Keeping it Real…

66 responses so far ↓

• 1 Doug P // Nov 11, 2009 at 2:44 am

  Mr. Oberfeld,

  Until this moment I actually thought you were an educated intelligent man!

  How dare you compare supporting American Imperialism in Afghanistan with fighting the Nazi regime in WW-Two

  The Americans , supported by puppet Harper, are there to clear the way for an oil pipeline, to feed western oil addiction….not to fight the ‘evil’ Taliban.

  Wake up Harvey…you’re going senile!!!

  (Response: Typical radical left anti-Americanism…and a juvenile response to an alternative opinion. Imperialism? What is there in that hellhole that the U.S. or anybody could possible want to exploit? Opium? There is no oil there! In fact, I doubt the U.S. knew Afghanistan existed until 9-11 and the world learned about Al Qaeda/Taliban training camps etc., exporting THEIR imperialism to the free world. The Allies were wrong in going into Iraq ..but just ask MOST Afghans and they will tell you how grateful they are that we are in Afghanistan SAVING them from the murderous rule of the Taliban nutbars. You might like to abandon them, but I would not. h.o)

• 2 Kim // Nov 11, 2009 at 3:45 am

  H.O. I respect your opinion, and respectfully disagree. We entered into WW2 when the nazi’s layed seige to Britain and our commonwealth needed our precious supplies including our precious supply of brave, willing men and women, military and civilian. We stayed to halt an invading force in the entirety of western Europe. All of these people were the parent countries of many of our people. They fought for freedom for people who understood freedoms in the same way that we did. They fought Fascism.

  The difference here is complex. The Afghan people have been occupied by foriegn superpowers for as long as some of them remember. The Taliban was funded, trained and mentored by American black ops to resist the commies. Then, when they got good at it, the American’s realised the monster they had created could get embarrassing. Plus, pipelines were looking promising and the privatization of “security forces” and reconstruction contracts was becoming BIG BUSINESS.

  This is the future of GDP according to neocons. Canada has participated enthusiastically in this form of disaster capitalism and I fully expect announcement forthcoming soon of Canada’s need to “augment” it’s military forces with blackwater style contractors.

  As a former military member, a former military wife and the mother of a reservist, I will be attending services tomorrow. I will mourn with the rest of the country for the sacrifices made with honour, for the “survivors” with disabilities, mental anguish, gulf war syndrome and everyone else, the walking wounded.

  You want me to sacrifice my son’s life for a puppet government that offers no democratic platform propped up by the likes of Halliburton and Blackwater? I don’t see the honour in that. I need more convincing than that. Call me undemocratic if you like, an enemy combatant if you must, that’s my opinion.

  (Response: You are right about our entry in WW II … but maybe millions of lives could have been saved if we had stopped Hitler earlier. Likewise the Islamic terrorists who have declared war on our Western society, our values, our liberties … fewer of our kids will die if we stop them BEFORE they start blowing us up at home. Withdrawal now will make us only more vulnerable. h.o.)

• 3 Doug P // Nov 11, 2009 at 3:46 am

  I’m not radical left, I just recognize the truth.

  You talk like you’ve been to Afghanistan and talked to people on the street….which is bullshit and self-effacing nonsense.

  Correct, there’s no oil there, but it’s a major potential pipeline route to move oil out of the middle east.

  What do you think? the Taliban a.k.a. Nazis are going to take over the world and remove our freedoms here in the west.

  If we quit offering up our children’s lives for multi -nationals corps , poor old you won’t be able to blog anymore.

  Seriously, do you think Stephen Harper gives a fiddlers shit about the poor common people in Afghanistan. He doesn’t give a shit about the poor common people in Canada. Wake up!

  DO SOME HOMEWORK BEFORE CALL ME BACK .

  You’re brainwashed fellow!

  Doug

• 4 the dude // Nov 11, 2009 at 4:00 am

  1st: “very old turbanned Afghan man” …. “Afghanistan would be finished,” the grieving old man replied.
  a) how do we know what the old actually said? it was probably translated and adapeted for the bbc
  b) those people would be crazy to admit not being in favor of our troops occupying their co0untry. After all they livein a regime where when you say the wrong thing you might get killed on the spot and they haved grown up and live day to day seeing people being killed ‘on the spot’ for displaying the wrong political affiliation
  c) how many old afgan men were asked the same question and did not answer favoroubly and were edited out? how many old afgan men needed they ask that question before they got the propper answer with the proper efect?

  this is TV after all….

  2nd)”Make no mistake about it: MOST Afghans want us to stay; MOST fear the terror of the Taliban; MOST want us to succeed … .” How would you know? do you have a private phone line with most afgans? or an internet poll ‘most afgans’ can access that we dont know of? I think most would like us to get the ‘fuck’ out. To be able to live their lives the way they wish to live it, the way they always lived it.

  firther more I think most without saying it (for the reasons mentioned above) know that their country is being raped, pilaged and THEY understand it is over the control of Opium -> heroin.

  Yes. good old American Imperialism in action. War on drug in columbia… cocaine. War for freedom in iraq… Oil. War on the taliban… Opium.
  I think our presence there only serves to make us many, many more enemies and make us much more vulnerable in the long run to the point of being a nation that lives in fear like the USA.
  I think it is sad and deplorable that we have lost 133 of our canadian men for that “NON” cause.

  (Response: Readers of this blog know I have been very critical of the BBC ..but not even I would accuse them of falsely translating what people say in interviews. True I have not polled Afghans myself … but the fact they have almost the same voter turnout as us (shame on us!) in many parts despite death threats must indicate something. And who would really believe people there would PREFER to be terrorized by armed men who cut of fingers of those who vote; who kill teachers who educate women, who behead their opponents. How can we just turn our backs on them? h.o.)

• 5 Leah // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:03 am

  Harvey, respectfully…I couldn’t disagree with you more. To a degree, I agree with Doug re; equating Afghanistan with WWII is totally wrong.

  You can’t export or force our “democratic” way of life on a people who don’t want it. For those that do, it has to be fought for from inside, by those who want it more than life because chances are that’s what it’s going to cost them.

  Afghani women have stated they prefer the rule of the Taliban, when compared to the US and its allies support of the “mujahedeen fundamentalist, misogynist warlords” who fought against the Soviets in the eighties. Whether they will be ruled by one, the other, or a new regime is up to them…they’re the only ones who can change things. Perhaps the folks asking questions in Afghanistan need to venture farther afield, and ask people what they think about having Canada there…the answer might not be what everyone expects it to be.

  As for spending more Canadian lives in a country not fully motivated to make the changes they need to make from within – no, bring our people home. Afghanistan has cost far too many lives already, not only ours, but French, Russian, American, British, and now Canadian. Enough is enough already.

  (Response: Let me turn on you the question that was turned on me: how do you know ther people there don’t want democracy? What makes us believe that, apart from the ultra religious rightwingers, the rest of the ordinary population there are not just like us: they cherish the idea of freedom and living without fear or beatings or killings for not going along with orders handed out by an oppressive government? h.o)

• 6 Ray // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:15 am

  We (the west) have abandoned Afghanistan before, in fact in 1842 “we” were thrown out.

  http://history1800s.about.com/od/colonialwars/a/kabul1842.htm

  Underlying the “mission” this still looks like a colonial war. The Russians lost there and no outsider has ever won there. Not much to “win” anyway. Remember the heads of the Taliban attended a George Bush barbeque in Texas to discuss a oil pipeline as I remember. The Taliban eradicate poppy production but it’s bigger now than ever before. (Best to keep the under class in the U.S. stoned or they may give the central government trouble.)

  This is a poor country, attacking North America could be a little too much for them to take on, this isn’t like taking on Hitler and a modern economy. Rural Afghans are agrarian, closer to medieval than modern. We went to fight Al Qaeda and ended up fighting the Taliban. The so called democratic government is corrupt, and only controls Kabul. As in the 1800’s the only part of Afghanistan outsiders control is where they are standing with a gun.

  If we never catch Osama, what are we supposed to do, stay there forever? On 911 the instigators were mostly Saudi’s, no Taliban or Iraqis were involved. 100 barbaric terrorists can set up anywhere and create havoc for the west any time they want, to empty our treasuries fighting foreign wars can’t go on forever.

  Hard to protect your country from an army psychiatrist, and who’s to say another loose cannon isn’t working with U.S Air Force nukes.

