Stop Saying “Sorry” When Vaccine Refusers Fall Sick or Die

The global death toll from Covid … officially … is more than 4.13 million; unofficially it could even be double that.

More than 192 Million across the world have been infected by Covid … so far.

Good people; innocent people; grandparents, parents, children cut down prematurely by a vicious virus, passed on to them silently and unwittingly over the past 18 months.

Impacting billions more … sent into mourning over the losses of loved ones or enduring the terrible pain and fright of watching so many fight a highly infectious foe that is only satisfied when it snuffs out a life.

And just think of the impact … physical and psychological … on the millions of first responders, hospital and rest home care staff and other essential workers all throughout society … too many of whom sacrificed their own lives in the struggle to save/help others.

While the only defence most of us had for more than a year was to self-distance, wear a mask, isolate, shut down our lives and livelihoods … or just hide.

Until the Covid vaccines came along.

Developed at warp speed, 24-hours, seven-days a week working under emergency research conditions, accelerated testing schedules … then approved so millions of doses could be manufactured at a cost of billions of dollars, acquired by governments at the cost of billions more … and then, administered FREE to those lucky enough to be able to get it.

A miraculous achievement!

And the Covid vaccines have very clearly worked.

In BC, where Covid infections in March regularly approached 1,000 NEW cases a day, the seven-day figure is now averaging 58; with only 46 people in hospital with Covid and 17 in ICU.

Because 80.3 % of British Columbians 12 years old and over have had at least one dose of a Covid vaccine; and, 58.1 per cent have received two doses.

The vaccines are working! Saving lives! Reducing illness! Allowing us to escape house arrest, to work, socialize, touch, hug … and get back to living!

However, that return to freedom is already under threat: Covid numbers are RISING again, due to increasing (and deadlier) variants thriving and spreading thanks to millions of people refusing to get vaccinated.

Idiots!

I’m not talking about people who, for medical reasons, cannot be vaccinated … but those who have soaked up Internet conspiracy theories, bought into rumours and speculation proffered by people even dumber than they are; and, those who just couldn’t care less about protecting their own health or that of anyone they come into contact with … anywhere.

Even though, numbers around the world are now showing daily that as high as 90% of people still getting seriously ill and dying from Covid where vaccines are available are now the UNVACCINATED.

All but 43 Texas COVID-19 deaths since February were unvaccinated people | The Texas Tribune.

COVID-19 cases in B.C. are up — but 78 per cent of new cases are among unvaccinated people | CBC News

80% of new COVID-19 cases in Spain among non-vaccinated people, health minister says | Reuters

They’re still not convinced?

Just think of where the world would be if these vaccine-vetoers were given free range a hundred years ago. Polio. Measles. Mumps. Chicken pox. Diphtheria. Rubella.

Now Covid.

The vaccines ARE working!

But without an even higher degree of vaccine compliance/success, Covid and its various variants will be with us for several years … especially if we allow the vaccine refusers to freely mix amongst us in close quarters, crowded rooms and large groups.

Do we just accept that? Or stop being so polite and start calling out those who are aiding and abetting Covid’s spread/survival?

Quite often, seems to me, it’s the same people who oppose vaccines who also refuse to wear masks, ignore self-distancing and party in crowds like nothing has changed since 2019.

Idiots!

Nevertheless, as I’ve written before, I still do NOT believe in MANDATING Covid vaccines: if someone does not want to be vaccinated, that IS their right.

However, they do NOT have the right to endanger, render ill or kill other people … by deliberately refusing the Covid vaccine or failing to follow Health Orders and then catching/mingling/passing the Covid virus on to others.

We who ARE vaccinated have a RIGHT to protect ourselves!

If non-vaxxers want respect: they must give it as well!

Store owners, restaurants, theatres, gyms, ANY private business/venue MUST have the right to require vaccines (masks too) in their PRIVATE premises … just as they also have the right to ban anyone smoking, not wearing a shirt or shoes.

Not just for customers, but staff too … especially those in restaurants, bars, rest homes, hospitals, transit.

To facilitate that, Provincial governments should issue Covid “Pass” cards to all vaccinated residents who have qualified for them … just like Drivers’ Licences, Passports etc. … voluntary, but valuable.

Until total vaccinations reaches full herd immunity levels that satisfy health authorities and science, Covid will NEVER be brought to its knees and our lives will NEVER return to “normal”.

To help achieve that, the rest of us should also stop pussyfooting around, being so polite to those offered the vaccine, but for no physician-directed personal medical reason, simply refuse to take it.

