” is feminine. By the way, I believe the family name DeSantis is Italian.

    (Response: Interesting. But you’re helping Stu deflect and divert attention from the REAL problem: Trudeau and Horgan’s BLUNDERINMG in handling the cruise ship file … which could cost BC BILLIONS! 🙂 h.o)

  43. Jack Bueller says:

    All the Federal government did today was confirm their prior announcement from last week that fully vaccinated Canadian citizens, permanent residents, and any allowed to enter Canada right now under exemptions, will not be required to complete the hotel qurantine if they test negative.

    Both Canada and the U.S. have extended “non-essential” travel restrictions until July 21. There was no plan or details released today by the Feds for how or when they will open the Air OR Land border and allow fully vaccinated Americans to enter Canada for supposed “non-essential” travel or tourism.

    There’s only 2 months left until September from the current extension to July 21. I don’t think the future is looking bright. They keep moving the goalposts. And this fully vaccinated American here hasn’t been able to enter for over a year now. This is so frustrating! They can’t even give us a plan or tell us when. A border re-opening for even the fully vaxxed is looking hopeless now.

    (Response: I disagree. Slowly but surely the border reopening …both by air and by road … is moving in the right direction. Barring any escalation of Covid cases due to variants, there will be more “reopening” steps in July. I have travel planned to the US at the end of September …and still expect to be able to do it. h.o)

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