  (Response: I have no fear that Afghanistan, even under the Taliban, would attack Canada. The problem is as you stated …they are VERY poor ..and that’s the problem: when Al Qaeda … brimming with Saudi and other “donors” MILLIONS make them an offer for land and infrastructure support for Islamaic training centers ..they will not refuse. And I also think it would be horrible for us to just abandon all those there who base their hope for freedom, dignity and basic civil rights on our ability to beat back the terror-drive Taliban. h.o)

• 7 the Dude // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:51 am

  Ok fairly you have been critical of the BBc in the past. but enough I think to recognise that the brits have troops also there and the BBc like the CBC would not air an afgan spiting on the floor when a foreign troop passes by, but those people being like they are and the culture in which they live in, when they dislike someone or something they spit on the floor. I imagine lots of spiting is going on right now in afganistan but yet you dont see i person spiting ever on TV…. (those people know better than doing it when you are looking too) is there not any regular afgan who is not a taliban who disagrees with whats happening in their country, province, city or town? why dont we ever see one on TV? only see ‘very old turbanned Afghan man’ almost elated to see us, so grateful for our presence (at least the camera presence. maybe they are doing self promo for a upcoming reality show) Those people they show as being in favor of the foreign occupensy seem so happy about it you almost think the camera is missing the shut of their tail waging.

  just like the olimpics, you dont hear much of the broken promises, or of the people’s great displeasure about many issues on national news. You only see smiling anchors with upbeat stories…. All is rosy all is fine

  Also how is it exactly that we would be tirning our back on those people?that statement I understand as if we were leaving them hanging, having broken a promise. We owe nothing to those people but yet accomodate and help them greatly with our immigration policies and thats where it should stop.

  (Response. Ok ..answer me this pls ..what would YOU do if we left and the Taliban started executing teachers who taught girls, people who supported democracy, doctors who had operated on women, and beat those who sent their female kids to school etc etc ? And how would you stop Al Qaeda from re-establishing itself on friendly territory? h.o)

• 8 the Dude // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:11 am

  h.o. when you reply “What makes us believe that, apart from the ultra religious rightwingers, the rest of the ordinary population there are not just like us: they cherish the idea of freedom and living without fear or beatings or killings for not going along with orders handed out by an oppressive government?”

  what make us beleive that, normal people people are not all like us: and recognise Jesus crist as our TRUE savior and realize that only thru him salvation comes?

  and in the early part of this century some imperialists were probalby heard saying: “what makes us beleive that those people (natives, africans, native south americans etc…) apart from thos with big feathery hats wopuld not be apreciative of recieving the tru revelation of Jesus christ?

  Really who among us would not beleive that? me? you?

• 9 Kim // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:14 am

  So, the very poor Afghani’s get an “offer they can’t refuse” from Al Qaeda, they will not refuse…why, if the deal from North America is reasonable, would they deal with terrorists? Is it because the west imposes IMF concessions on their public assets? Is it because they require the state to relenquish control of resources to multinational corporations? Why is Afghanistan sueing a Montreal corporation with reconstruction contracts?

  Add in the scandal of Canadian Forces trying to alert the politicians of torture imposed on prisoners passed from CF custody to Afghani police. These are Canadian Forces working with Geneva Convention protocols, expecting human rights to be respected. I wonder how it feels to realise that everything you thought you were fighting for is lip service?

  I don’t doubt the commitment of rank and file military, or their honour, I doubt the government has been honest in the objective. And as my son is so keen to serve, it is my duty and grave responsibility to ensure that the political reasoning for the mission is true and just, and I’m just not there.

  (Respo9nse: I really do apprecaite your concerns. But what happens if we withdraw? What happens to the peopel of Afghanistan, the women, the children/ What do we do when Al Qaeda emerges from its caves and hiding and is welcomed to establish its training grounds once more? What do we say when their “works” are brought to our shores with tragic consequences? I am NO FAN of war… but I realize sometimes Canadians have had to sacrifice to protect our freedom. h.o.)

• 10 Frank // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:16 am

  Doug P. et al really have no real idea or understanding of what is happening in the world except their idealistic dogmas. They need to travel and visit rather than the comfortable armchair idealism they wrap themselves in. (Read the stones in the Jewish Cemetaries in the Rhein Valley 1938/40.) Folks like Doug P. et al almost delivered the world to Hitler and Company. ( Ambassador to Britain Joseph Kennedy, fighting until replaced, urged Britain to ’surrender’ to Hitler). It is easy to criticize but harder to fight a good cause. Afghanistan is a world problem that must be solved but is about to get a lot worse. Iran and Pakistan are both neighbours. One wants nukes and the other has them. Who were the first to be shot, hung and killed by the Nazi and Communists? Why the very folks that ’supported’ their ideologies when their countries fell to the folks that took over. The Taliban will create another Cambodia. (The Khmer Rouge killed more people than the entire casualties lists of both sides in the Viet Nam war. And did it quicker and faster) It is very easy to be a critic from your own protected ‘bed’ rather than becoming proactive. One wonders what world Doug P et al see for the rest of the 21st century. Naive is nice but dead is worse.

  (Response: Exactly. Sitting here in comfort, it is hard to believe there is a lot of real EVIL out there … people who will slaughter their own citizens to keep them in line, regimes that provide MILLIONS to terrorist groups worldwide, religious human devils who DO send children suicide bombers into marketplaces and even rival mosques and would even support a nuclear war, in Allah’s name, of course. And the worst thing we can do, for our own security, is to ignore them. h.o)

• 11 Kim // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:20 am

  (You are right about our entry in WW II … but maybe millions of lives could have been saved if we had stopped Hitler earlier.)

  Like, before the games? Lol!

• 12 Lynn // Nov 11, 2009 at 4:11 pm

  I agree with Kim.
  Harv,
  Afghanistan may not have oil or gas but the surrounding region does and so Afghanistan must be stabilised. Russians tried and failed and now we are giving it a go. There have been regimes around the world that perform in oppressive ways and yet we have not gone into rescue them. This conflict is about business.
  Please do not compare WWII with Afghanistan. In my view you are dishonouring the memory of the fallen and survivors of that conflict. Just ask any veteran.
  I shall honour our men and women in Afghanistan, and wish them home soon.
  I want them home now.
  Let the CEO’s fight this war not from the comfort of a leather wing back chair but in the god awful heat of the desert.

  (Response: To the contrary. I am honouring those who have served, are serving and believe in what we are doing there. We owe them our complete support and although we may not like the heavy price, we must understand that, in a post 9-11 world, the best place to fight the radical Islamic terrorists (and trust me, unless you agreed to submit to Allah and convert, they would kill you, infidel, if they could) is on their home turf…not here. h.o)

• 13 Doug // Nov 11, 2009 at 4:38 pm

  Hi Harvey:

  I am not leftist anti-American. In fact, I am a conservitave Canadian but I do not think we should be Afghanistan either. We are there in support of the Power Elite who run the American government. It has nothing to do with fighting for the freedom of the Afghan people or stopping terrorism.

  In fact it was the US government who inflamed fundamentalist Muslims to fight against the Russians when they invaded. We have no clear purpose in being in Afghanistan.

  Why should we be helping Afghanistan women, while the Afghanistan men bugger the boys, instead of stemming the massacres in places like the Sudan. I could understand an interdiction in the Sudan sooner than going to Afghanistan, if we were going for Humanitarian reasons. No, my friend, Canada should not be in Afghanistan.

  (Response: Interesting …you didn’t mention Al Qaeda. I have been to Ground Zero ..was I dreaming? Where were they trained? Where were they welcomed? Afghanistan …by the murderous Taliban. That’s no figment of corporate imagination. h.o.)

• 14 Peter G // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:13 pm

  Lynn is correct… there is no comparison with WWII. Then, the majority of combatants were conscripted and had no choice. Today, every serviceman is a volunteer. They didn’t join up to save farm animals from swollen rivers (in spite of the government advertising). They joined to fight bad guys. All the brown jobs that I know are chomping at the bit to get to a war zone.