THEY are clearly much more vulnerable to catching the virus, endangering YOU if you come into contact and are preventing society from fully defeating Covid.

So let’s keep it real.

When we hear from family or friends that a deliberate vaccine-refuser gets terribly sick … or succumbs to Covid … we should stop saying “Sorry!”

What should we say?

I suggest instead: “Wow! What an idiot!”

I suspect even the vaccine-refuser victims, looking on from wherever they end up, would agree!

And maybe THAT will convince other non-vaxxers to realize how irresponsible they are being, and then get the shot, stay alive, help protect others … and stop Covid.

Harv Oberfeld

(Sad news: long-time Blog commenter Bob McQuillan (BCMQ) died Saturday. Agree or disagree with his views, everyone who reads this blog can agree BCMQ contributed an encyclopedia of information to our various topics and greatly added to the crucial discourse that is the lifeblood of democracy. R.I.P Bob. )

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79 Responses to Stop Saying “Sorry” When Vaccine Refusers Fall Sick or Die

  1. Not Sure says:

    1. I don’t know what to make of people who refuse to get vaccines. I didn’t get the vaccine solely to protect myself, but to protect my loved ones, my friends, neighbours, and community. The modelling suggested that there would be an increase in cases as we reopened (which has happened) but it is so telling that the increase is mostly in the unvaccinated.

    2. Sorry to read about BMCQ. Yes, we disagreed but it is important to hear the other side as it forced all of us to make our own point of view more convincing making the discussion more valuable and interesting.

    (Response: I am a great supporter of human rights: that’s why I still support non-vaxxers RIGHT to refuse. BUT they do not then also have the right to impose their decision, their vulnerability, their potential contagion on others: they should be required to stay away from crowded venues and certainly not be allowed to work in places where they are touching you or breathing right into your face. And yes, let’s start calling them what most of them (with allowances for those who medically can’t tolerate vaccines) are: self-centered, selfish idiots! h.o)

  2. helena handcart says:

    Very sad news that Big Bob has passed. First 13 and now BMCQ. I crossed swords with both of them many times and however much I disagreed with them, I always admired their passion and dedication to their beliefs. KIR will be a poorer place.

    (Response: I really hope that many more of the thousands who read this Blog, but never write in, will take up their fallen talking sticks and start contributing to our discussions. I can’t emphasize enough how important discussions are as part of our democratic processes. I know for sure KIR is well monitored by politicians at every level, government officials and the media: it is a GREAT place for people to make their views known to all those people. And if anyone has watched government policies, statements and actions shift and change over the past year or so, there’s NO doubt we on here do HAVE had an impact! 🙂 h.o)

  3. Stu de Baker says:

    Very little ever shocks me, but the passing of BMCQ did. Probably because he was so large, so out there, he couldn’t have possibly been either old enough, or ill enough to go yet.

    RIP, Mr. McQuillan, sir.
    ……………………………………………….

    What a great column Harvey; one I can’t imagine anyone disagreeing with.

    I have two personal acquaintances who are refusers; one I see and one I communicate with, long distance.

    The distant one knows how I feel and I know my words do nothing, so it is that elephant in the room. The one I see, perhaps twice a week, was a covid traveler and quarantine scofflaw. When we meet, I make it very clear I want her no closer than in another town. She thinks I’m the one with the loose screw, because I’m fully vaccinated and she is just fine.

    The problem I have with these folks is, I and our mutual friends know she is a risk to others and can avoid her. Dozens upon dozens of others are in daily contact with her and are unaware of the risk she is bearing.

    Yes, idiot!

    This thing is a long way from over. New Zealand has just shut down the travel bubble with Australia. Myanmar has no vaccines and bodies are appearing in the streets. Vietnam slammed the door shut in January 2020 and carried on uninfected until about six weeks ago. Now they are into mandatory testing, under less than ideal conditions, total lockdowns in Hanoi and Saigon and fines for being outside your home.

    Our numbers are creeping up and we will soon be seeing US citizens in our midst, without a clear message how “fully vaccinated” will be proven.

    I agree, anyone serving the public, should have the right to demand proof, or deny service.