• 15 Leah // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:14 pm

  These links are to newspaper articles, videos – an entire series of videos called Rethink Afghanistan by Bravenew Films. They speak to Americans and to their thoughts, they also speak to the “other sideS”…there are considerably more than two! Find the attitudes of not only Afghani’s in cities, but in the rural countrysides…the two are very different. That is one of the biggest reasons this “war” will never be won by the West…ever. We are fighting a people raised on barbaric laws, and fanatical religion/s…with a mixture of greed, compassion, and our false sense of democracy. We’d be better off straightening out the mess that has begun to deteriorate our rights in our own country, than to fight a war in a country that has SAID, they do not want us there! Could it be any clearer than that? Not to the military complex that wants this war to continue for many years to come…they get obscenely wealthy…millions die. Canadians die. In a war they have no business participating in. MSM will never speak to the truths of Afghanistan.

  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anand-gopal/what-you-should-know-abou_b_186225.html

  http://tomdispatch.com/post/175010/anand_gopal_making_sense_of_the_taliban

  http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090720/afghanwomen_video
  “Rather than supporting military escalation, the women of Afghanistan can use your donations to help themselves. As Orzala Ashraf of the Afghan Women’s Network says in the film, “If I cannot liberate myself, no one from outside can liberate me.” ”

  http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bravenewfilms&annotation_id=annotation_831866&feature=iv#p/c/0F2B9493006F6389

• 16 Kim // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:34 pm

  Leah, well said! I was about to try to say exactly that about helping the women, microlending has proven to be the best thing you can do for a community. Plus, giving them the tools and supplies to rebuild their own economy! I’m going to read your links, thanks.

• 17 Leah // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:37 pm

  Attacks in Canadian waters and on the mainland

  “Axis U-boats operated in Canadian and Newfoundland waters throughout the war, sinking many naval and merchant vessels. Two significant attacks took place in 1942 when German U-boats attacked four allied ore carriers at Bell Island, Newfoundland. The carriers S.S. Saganaga and the S.S. Lord Strathcona were sunk by U-513 on September 5, 1942, while the S.S. Rosecastle and P.L.M 27 were sunk by U-518 on November 2 with the loss of 69 lives. When the submarine fired a torpedo at the loading pier, Bell Island became the only location in North America to be subject to direct attack by German forces in the Second World War. U-boats were also found in the St. Lawrence River; during the night of October 14, 1942 the Newfoundland Railway ferry, SS Caribou was torpedoed by German U-boat U-69 and sunk in the Cabot Strait with the loss of 137 lives. The Canadian mainland was also attacked when the Japanese submarine I-26 shelled the Estevan Point lighthouse on Vancouver Island on June 20, 1942. Japanese fire balloons were also launched at Canada, some reaching British Columbia and the other western provinces.”

  This gave us reason to fight in WWII. The Taliban and Afghani’s in general have done us no harm, we cannot say the same. We have now made enemies of these people for no reason, other than feeding the war machines insatiable desire for power, control, and money. Canada used to be known and respected for our “peace keeping” abilities, countries could rely on us to calm the waters…now we are known, and seen, as the lackeys of US Imperialism. We are reaping the whirlwind of manipulation by those behind 9/11. No one truly knows to this day, who that really was/is. Our soldiers deserve better than this.

  (Response: Done us no harm? Have you already forgotten the 24 Canadians who died in the World Trade Centre tragedy …thanks to the Taliban in Afghanistan aiding and providing a home and training ground for the Al Qaeda suicide terrorists who hijacked a those planes. Well, if you have forgotten…I’m sure their families have not. h.o.)

• 18 blaffergassted // Nov 11, 2009 at 5:39 pm

  Canadians do not understand their own history, or the many complex reasons for our service in Afghanistan.

  More later, maybe. Right now, I’m off to the Remembrance Day ceremony, where I’ll be laying a wreath.

• 19 crh // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:06 pm

  Harvey, this war is simply about control of the region. Imperialism at its’ worst behavior. Propaganda from these warring factions throw in the poor women and children wild card to make it easier for you and I to swallow the reason for being there. It works. Invading a country will always create opposing factions.
  Do you think that once ‘democracy’ is installed, that the USA will go away. Not on your life! They will keep lots of military bases open there for decades to come. I am ashamed that we, Canada, are at war for America. You should be looking at how dangerous the powerful, multi-national corporate culture has become. It is no coincidence that it was Wall Street that was targeted.

  There is talk of the Chinese Yen becoming the international currency in perhaps the next 10-15 years. Watch out for this. The Americans will not take this lying down.

• 20 the dude // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:12 pm

  I imagine a afganistan saying: “the best place to fight the those invading infidels (and trust me, unless you agreed to submit to the imperialist infidel and give up your beliefs, they would kill you, martyr of Allah, if they could) is on their home turf…not here….

• 21 the dude // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:19 pm

  Leah well said and well said again and again…

  h.o ’s + CNN?

• 22 Genuine // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:35 pm

  Harvey if the people wanted our style of life there they have had more than enough time for the majority to side with the forces and rid themselves of these evil forces we speak of there is no political or popular will to end any of this charade that’s happening there,that country has been in war for as long as it’s been around,that’s there primary source of income war the more war the better,so lets bring our boys home,unless we are there to keep them hemmed in (the taliban),make no mistake about it we are not there to build schools or protect women,as for one comment that was written I agree with,they don’t give a sh** about us here why in Gods green earth would they give a rats ass about them there!Just another platform for politicians to grandstand!!!!!

• 23 Surely // Nov 11, 2009 at 6:39 pm

  There is no succeeding in Afghanistan.
  It is a quagmire and has been for many, many, many years. To believe that we can “finish the job” is a delusion, and to lose one more Canadian soldier there would be for nothing.

• 24 Leah // Nov 11, 2009 at 7:46 pm

  “Done us no harm? Have you already forgotten the 24 Canadians who died in the World Trade Centre tragedy …thanks to the Taliban in Afghanistan aiding and providing a home and training ground for the Al Qaeda suicide terrorists who hijacked a those planes. Well, if you have forgotten…I’m sure their families have not. h.o.”

  Like I said up there ^^ Harvey, NO one other than those directly involved, and God himself know for certain who is responsible for 9/11…we do know that Al Queda was not. There is no way in hell Bin Laden wouldn’t have owned up to it if he had anything to do with it. We do know that 9 of the 19 Saudi’s “killed” in the attacks of 9/11 are alive and well…and living in Saudi Arabia.

  I have not forgotten Harvey, nor will I ever forget. But I will not jump on a bandwagon of blame and retaliation against a people not proven to have done the crime.

  The world has never seen a manipulation the likes of 9/11…and if we’re going to look at who trained who…the US trained Al Queda and in turn the Mujahadeen AND the Taliban! They not only trained them, they armed them to the teeth…the culmination of which is todays Afghanistan. One country cannot keep meddling in the internal affairs of another, and not expect to get severely, and painfully slapped at some point in time.

  Manipulation…slow the horse down, ask “why” until you can’t ask anymore, eventually you will very likely be at the root of the problem. And the problem didn’t begin with a backwoods, backward, last century country – it began with the country that assumes itself to be the worlds only Superpower.

  (Response: Where have you been? Al Qaeda HAS taken responsiblity for 9-11 … published their own face pictures of the “martyrs”. Some people responding to this issue are so anti-american they just cannot see the world as it really is ..and believe me, it’s not the U.S. …but Islamic terrorists … who most of us fear most. h.o.)

• 25 Lynn // Nov 11, 2009 at 10:39 pm

  Harvey,
  You certainly started a s**t storm.
  The international citizens that lost their lives on 9-11 was criminal, but the criminals behind the act are not (in my view) the ones you point at. They are being used as an excuse to go to “war”.
  A government always, always requires a reason. Who better than an uneducated country. A country that is surrounded by rich reserves of oil and gas.
  Chinese yen as a global currency? Maybe that is why the Yanks are creating a heavy debt with them. Bankrupt them through borrowing. Cheaper than bullets.

  (Response: Interesting that no one has answered my question: if we cut and run… how can we dare sleep at night when the slaughter by theTaliban of people who looked to us to bring then freedom and democracy begins? h.o)

• 26 Toby // Nov 12, 2009 at 12:15 am

  Harvey, after all this time, I still don’t know why Canada has troops in Afghanistan. Oh, I hear all the trite platitudes but I don’t believe them. I don’t believe for one minute that Stephen Harper cares one whit about the Afghan people; as someone said above, he doesn’t care that much for Canadians. Yes, helping people shake off an oppressor is admirable. There are dozens of opportunities to do that; Darfur and Myannar for example. Why Afghanistan? Didn’t Bill Graham say that it was to keep our border with the US open? Is trade with the US what people are dying for?

  Harvey, the news media has done a poor job of explaining the issues. How does Canada fit into the modern Great Game? How does Afghanistan fit? The SCO? Oil and/or gas pipelines? Other resources? What roll(s) do Canadian corporations play in Central Asia? Why are Canadian troops stationed on the proposed route of the Trans Afghan Pipeline? How does Kashmir fit into the mix? Would calving off the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan into a Pashtunistan help solve this crisis? Afghanistan shares a border with China; so what is China’s role in the mix? Who is supplying weapons? Who wants to see this conflict continue and who wants a resolution?

  I heard a commentator say that this war will last thirty years. Is that realistic? Is Canada going to be sending troops for thirty years? Why are we there? What do we hope to accomplish? What will Central Asia look like when we leave?

  Why are we kept in the dark? Why are we fed platitudes and slogans? Why won’t our ruling classes tell us what’s really going on?

  (Response: Ask the people of Pakistan near the Afghan border why we must defeat the Taliban and their Al Qaeda terrorist allies. They are ruthless religious ideologues who rule by fear and terror and don’t think twice before beheading opponents, cutting off limbs, burning school, even bombing mosques where the imam has stood up against them. Fight them there are face their terrible handiwork here. h.o.)

• 27 blaffergassted // Nov 12, 2009 at 12:17 am

  Never underestimate the ability of a small group of people …?

  Apply this kind of thinking to the people who committed the -11 tragedy, and you might get some kind of inkling of what we are really up against.

• 28 slimey limey // Nov 12, 2009 at 12:20 am

  Ayup Harvey,

  I have to agree with most of the postings that there is no comparison between ww2 and this current shambles that Canada finds itself in. Canada got sucked in to relieve American troops to go to Iraq to err, find weapons of mass destruction, err Capture Sadam Hussein, oops sorry, I meant spread democracy. However, you are correct that we can’t leave now as we are committed, but when & if the “combat” mission ends in 2011 if the weasel wording from the politicos are to be believed, Canada should return to it’s traditional military role, not be used as a gofer for the next neo-con nutcase.

• 29 blaffergassted // Nov 12, 2009 at 1:19 am

  Sucked in? Look who’s talking!
  The Limeys got it worse, in Basra.
  Besides, “nothing” was going to stop the U.S. from doing what it was going to do.

• 30 Toby // Nov 12, 2009 at 1:22 am

  Yes, there are some ruthless opponents in Afghanistan, as there are elsewhere. You didn’t answer my question about why we are there as opposed to, say, Darfur which has its own share of nasties. Do you really think that subduing the Taliban will put a stop to Jihads? I don’t. I see no reasonable end to the conflict in Afghanistan during my lifetime. I think we will leave one way or another and life will continue there much as it has.

  (Response: We are there because Al Qaeda is there and from bases there, they want to exact a murderous toll on our cities and our people ..unless you want to be surrender to their radical Islamic agenda. I do not. h..o)

• 31 Dan. R // Nov 12, 2009 at 2:29 am

  I believe they are their for the pipeline and to make the US Military industrial Complex loads of money. After all no money in Peace.

  But this so called War was never taken seriously anyway from the start, Bush was more into Iraq. There have never been anywhere near enough troops to ‘win’.

  What we have accomplished there? So Men denying women food if they do not have sex with them? So Girls getting burned on the way to school? Women still treated like garbage? A corrupt Government and President? A rigged election where the rigger still was going to run in run off and not disqualified?

  History has shown from Ghangis Khan to the British to the USSR and now NATO is that outside armies can not fight the Guerrilla war the Taliban do so well. Not to mention they have left over USSR equipment and Equipment from the US they got when fighting the USSR.

  I also wonder if 9/11 (the second one in New York, not the first one in 1973 the US caused in Chile) would of happened if Clinton would of let Iran invade Afghanistan in 98 after those 6 Iranian officials were killed? Iran had their military all up on the border ready to go in and after the Taliban but the USA convinced them otherwise.

  It has been over 8 years now, twice as long as WW1 and still……..???

  But hey, we did make sure they got their poppy crop up and running and even protected the crop..

  This is Vietnam all over again.

• 32 Kim // Nov 12, 2009 at 3:18 am

  “… if we cut and run… how can we dare sleep at night when the slaughter by theTaliban of people who looked to us to bring then freedom and democracy begins? h.o)”

  HO. Did you watch Leah’s video link from thenation about Afghan women? These people have been occupied forever. If we withdrew our occupation, they would gravitate towards more moderate leadership. They are attracted by the Taliban because the western sponsored puppet government has not improved their lives at all. In fact, how many wedding parties have been bombed by American or Allied troops? The rape law? That was the “planted” government.

  Having trouble sleeping at night? Give money to the WOMEN of Afghanistan, they will look after business. After they look after the children.

  You know what would keep me up at night? My son is perfectly trained to run supply convoys out of Kandahar or Kabul. That’s where he would be tasked. He is 21. He wants to do a tour of duty there.

  I am proud of him, he carries on a military tradition, but we tread in murky waters when the people we “liberate” look upon us as oppressors. That’s not our tradition as Canadians.

  I do not recall the people of Afghanistan asking us to liberate them.

• 33 Kim // Nov 12, 2009 at 3:35 am

  By the way Harv that was a great way to inspire important debate, thank you!

  (Response: That is often my real goal … to get public discussion going on major issues. But I have to admit, I have been quite blown away by the almost unanimous rejection of my stand on this one. And quite a few offered some really good perspectives and food for thought. Of course, I still believe we cannot leave until Al Qaeda’s threat to us is totally smashed. h.o.

• 34 Leah // Nov 12, 2009 at 4:19 am

  I agree Dan, this is our generational version of Vietnam…and will have much of the same consequences. Governments will not listen to the soldiers in the field when they say, “don’t send more troops here – find and commit to an exit strategy as soon as possible.” Nine years of war and counting… .

  We need not worry about Islam taking over the world from Afghanistan, we need to pay closer attention to how it’s quietly taking over in places like Britain…how have they accomplished what they’ve done thus far? “Fear Islam” is the “button” Western governments use when they want people to fall in line with their already-decided-upon course of action. It works every time. If Canadians must fear something, we should fear extremists of any religion, Christian or otherwise, taking the helm of government. Why would our own governments even so much as consider a hearing about allowing Shari’a as another form of law in Canada?

  Don’t fight and fall for the extremist Islamic bogeyman overseas, fight it here at home, where it’s alive and well – and growing. Think Trojan Horse.

  Harvey, on this issue – we’ll have to agree to disagree. WAR = Waste All Resources. Afghanistan is definitely doing that, and will ultimately accomplish nothing of worth.

  (Response: Actually I DO agree with you on one thing: Islam’s quiet emergence as a major force in several European countries. For some very complex reasons ..discrimination and/or self isolation … European society is changing … and intolerance on both sides is growing. This could be a very hot issue within the decade. h.o)

• 35 Leah // Nov 12, 2009 at 4:40 am

  A quick aside Harvey – we may not agree on this issue, but I sure thank you for providing a forum for discussion of it – and other important issues facing us. Your blog is one of few I visit daily, because I know there will always be something here we need to pay attention to. Blessings.

  (Response: I’m really enjoying doing it ..especialy when we get a good discussion going on issues we face. It’s called democratic debate. h.o)

• 36 Norman Farrell // Nov 12, 2009 at 4:53 am

  Harvey, I wish I could agree with you but, while there is undisputed evidence of Karzai Government corruption, there is faint evidence that a majority of Afghan people support European and North American armies on their soil.

  Canada’s goals in Afghanistan are poorly defined and not at all likely to succeed. Nothing in recent history suggests that anything short of an exponentially larger, long-term military occupation would be successful. The shame is that the West is harvesting seeds it planted.

  Look at this highly condensed review of the past 175 years:

  From the 19th century, Britain tried to rule the area until independent Afghanistan was created following WWI. Royal authority presided uneasily over the fractious state until a 1973 coup resulted in formation of a republic.

  A secular government, sustained by the USSR, attempted major social changes: land reform, religious freedom and female emancipation – ironically, values that western nations now seek to impose. Then too, cultural discord and foreign influence led to armed strife. American agencies encouraged anti-government forces as part of their anti-communist strategy.