    (Response: The problem is our politicians and Health Authorities have been pussyfooting around TOO MUCH trying to be so politically correct so as to not offend the IDIOTS amongst us! I get it: even I like to be polite: sometimes when I travel, laughing or crying inside as I listen to some seat mate on a plane or at dinner on a ship, spew … not just differing opinions (I actually often enjoy that) but stuff that is just NUTS!! I don’t argue, because what’s the point? And also I’m aware they’ll be out of my life very shortly. BUT Covid is different: just a moment with a deliberately unvaxxed idiot who has never worn a mask, likes big parties and even if feeling ill, coughs without covering their mouths can be FATAL for the rest of us. There nothing in ANY law I know that REQUIRES us to put up with that …and it’s time for our weak politicians and health officers to stop painting all of society with punishments, but go after the IDIOTS … and keep THEM away from the rest of us! h.o)

  4. Marge says:

    Before commenting on the latest blog entry, I just wanted to pass on my condolences to BCMQ’s family. He was a passionate writer and I enjoyed reading his entries. I hope his family can be proud of all that he accomplished through his business and through his writings. He really cared about the city of Vancouver and Canada as a whole. He will be missed here.

    As for vaccinations. I got my first shot because I teach in one of the worst infected areas of the province. We were vaccinated way ahead of everyone else. I was a bit concerned as they told us we were getting Astra Zenica and because I’ve had blood clots many years ago, I was wary of this vaccine. I contacted my doctor about it but before you knew it, they had switched to Pfizer so I was good to go. I am now fully vaccinated as is my husband. He had to get a mix of Pfizer and Moderna so wasn’t happy about the mix but did get it. He actually phoned me from the vaccination centre so ask if he should go with the Moderna or come home and wait for Pfizer. I told him not to bother coming home if he decided against the Moderna!!
    Even though I was one of the lucky teachers who taught virtually throughout the whole pandemic, I still had to go to various schools, so I knew how important being vaccinated was. My daughter and her family who live in Washington State have been completely vaccinated way before we were. An interesting sideline is that even though she can come visit us in August, the Canadian government is requiring that she be tested 72 hours before crossing the border and have proof of it at the border.

    Most friends and colleagues have been vaccinated. However; I have friends who are refusing to get vaccinated. Most of these are “church” types, who believe somehow that the vaccine is going to change their DNA (not possible if you have any scientific knowledge) or goes against their church beliefs! I don’t think they believe they will contract COVID but will somehow be kept safe from it. Other people I know have severe health issues and believe that the vaccine will make their condition worse. I don’t know what would convince these people otherwise. I have tried many things but so far no luck.

    (Response: As I wrote in my Blog piece, if there are some who cannot be vaccinated for scientifically/medically established reasons, no problem. BUT the impression I get is most of the anti-vaxxers oppose it based on suspicion, opinion, misinformation, religious mumbo jumbo or even politics. Idiots! If we don’t want to force vaccines on them … so be it; let them stay unvaccinated … and much more likely get Covid, become very sick and maybe even die. Big deal! That’s on them. However they have NO right to make others sick …and the rest of us also have rights: and science/statistics now show THEY are so vulnerable to the variants, keep them OUT of schools, restaurants, hospitals, bars, theatres (cruise ships!!) etc. … just as we bar those with TB, measles, mumps, chicken pox , bird flue and ebola. h.o)

  5. D. M. Johnston says:

    Remember Polio?

    Remember movies of the hiss, click-clank of the “Iron Lung”?

    Remember the fear, no birthday parties, no swimming; remember the children in wheelchairs and leg braces going to school?

    No? Well the Salk vaccine ended that horror, yet we have anti-vaxers gaining airtime, spewing their dated clap trap.

    Vaccines are not Thalidomide a proprietary drug that caused major tragedies, but carefully crafted disease killers.

    The new mNRA vaccines have been in long development, but the Covid-19 emergency, rushed forward mass development of this new breed vaccine and it seems to work, for now.

    Our family have all been “Phizered” yet the anti-science mob that seems to get air time have completely distorted the facts to suit their lunatic beliefs. Add to this the religious anti-vaxers and we now have “Houston, we have a problem” moment.

    My neighbor, who is in the medical bureaucracy, told me horror stories with the anti-vaxer crowd, abetted by American conspiracy shows, notably on FOX News and other extremely right wing networks. Some of that rubbish does filter North of the 49th.

    She added that the death toll is far more than what has been reported in the news as many GOP/Republican states did not or would not admit to covid deaths.

    This forth wave now hitting the USA like the apocalypse is infecting many of those in the 40%, mostly right wing/Republican demographic and those who have been left out of the vaccine program.

    Canada has had a good response for taking the vaccine, but sadly there are those who with either questionable politcal and or religious beliefs, and believe that not taking a vaccine is their right.

    No its not. It is our duty as a Canadian to take the vaccine as it was my dad’s duty to join the navy in WW2. It is called citizenship, something that our current politicians seem to want to ignore.

    Together we can fight this bug and it is a battle we must win!

    Remember Polio? We won that battle; smallpox too; and many more nasty diseases that brought fear into every family.

    (Response: We, the vast majority, have become hostages at the hands of political correctness and some of the weakest “leadership” our democracy has ever seen. Minority activists and anarchists have our politicians (and media) so running scared, they cave in to every pressure group. Most of time, that just costs the majority public money … hundreds of millions, but just dollars. With Covid and the anti-vaxxer, anti-masking idiots, we are sacrificing knowledge and science … and our health and lives … so we don’t alienate and/or confront the nuts! Time for leaders to be leaders; time for government to govern …and protect the majority from the politicized extremists or just the lunatic fringe. h.o)

  6. D. M. Johnston says:

    Re: BCMQ

    Condolences to his family on this untimely death.

    His take on issues was important, though I seldom agreed with him, but here lies the basic question, a true democracy hears from all sides, something that is not allowed in Canada these days.

    We need more like him, just to keep the debate honest and as I said on another blog; “Time to mount up and face the challenge, a la Lord of the Rings!”

  7. elle says:

    This is a very difficult topic for me. I feel we have been lied to so much during the whole of the pandemic that no one really knows the truth. First masks were no good and we were racist to ask the borders be closed. We had no vaccines and then we had a lot of different ones that had spotty delivery. We were told to take whatever we were offered and then astrazenica was only for certain groups and then other groups. You could take it and you couldn’t and then you could mix and match it and then you shouldn’t. People are getting all kinds of strange reactions and it is not widely reported. We were told that the science told us that it was safe to wait 4 months for second doses even though we had not even had vaccines for that long, so how could they have done any research into the benefits or not of spreading doses out that long. Most of the people in my family have gotten the two vaccines (of various types) but we all have scepticism. No one knows what the long-term effects will be because we haven’t had the vaccines long enough to know that. We are (as you say) doing it for the good(hopefully) of the vulnerable. This has been a great experiment and we can only hope that we haven’t done some irreparable damage to a whole lot of people.

    (Response: You raise REAL problems we’ve had with the Covid right from the start: lack of information; wrong information; changing information … it has not been easy for anyone: doctors, scientists, health officials, politicians, patients, their families, media. Slowly but surely, however, we ALL have come to know, understand, fear and fight this terrible killer Covid virus. And the science is showing we CAN beat it; we can hinder it’s progress; we can self-distance, use masks and when we can get vaccinate … inoculate against it. We really have made tremendous progress in a relatively short time … but now, we have hit a big obstacle: idiots who willingly ignore the science, think it’s all politics or the vaccine is designed to plant microchips inside us and therefore refuse take it and also often to do anything to stop/hinder the spread; and in fact demand they be allowed to mingle in great numbers, not wear masks … even if they can be spreading Covid to their own family members, neighbours, co-workers, transit riders, theatre goers, restaurant staff or fellow patrons. NO! We do NOT have to take that! Our “leaders” MUST protect society from the idiots! Plain and simple. h.o)

  8. HARRY LAWSON says:

    Harvey.

    I am not able to get the vaccination yet due to my health .I can’t even get a flu shot . My doctor wants to see the side effects.

    I am not a anti vaccer however very concerned about the long term affects. In my case the fire may be worst than the illness. If my doctor says to for it I will.

    I was really saddened to of BCMQ passing. We agreed,we disagree . Sometimes after reading BCMQ I knew I had blood pressure.
    He was never afraid to ask the hard questions. or take a position that was unpopular.

    Our paths crossed many times ,I will truly miss his postings

    I also wonder how Harvey will fill in the time he use to have to edit BOb

    (Response: Bob could be a “challenge” ..especially when I would “edit” two or three paragraphs out, even if left the other dozens in! LOL! We often exchanged notes off the website: really enjoyed hearing from him. And we even had lunch one day… great fun!! Already missing his contribution/reaction to today’s topic! h.o)

  9. Gilbert says:

    I was shocked to read that Bob is no longer with us. I really enjoyed reading his posts. No one can deny that he was a very passionate contributor who shared so much information with us.