  From:
  http://northerninsights.blogspot.com/2009/09/not-out-of-sight-not-out-of-mind.html

  (Response: Yes…Karzai government is corrupt ..but that is almost a way of life in much of Asia, Africa, the mid East and even Eastern Europe. And had it not been for 9-11 and Al Qaeda basing itself in Afghanistan, we probably wouldnt be there ..but THEY are there and in nearby Pakistan , and for our own safety, I believe we MUST do everything possible now to keep them hiding in caves instead of setting up bases and a whole regionakl infrastructure out in the open. h.o)

• 37 AJ // Nov 12, 2009 at 5:01 am

  Wow, you have managed to stimulate the intellectual left and the politically correct. Well done Harv.

  (Response: Alas! I have not yet made them see the real world of Al Qaeda and radical Islam as it is! h.o.)

• 38 Henri Paul // Nov 12, 2009 at 6:37 am

  Harv replied Nov 12, 2009 at 5:01 am
  Response: Alas! I have not yet made them see the real world of Al Qaeda and radical Islam as it is!
  ————————————————————
  Shite, we might be better trading off Campbell and Falcon for Al Qaeda and Islam at least they look after their own.

• 39 A. G. Tsakumis // Nov 12, 2009 at 10:59 am

  Harv:
  You’re post should be required reading for all the dunderheads that won’t allow themselves to see past their anti-American venom and doctrinaire bile.

  The bromide about controlling oil or the region is utter nonsense.

  It’s about stemming the tide of evil. If Russia took the same attitude sixty years ago at the gates of Poland, as some of these bleeding hearts think we should take now, you’d be eating schnitzel and drinking Beck’s in Warsaw.

  There is no more greater threat on the planet today, than Islamo-fascism. Look at what the homegrown vareity did in America recently.

  They must be stopped.

  (Response: Well said. I am amazed at how many of our citizens are so self-hating that are willing to accept any ugly conspiracy theory or condemnation of ANYTHING the U.S. (and Canada and all the Western countries) do without question ..but continually turn a blind eye to all the evidence (killings, bombings, suicide attacks) being done almost every week around the world by radical Islamic terrorists. I know that before and even during the Second World War, there were also people here who denied Hitler’s evil almost right to the end and advocated our non-involvement … seems little has changed. By the way , love your new website http://www.alextsakumis.com h..o)

• 40 darlene C // Nov 12, 2009 at 3:04 pm

  Iam a white,Christain,single woman, born and raised in Canada.I have been a victim of organised crime for 15 longsuffering years, and on going.WHY? Because police do not want to take down their own.Some police dept. like Vanc.BC, use a two file system, for falsifing identities. A CSIS agent said to me ,Aug 2002,”what they’re doing to you,they’re doing o native women and prosititues. Poor women with loose family ties,so the victims are none the wiser.
  Mr. Oberfeld, you started this colum off in the 3rd paragragh “when they were occupied by cruel,evil forces that govrn through terror”.
  Mr. Oberfeld , you just discribed CANADA, which is under the governence of the U.S.!
  My cousin is about to be depolyed to Afghanistan, to help liberate Afghan women. But not here in Canada.Where I am forced to live with a bastardize reputation and alleinated from most of society and ignored from those ,whose job it is to serve and protect and ignored from those I voted for. ? People cross to the other side of the street when they see me walking towards them. I have been shunned and mocked by people who think I am someone I’M NOT! Where does one go to for help when slandered by police? The chief? Complaint comm.? Sol/gen? Done all that and more over the past decade. I am on my 4th Federal minister of Justice. I have been flagged on all pieces of identifcations, (2 file system, one report I get, and one report authorties get).
  This is a multi-million dollar criminal industry, run by cruel, evil forces that govern through terror! Just ask Mahar Arar, and others!

  (Response: Sounds like you need to talk to a lawyer. h.o.)

• 41 Toby // Nov 12, 2009 at 5:31 pm

  Harv, you have blinders on. We know the Taliban have a horrific way of enforcing their fundy lifestyle. I don’t want these guys as neighbours any more than you do. Some of us, however, are very suspicious that there is more to this conflict than dislike of tribal behaviour. I suppose this comes from a lifetime of having our leaders tell us lies. It comes from knowing that the Americans, among others, happily allied with the Taliban (and the ugly methods) when it suited them.

  We also know that Al Qaeda, and others, have a Jihad mentality. Al Qaeda is better educated and well financed and mobile. Jihad can function from anywhere. The 9/11 attack on the WTC was perpetrated by Saudis who planned in Germany and trained in the US. Sending cruise missiles and drones into AfPak to reign terror on villages will not do anything to reduce the Jihad motive. To the contrary, it will probably make things worse.

  As I said above, I want to know the rest of the story. I want to know what Canada’s place in the Great Game is. I want to know why Canada is in Afghanistan. If our leaders over the past sixty years had always told the absolute truth I might believe that Afghanistan was about stopping abuses by the Taliban and terrorism by Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, I don’t even trust our present Prime Minister as far as I could pick him up and throw him.

  (Response: It’s actually very simple … Afghanistan will never become a great Western style democracy…but if we can at least prop up a less-corrupt and brutal government and keep Al Qaeda holed up in caves or constantly on the run … both the people of Afghanistan and all the Western democracies will be better and safer for it. Sorry it can end better like a tv drama where everything is solved perfectly in the end but if you just think of the real world, accomplishing what I believe could be a good outcome …would make for a much better world than just letting the terrorists run free and set up new training bases unfettered. h.o.)

• 42 Kim // Nov 12, 2009 at 5:46 pm

  Maybe that’s because you’re wrong on this one, Lol. Maybe people don’t think Al Qaeda a threat sufficient to sacrificing our young men and women. Just to play devil’s advocate here, maybe people are not convinced it wasn’t Bush and Cheney masterminding 9/11. (I’d better duck!)

  (Response: The Bush-Cheney conspiracy theory was made all the more ridiculous since Al Qaeda has rejoiced and provided face pics of all their “martyrs” involved in the operation. Or is Al Qaeda a CIA operation? And Al Qaeda not a threat? Just wait. And remember Canada IS on their list. Then you and others will wonder why our government failed to “do more” to protect us. And if we pull out of Afghanistan and Al Qaeda re-establishes there under another brutal Taliban radical dicatorship, the blood of innocents will be on your hands …not mine. h.o.)

• 43 Kim // Nov 12, 2009 at 6:30 pm

  I think Toby has some good points about Al Qaeda. You aren’t going to destroy them by flattening Afghanistan. Also his point about our distrust of our own government. And really, if they were so concerned about women’s rights and democracy, wouldn’t they be practicing them here? And why are the women of Afghanistan begging us to get out?
  “The blood of innocents…”, really Harv I don’t think so. What about all the civilian casualties that are the byproduct of our actions there? Canada is a target because We have waged war on Them.

  (Response: Wow! You don’t think people in an office tower that gets hit by terrorists or on a plane that is commandeered and blown up are innocents? Incredible! And I frankly think you’re making it up or buying into outright radical Islamic propaganda when you say the women in Afghanistan are begging us to get out. Bet you would have bought whatever Lord Ha Ha or Mata Hari said too in World War Two. h.o)

• 44 Shah // Nov 12, 2009 at 8:13 pm

  A couple things first:
  1. I am Afghan, left when the Russians invaded
  2. I am a direct decendent of Amir Dost Mohammed (great, great, great grandson) see http://history1800s.about.com/od/colonialwars/a/kabul1842.htm

  Afghanistan is not Iraq. This is not about oil or natural gas. This is about Pakistan and it’s nuclear capabilities. If we leave Afghanistan alone, there will be another 9/11 and Harvey is right we will all be up in arms “wondering why our government failed…” us all.

  Part of the Afghanistan solution is Pakistan. They need to stop the jumping back and forth of the Taliban and Al Qaeda between the two countries.

  The other part has to be infrastructure building in Afghanistan. Fix the roads and the sewers. Start rebuilding the infrastructure to show that after 30 years of war there is hope.

  Have we forgotten 9/11 already? The feeling of fear and helplessness? When you looked up in the sky as fighter jets escorted commercial jets to YVR, did it not cause us to think of your safety and the safety of our loved ones?