    Regarding the vaccines, I have health issues and objections. I don’t want an MRNA vaccine or one that is morally compromised (connected to abortion) With conventional vaccines, we know that if you’re injected in the shoulder, the vaccine stays in the shoulder. With these new and rushed vaccines, however, they spread throughout the body. Dr. Malone, the inventor of the MRNA vaccine, was surprised this is the case. If I need to be vaccinated, I’ll opt for a vaccine like Novovax, a conventional vaccine with no connection to abortion.

    (Response: I hope other readers, currently in read-only mode, will step up and put forward points of views that continue BMCQ’s legacy of democratic participation. As for the vaccines, people should be able to opt for whichever approved vaccine they prefer: the important thing is to protect yourself …and those who come anywhere near you …from the killer virus. h.o)

  10. r says:

    mmr dpt shots all before your in high school.
    I have a small pox shot mark on my shoulder.
    if your not getting vaccine for yourself then do it for your family safety.

    (Response: Exactly! And keep those who refuse away from the rest of us! h.o)

  11. Art Smith says:

    Hi Harvey, so sorry to hear of the passing of BMCQ, condolences to the family. I for one will sorely miss his opinions as I mostly agreed with what he had to say on many varied topics, although I must admit to skimming some of the longer ones.
    The acquisition, roll out and distribution, the questions of the efficacy of the vaccines, the questions about the brands of vaccines themselves, the times between shots and many other things have led a lot of people to wonder about the wisdom of getting the shots, and I don’t blame them.
    I myself, am fully vaccinated, mostly because I didn’t trust the government to not institute all kinds of draconian laws and protocols to keep everybody in line, which is starting to show up already. I think most of us are hoping we made the right decision.

    (Response: I agree it was not all handled well: I certainly wrote several blogs about that. And I have always contended the SCIENCE …not politics, political correctness should determine policies and practices …not always done, in my view. BUT science/stats now clearly show Covid vaccinations work … help prevent serious illness and deaths. That’s all I need to see! Shoot me up … even with another booster if needed … and keep those who refuse to vaccinate well away from me!! The cost of failure … due to weak governments letting non-vaxxed idiots run amok amongst the rest of us in close quarters would be devastating …in terms of health, lives and shutdowns f the economy ad society again. NO! Shut out the idiots instead! h.o)

  12. e.a.f. says:

    Condolences to BMCQ’s family. He will be missed. Certainly enjoyed his points of view and our differences of opinion. The world will be a sadder place without him. When reading his comments you got the impression he really lived life. It is profoundly saddening to know he won’t be commenting anymore.

  13. Keith says:

    To BMCQs family and friends, heartfelt condolences, peace and love. His points of view, agree or not will be sorely missed by us all.

    There was a drawing for want of a better description doing the rounds a while back where a small child asked mum, “what’s that mark on your arm”? mum replied, “ one of the reasons you are here”.

    This is a list of most mainstream religions and their positions on vaccinations.

    https://www.vumc.org/health-wellness/news-resource-articles/immunizations-and-religion

    Did a bit of snooping, the most common religious anti vaxxers seem to be the religious conservatives, or those where the preacher usually has a rolex and private plane, asking the sheep to – “praise the lord, send 10 bucks” and they send 20.

    You mentioned this in the post Harvey;

    “To facilitate that, Provincial governments should issue Covid “Pass” cards to all vaccinated residents who have qualified for them”

    to that point, that’s what the Govt. of Manitoba is doing to an extent. Fully vaccinated fans can go to the Blue Bombers and other outdoor large scale events with proof of being fully vaccinated, applied for on the Provinces website.

    https://www.gov.mb.ca/covid19/vaccine/immunization-record.html

    https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/blue-bombers-get-green-light-to-have-fully-vaccinated-fans-at-game-in-august-1.5509113

    If it’s possible to get proof of full vaccination in Manitoba it shouldn’t be a problem for the rest of the provinces to have a similar programme, and that would give business and other organizations the cover to restrict anyone without govt. issued proof or a medical exemption.