  Imagine having to live with this fear everyday. The fear of a knock on the door and your parents being taken away never to be seen again. I don’t have to imagine I have lived through it. Trust me you never what to go through it!

  As Canadians we cannot look the other way. When 2011 comes and our commitment comes to an end we need to re-up and continue to participate in some manner. It does not have to be the full on combat mission, but I needs to be significant.

• 45 Kim // Nov 12, 2009 at 9:22 pm

  I was referring to your comment to me that the blood of innocents would be on my hands. Not that the tower victims were to blame in any way. That response sounded more like a personal attack:(

  The radical islamist propaganda you refer to was the videolink from Leah above, from thenation.

  As for the conspiracy suggestion, that was tongue-in-cheek, maybe in bad taste, sorry. No disrespect indended.

  I’ll look for some more evidence HO but I still think its not our war and it’s not winnable by waging war.

  I’ll get back to you.

  (Response: Please read the response from Shah, an Afghan now living in Canada. h.o.)

• 46 Norman Farrell // Nov 12, 2009 at 9:39 pm

  Canada requires much larger armed forces if we are going to intervene wherever needed to fight crimes against humanity.

  But, in the absence of large military capability, we must prioritize. How would you rank the killing fields of Africa where the deaths of innocents number, not in thousands but in millions? Does the shade of victims’ skin color make a difference in ranking tragedy? Or, is the level of threat to Israel a deciding point?

  Shah says “start rebuilding the [Afghan] infrastructure to show that after 30 years war, there is hope.” The international community has spent billions trying to do that but, between the donors and the intended beneficiaries, there is a near impenetrable wall of corruption and social barriers. How many times do we rebuild a school to see it destroyed by residents unwilling to accept our concept of how their society should be organized?

  Ultimately, nations choose their own leadership.

  (Response: I don’t think Canada can intervene everywhere to fight crimes against humanity …. but you raise an interesting point. I have for some time wondered why the UN can’t expand its world force. ..not just as peacekeepers ..but to actually go into many more areas where it is clear a government is committing real genocide against its own people or minority. After seeing Dachau in Germany, and Mauthausen in Austria it has always seemed unfathomable to me that the world would allow the genocides to go on for so long in Cambodia, Croatia and Darfur without just moving in with overwhelming military force to stop it!! Shame on us. h..o)

• 47 Keith // Nov 12, 2009 at 11:30 pm

  I agree with HO. Contrary to so many who do not agree. History during the ages should teach us lessons. But its so easily forgotten. As far fetched as it may seem, today we are still dealing with he aftermath of WW1 and WW2. That is if you do know your history. HO’s opinion shows he knows his history. Unfortunately many dont and only see the US as an imperialistic power. So why did they institute the Marshall plan after WW2 to get Europe back on its feet? And when you ask that question the answer from the ignorant is often self interest. They could have kept Western Europe like the Russians did with Eastern Europe. But they did not. Thye secured a way back to prosperity and I for one will be thankfull forever to our fallen soldiers. So why are we in Afghanistan. Maybe there are some similarities. But according to many we should get out, the US and other Allies should get out. Ok. So give Al Queda a free hand just like Chamberlain did in 1938 paving the way to WW2 Read your history folks and then comment! Thank you

  (response: Thanks. It has been kind of lonely on this side. It amazes me how condemnatory people are about everything the U.S. does …see ulterior motives everything they do …even giving more AIDs assistance to Africa than the rest of the world combined. (Where are rich oil states???) But the same people always totally excuse or ignore the Russians, who have helped Iran build its nuclear bomb … oops, a power tower; China for supporting the worst dictatorships in Africa in return for resources; Iran for shipping TONS of weapons to Shiites to destabilize Iraq, Lebanon (see that shipload of Iranian rockets and boms bound for Hesbollah but seized by Israel the other day?) …. There are none so blind as those who will not see .. or just see what they want to, eh. h..o)

• 48 Henri Paul // Nov 12, 2009 at 11:51 pm

  Holy sterile bat testicles batman, how do perform a follow up after this performance?

  (Response: Can’t be done. h.o.

• 49 Norman Farrell // Nov 13, 2009 at 8:04 am

  I’m critical of some American policies and speak about it because I desire America to live up to the ideals that led to Barack Obama’s election. They are an evolved, educated society that won’t tremble when a friend criticizes. Much of the American population is unhappy with certain imperialist actions throughout its history, including the use of force and subterfuge to economically oppress people in Central and South America and paying more attention to oil than human rights in the middle east.

  A father tries to influence his child out of love. Maybe it’s the same with our great neighbor. We hope to see them improve because we regard them highly and believe them capable of effective moral leadership in the world.

  (Response: These seem to be noble thoughts that apply in your case, but I’m afraid my observation of the anti-American biases on this side of the border are not so idealistically motivated. Just say the words United States (or Israel) and there are very large numbers of Canadians who go into a Pavlovian response, spewing negativity and invective and condemn whatever they are or are not doing. These people are just simply bigots. If the U.S. provides help after an earthquake, it’s just to extend their imperialism and bribe the population or make them dependent; if they don’t provide massive help immediately, they are also condemned. But the Russians and the Chinese, who repeatedly assure us they too ARE world powers, get a free pass …every time. Don’t get me wrong: there are a lot of things the US does I don’t like (like the Buy American program, hurting Canadian firms), their arrogance (US is the BEST on EVERYTHING) and frankly, I do find most of them quite ignorant on world events, geography, politics, Canada, health care …they clearly prefer sports, Oprah and Britney knowledge … but I don’t just react with an anti-American response on EVERYTHING …like so many brainwashed left wing ideologues do. h.o)

• 50 the dude // Nov 13, 2009 at 5:17 pm

  ok. so we now know at least 2 people on this side of the border watches CNN

• 51 Kim // Nov 13, 2009 at 6:41 pm

  Lol dude. Harv, I think you are quick to generalise on the commentary here, isn’t that premature? If you want to talk China why not write an article about it? Then, maybe we can debate that, or maybe everyone will agree with you, stranger things have happened. I’m not a bigot, I’m an equal opportunity loather.

  (Response: I have written on China…use the search box to find them. h.o.)

• 52 Stephanie // Nov 13, 2009 at 8:16 pm

  I think you, mister Oberfeld, should read this article : http://thetyee.ca/ by a well known Afghani womens leader. She has a somewhat different perspective than the men you quote on our and our allies’ occupation of her native country. As for you calling those of us who believe this “war” is not about helping the people of Afghanistan, but rather is about securing the most direct route for an oil pipeline to the Caspian sea naive, I suggest it is you who is the naive one. Throughout history, every war has been about stealing territory and/or resources from one country by another. In fact, it has been stated on more than one occasion by US politicians from the President on down, that they are there ” to protect Americas interests abroad”. How you, as a journalist, could see it any differently is beyond all reasoning.

  (Response: Of course the US is there to protect its interests; so is Canada and all the other allies. But those interests are not economic …they are to protect our lives by smashing Al Qaeda’s leadership, or at least keeping the terrorists on the run or holed up in caves. Sorry if that offends you. If Al Qaeda was left totally alone a few years ago …do you really think they would not have attacked some office tower, airliner, hotel or other infrastructure ..killing a few hundred or thousand people. Dealing with terrorists is quite black and white… there is no room for discussion. h.o.)

• 53 Henri Paul // Nov 13, 2009 at 9:23 pm

  Revised
  Norman Farrell // Nov 13, 2009 at 8:04 am
  A father tries to influence his child out of love.
  ————————————————————
  I wonder if Omar Khadr’s defense will echo those same words . After all, it was his father who did play a major roll in moulding the direction of “his” sons life towards religion and political activism.
  Im a firm believer that no person under 18 years of age should be induced,introduced,indoctrinated , into any form relgion. This case is classic example of the manipulation of a young mind . Its the young, such as Omar who are pre programmed to sacrifice their lives e.g. suicide bombers.
  The main prospective of this discussion pertains to religion. Its the root cause of terrorism, not the Americans, kellogg’s or chem trails or whatever other goofy theory pops up on the Internet or peoples minds.
  Surprisingly I think about 80% of the commentators here missed the main thrust of this this topic.
  What I find so intriguing and disconcerting is those who support or believe this anti-USA, 911,etc, conspiracy theory’s firm belief in such theories.
  Why, I must ask, rather than waste your time and resources chasing down these airy fairy conspiracy theories, instead research the ones who you have just reelected to power here in BC.
  Where are your priorities, surely not here at home.

• 54 Leah // Nov 14, 2009 at 1:13 am

  A lot of good comments about a difficult and divisive subject, leaving the snark out of some of them of course. But really, I’ve just finished reading all of them again…and pretty much everyone has a good point or two.

  However; I’m still not worried about Islam as much as I worry about Fascism and the inherent ugliness of it. Though I think the “fundamentalists” of any religion, or ideology should worry us all. The word ‘fundamentalist’ is the key here. I no more worry about Islam than I do Christianity, in the hands and hearts of a non-fundie, the true believers of both religions are very gentle people, who detest war for any reason. Their fundamental brothers/sisters are anything but, and both religions persecute women and children first, and foremost. Terrorism is disruptive, destructive, and expensive but not the way to bring down a nation.

  If I were intent on taking over as the new Super Power…I’d do it very quietly. While the rest of the world is worrying about terrorists, and my enemy-friend has been spending their GDP for the next 100 years to chase them to the ends of the earth, then spending billions more to kill them wherever they find them – I’d quietly be backing the loans to make the murder and mayhem possible. Then I might just become a major investor in all of these countries resources; oil, gas, water, timber, transportation…and as they hit the wall, due to greed and/or mismanagement, I’d buy it up.

  One day…when the time was right, I’d not loan any more funds for this continuing stupidity – instead I’d call in my loans, due for immediate payment. Can’t pay? Of course not, I knew that when I made the loans possible. Now, meet the new not formally acknowledged (yet) Super Power, it’s what China has been doing for years…while Russia has been making the Father of All Bombs (and who knows what else inside Yamantau Mountain.) Add to that Iran’s new nuclear plant also built inside a mountain, with no one being certain of just how close they are (or not) to having a nuclear bomb…North Korea’s hidden “shock and awe” runway mere minutes from the US manned front line in South Korea…now Syria’s working toward a nuclear arsenal on top of her proven chemical and biological capabilities…and you have the beginnings of what could be the perfect storm to annihilate all of mankind, unless cooler heads prevail.

  Yes, terrorism is real, frightening, worrisome…and it’s end result can be horrifying. But I don’t believe that terrorism is what will reduce us to economic ash. That we have so much wealth to give, that we have so much to waste…is an illusion.

• 55 sunshine coast girl // Nov 15, 2009 at 4:51 pm

  Forgive me if I sound stupid, but when the US first invaded Afghanistan I thought it was to capture Bin Laden after 911. I don’t recall any talk of the Taliban until AFTER they invaded the country.

  Still no Bin Laden, but lots of different reasons for staying there now.

  (Response: Wrong. Not long after 9-11 info began to surface about where the terrorists had come from (and by the way, I recall they were not Afghans but Saudis, Egyptian and Yemeni, I believe) but their Al Qaeda training camp ended up being in Afghanistan near the Pakistani border and they were being harbored, supplied with food/equipment etc by the Taliban in Afghanistan. h.o )

• 56 sunshine coast girl // Nov 16, 2009 at 3:55 am

  Again Harvey, I’m sorry to disagree. But I recalled after 911 old GW’s words about finding Bin Laden, and after my last posting went to Wiki to refresh my memory. Now I know that anyone can post to Wiki and it’s not also absolutely accurate, but here is what it said (which jives with my memory).

  “The War in Afghanistan is an ongoing coalition conflict which began on October 7, 2001, as the US military’s Operation Enduring Freedom that was launched, along with the British military, in response to the September 11 attacks. The UK has, since 2002, led its own military operation, Operation Herrick, as part of the same war in Afghanistan.

  The stated aim of the invasion was to find Osama bin Laden and other high-ranking Al-Qaeda members and put them on trial, to destroy the whole organization of Al-Qaeda, and to remove the Taliban regime which supported and gave safe harbor to Al-Qaeda. The United States’ Bush Doctrine stated that, as policy, it would not distinguish between terrorist organizations and nations or governments that harbor them.”

  (Response: Actually what I find much more interesting is a panel discussion on CPAC tonight in which Canada’s former ambassador to Afghanistan Chris Anderson stated that the Taliban and Al Qaeda work “cheek by jowel together” in Afghanistan. Why can you not understand how there ARE radical extreme Islamic evil forces in the world, some of whom are battling with terrorist tactics to take back control of Afghanistan. The Taliban would “reward” many of those here with “sympathies” towards them with a good beating, stoning or beheading if they refused to do/live/dress exactly the way THEY say they must .. and they ARE quite willing to kill to spread this brand of Islam around the world. Do you really feel women have no right to go to schools, to learn to read or write or get any treatment in a hospital that is built to treats men. Is that what you would enjoy? If not, don’t defend them and the barbaric evil they represent. I say, fight them there …not here.

• 57 BC Mary // Nov 16, 2009 at 5:03 pm

  Have a look at today’s The Tyee in the Book section:

  A woman among warlords: The extraordinary story of an Afghan who dared to raise her voice.

  It’s written by Malalai Joya, an elected MP under Afghan president Karzai … a woman MP who was expelled for … um, er … to quote H.O., “refusing to do/live/dress exactly the way THEY [meaning Karzai, in this case] say they must … ”

  http://thetyee.ca/Books/2009/11/16/MalalaiJoyaCdnTour/

  And Harvey … how can we, in Canada achieve the impossible task of invading and modifying Afghanistan … the French couldn’t do it … the British couldn’t do it (when those two nations were powerful military nations situated a lot closer to Afghanistan than we are) …

  and now you advocate that we must fulfill George W. Bush’s apocalyptic vision? Don’t be cruel: you know that the USA (even with our help) can’t do it either. Clausewitz said it clearly: Don’t engage in a war if you don’t know how to escape from it. Or, one might add, how to win it.

  PS. Did you notice how the argument you use against “Sunshine Coast Girl” is the same old argument that was rolled out against communism during the Cold War? Gotta fight them over THERE or we’ll have to fight them HERE. Bizzaro.

  Btw, Sunshine Coast Girl deserved a much more intelligent response to her comments. You really went over the line, there … closer to bullying than it rational debate, if you ask me.

  (Response: The primary goal was not and is not Afghasnistan …it is terrorism ..and Afghanistan , under the Taliban, is where Al Qaeda was welcomed, supported and given a free hand to plan, organize it’s terrorist attacks throughout the world. I’ve already written about Joya in response to other comments. What I really don’t understand is why so many women are so soft on the Taliban, who used violence and terror to subjugate Afghans (and ESPECIALLY women) and Al Qaeda who, if you refused to accept Islam and wear the Burkha, would kill you right now if they could. h.o. )

• 58 sunshine coast girl // Nov 16, 2009 at 5:42 pm

  And I don’t understand why you defend this war so vigorously when SO MANY AFGHAN WOMEN say again and again that they actually preferred living under Taliban rule rather than living under foreign occupation. It’s a bit like a man telling me what the best thing for MY body is, don’t you think?

  (Response: “SO MANY AFGHAN WOMEN” prefer living under Afghan rule. Seen a poll on that? But I have seen MANHY happy faces of young girls going to school, learning, and actually having hope for jobs,careers for the first time in their lives. And by the way, so many German women apparently also preferred living under the Nazis from 1939-45. But after they knew freedom, almost none, I’m sure, would ever want to go back. Altrhough I suspect you’d keep quoting the ones who would! Just not sure why. h.o)

• 59 Leah // Nov 16, 2009 at 5:56 pm

  If this is really a fight about terrorism – there seems to be a problem. This war is supposedly about the 9/11 issue where 3000 people were killed…yet how many people have died in the East as a result of it? Last estimate was in the neighbourhood of 1.5 million…with millions more displaced. Is there a magic number that has to be reached before “we’re even?”

  HOW is this going to warm the hearts of those whose hearts we need to “win?” It won’t, it can’t. We’re just creating the next 3 generations of terrorists! Osama Bin Laden stated within hours that al-Qaida was not a part of this attack, and past history shows that he was extremely quick to claim his own actions.

  Still, the one thing that struck me as odd as I watched those towers fall, and they were already starting on the “terrorism” track…what is the purpose of terrorism? To strike unholy fear into the hearts of a nation, to kill the maximum number using a minimum amount of resources. So why would they strike at an hour when so few were in the buildings, and on the street? One or two hours later, the buildings would have been full (about 50,000)…and the streets would have been teeming with many thousands more. Now that, is something a real terrorist would salivate over.

  The war in Afghanistan has nothing to do with 9/11…this war was planned before then. There are documents proving that. Just one of many sites showing the plans were already made, just waiting implementation when circumstances were right: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4587368/

  That said, I’d like to see every terrorist male on the planet given a sex-change – then be sent to live in Afghanistan. That might actually have a deterrent effect – nothing else will.

• 60 BC Mary // Nov 16, 2009 at 6:30 pm

  PS. I forgot to include the Russians! Imagine. The Russians — almost on Afghanistan’s doorstep — with their massive army and short supply-chain, couldn’t subdue the Afghans either. So, joining the others (Britain, France, Russia) the consensus was then that it’s an impossible mission. What’s changed? Nothing.

  And really … isn’t this the old Cold War ticket-to-invade or blockade, or make their lives difficult any way we could, if a nation decides to try another way (right or wrong)?

  Here’s a thought, Harv: why not leave Afghanistan to the Afghans who have already proven themselves to be dauntless in defense of their own territory?

  One last question: doesn’t the UN Charter specify it as a war crime, to invade another country?

  (Response: The Russians were not chasing Al Qaeda. As far as leaving Afghans to work it out … sure, we could just bomb the hell out of Al Qaeda camps with cruise missiles when they set them up again … and just abandon the kids, the women, the gays, people speaking out for rights and freedom to the brutal warlords and the Taliban .. and watch the terror/blood flow there again. But we would never have the right again to ever hold those touchy-feely demos we love here so much, where people and their kids light candles, make empty speeches, sing We Shall Overcome and then go to Tim Hortons, thinking they’ve made the world better. h.o)

• 61 BC Mary // Nov 16, 2009 at 6:38 pm

  Harv … I want to mention that today, November 16, is the anniversary of the hanging of a great Canadian patriot, Louis Riel, who was also a democratically-elected MP.

  I often, often wonder what Canada would be like today, if Riel had been treated better. After all, British troops from Ottawa invaded HIS territory …

  and I think it’s wise to remember that things went downhill from there.

• 62 sunshine coast girl // Nov 17, 2009 at 12:10 am

  One last thought for you HO. Your friend, the Shah, left Afghanistan nearly 30 years ago. On the other hand, Malalai Joya still lives there. I think I’ll go with her words since she knows of what she speaks.

  “We are stuck between two enemies — the occupation forces killing innocent civilians, and the Taliban and warlords. Many people say that if the troops leave Afghanistan, civil war will happen. But we have a civil war now. As long as the U.S. and NATO are here, the civil war will continue because they are supporting the government and the warlords. If they end the occupation of my country then we, the true democrats of Afghanistan, will be fighting one enemy instead of two.”

• 63 sunshine coast girl // Nov 17, 2009 at 3:25 pm

  Here is a link from the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA).

  http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-07_e.htm

• 64 BC Mary // Nov 18, 2009 at 3:19 pm

  And here’s a forceful argument from Jeffrey Simpson of The Globe and Mail, Nov. 18/09:

  Headline: A clean Afghan handover is a long way from reality.

  Sub-title: Corruption and incompetence make NATO’s exit strategy look more like a pipe dream.

  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/a-clean-afghan-handover-is-a-long-way-from-reality/article1367088/

• 65 Romeogolf // Nov 21, 2009 at 12:13 am

  Afghanistan is a classic quagmire that will grind on without end as the forces there are currently constituted. The more apt comparison is Vietnam.

  There is a reason why Afghanistan has never been conquered by a foreign power going back to Alexander the Great. The terrain is ideally suited to guerilla warfare. How can NATO troops distinguish friend from foe? They can’t. An Afghan may one day be a friend, but the next day a foe because the Taliban came along and paid him three times what the government offers to fight for them.

  Even if NATO forces adopted the standard military formula for pacifying an occupied country and sent 500,000 troops to Afghanistan — which they can’t — they still would fail.

  Afghanistan is tribal. There’s no loyalty to the corrupt central government, especially when it is unrepresentative of the ethnic makeup of the country — overwhelmingly controlled by Tajik drug warlords when the majority of Afghans is Pashtun. Family/tribal ties and cash rule the day. That is why there is a problem with the Afghan Army maintaining its troop levels. Recruits get tired or a more attractive offer from somewhere else and regularly quit. Training becomes never-ending.

  Speaking of tribal ties, these span the Afghan-Pakistan border. So if those opposed to the Tajik drug warlords and their NATO allies are defeated in battle, they just simply disappear into anonymity amongst their brethren in the countryside or hop across the border to hide amongst their compatriots in the Northwest Frontier Province, over which the Pakistani government has always had a tenuous hold.

  What to do? Is NATO going to invade Pakistan, like the US invaded Cambodia? No. Pakistan is an ally and has a nuclear weapon. Pakistan will co-operate with the US to the extent that it can, but it isn’t in a position to give the Americans bin Laden’s head on a platter. They certainly won’t give the US carte blanche to operate freely and openly in Pakistan. That would be fatal for the Pakistani government as the people wouldn’t stand for it.

  So where does that leave us?

  NATO forces don’t have enough troops to pacify the country, nor do they have the means or public support to send enough to do so. The Hamid Karzai government is illegitimate and hopelessly corrupt. Like the Diem government of South Vietnam, it will never govern Afghanistan without the backing of Western military forces because, for the reasons previously mentioned, it will never be strong enough.

  However, that’s not to say the main reason we pull out is because we are incapable of doing the job. The reasons for being there in the beginning are extremely dubious.

  If Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda are such a threat to our security, why did the US invade Iraq and redeploy significant forces from Afghanistan? Weapons inspectors destroyed Saddam Hussein’s capability for developing weapons of mass destruction, a capability that was given to Saddam by the United States and its allies during the 1980s.

  Why is NATO now fighting the Taliban when they never attacked any Western country? Now, the mission has changed and we’ve involved ourselves in one side of a long-simmering civil war, one that has been going on since the Russians left. Some people say that if the Taliban return to power they will invite Al Qaeda back in. That is about as likely as the Domino Theory was applied to Vietnam — seeing a unified radical Muslim monolith just as Ho Chi Minh was seen to be part of a communist bloc with China and the Soviet Union. The Taliban’s goals are not the same as Al Qaeda’s. Inviting Al Qaeda back into Afghanistan at this point would actually be detrimental to the interests of the Taliban.

  Another excuse we’re given for being there is to protect human rights, particularly that of women. If that’s the case, why aren’t we invading other traditional Muslim countries that treat women similarly as the Taliban, such as Saudi Arabia? Why aren’t we invading Sudan over the genocide in Darfur? What about Burma, Zimbabwe, or North Korea? This argument simply doesn’t wash. It’s a rationale made up after the fact when the previous excuses are shown to be spurious at best.

  And when it comes to this point, the arguments in favour of continuing in the quagmire become ever thinner:

  * Talk to the people who really know what’s going on, those on the ground — the view is very limited to the soldier on the ground, they don’t see the big picture; if they did, morale would likely plummet.

  * Our troops want to go there, they are doing good — that may very well be true at an individual level, but there is no overall progress; opium production has soared and a growing number of Afghans see NATO forces as deadly occupiers, killing a growing number of innocent civilians.

  * Support our troops — that doesn’t mean we have to support the Harper government’s policies.

  * We don’t cut and run — that’s a loaded phrase without substance; you don’t keep doing something that is failing or wrong; that’s a definition of insanity.

  Afghanistan is currently a basket case because foreign powers have been continuously messing with it since the Soviet invasion. The ultimate solution will be a political one of the Afghans’ own making. As when the Americans left Vietnam, a civil war will undoubtedly continue before some sort of equilibrium is established. Then again, like Somalia, maybe it won’t. In any event, there won’t be any radical Muslims invading Canada. The best they can do is engage in terrorism. To put that into perspective, more people die in a year from traffic accidents.

• 66 Alex // Dec 1, 2009 at 4:49 pm

  I fully 110% agree with you. Here’s my recent post on reddit:

  http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/a9×4f/so_are_we_just_gonna_abandon_afghans_now/

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