    It is exasperating to see these people denying the science and hard evidence of the benefits of the jab after 18 months of worldwide consistent evidence of what goes right, and what goes wrong. However, it is a recognizable affliction, it’s called the Dunning Kruger affect. Or in short, to clueless to realize one is clueless.

    https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740

    (Response: Society gets into REAL trouble when we let a minority … using religion, unproven theories by individuals, not backed by clinical trials/studies or just following the rants of political and media demagogues … exert control over the rest of society! It’s nuts! But so far they are getting away with it because of weak politicians and bureaucrats deferring to political correctness and fear of confrontation, taking a hard stand and making hard decisions needed to protect the gains we’ve made … and continue forward, not backward. h.o)

  14. Jane Burkart says:

    My condolences to BMCQ’s family .. his posts will be missed
    I believe the mask mandate was dropped prematurely.. the folks choosing to go unvaccinated are a dangerous selfish breed.. putting the compromised in a difficult position.
    During this pandemic, I’ve lost several people close to me. I witnessed a friends final days over an Ipad that the kind nurses at St. Pauls set up for me.. it was heartbreaking and still haunts me.
    The reason I’m convinced mask mandate was dropped too quickly.. my fully vaccinated, masked grandchild is currently in quarantine after testing positive, because a non vaccinated co worker felt it was their right to go mask less.
    Its become apparent to me, even with double vax.. we still aren’t totally safe ..
    Dix and DBH jumped the gun IMHO … putting many of us at risk..

    (Response: Thanks for this. I agree the mask mandate was dropped prematurely: I still wear one … not just inside stores etc … but when I am anywhere near people I don’t know well, passing those walking on a forest trail or when I see a cyclist or runner coming close or whirling by. And Covid numbers seem to be on the rebound, so I would not be surprised to see Dr Henry pull back from the present rules. But the BIG move they have to make is to PROTECT vaccinated people from the unvaccinated…or they risk losing all the progress we have made. h.o)

  15. G. Barry Stewart says:

    I’m shocked to hear of Bob’s passing. My condolences to his family and friends.

    What a larger-than-life character he must have been, judging by his presence on this blog.

    It took a few minutes of digging to find the first time Bob rode in with his wrecking ball. It was during the 2014 teachers’ strike, with 141 responses… many of them Bob’s.

    Larry Bennett was still here — and even ’13’ was taken aback by this brash newcomer, with the run on paragraphs and pre-Trump whacKY wAy of TYpinG.

    Some clips:

    Bob: “HO – My spelling is fine I am just always in a hurry and do not but should proof read.
    As to my Censored two words, Just attempting to be descriptive when making a point. Do not want people to think I was being nasty. That certainly was not intended.
    Thanks,”

    13: “I will need to take more time off of work inorder to keep up with BM?Qs points. While I agree with most of his right wing thoughts and observations I am somehow annoyed by his style of delivering them in a sermon like fashion. So I was going to comment on BMOQ s arrogant attitude when whamo Morry leaps out from behind a rock and deems 75% of the posters on Harveys blog are ignorant of the facts. All of a sudden BMOQ seems less arrogant. I try very hard to read every comment especially the comments from the far left NDP types. I find that commenters that I really disagree with are the most interesting to read. I seldom find the commenters on this blog to be ignorant.”

    BMCQ: “H.O. Please do not make any attempt to compare BCTF Members to Surgeons. I know some Surgeons and I know some BCTF Members, I am afraid that is quite a STRETCH!!
    I am new to your Blog and find it interesting but your Politicvs are muh too obvious.”

    Classic BMCQ: “Hopeless Drug Addicts. i DO KNOW WHAT i AM TALKING ABOUT. yOU TALK ABOUT THE mENTALLY iLL. aSK ANY dR. FACT IS MOST OF THOSE mENTALLY DOWN THERE ARE mENTALLY BECAUSE OF THE pSYCHOSIS triggered BY THEIR ABUSE OF HARD dRUGS.”

    And: “Sorry, I do not proof read, probably should.
    Have I made any friends here as yet?”

    No… I don’t think you made ANY friends on that first visit, Bob — but you kind of grew on us, after seven years. This place will NoT bE the sAMe WItHout yoU!

    Peace.

    For a stroll into the past: http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/the-trouble-with-teachers/#comments

    (Response: Thanks. Fun memories; great discussions! h.o)

  16. G. Barry Stewart says:

    Re Gilbert’s concerns about COVID vaccines being related to abortions: I’m not sure if he is Catholic (as I am) but the Vatican has given its approval for Catholics to get vaccinated. Info here: https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

    As well, Dr. Malone is not generally regarded as the “inventor” of the MRNA vaccine.

  17. G. Barry Stewart says:

    I keep in touch with a former student through Facebook and she is firmly against getting a COVID vaccine, as she is confident that she has a strong immune system that will only get stronger by experiencing the illness.

    It may be stemming from her Jehovah’s Witness upbringing, though she hasn’t said so. She’s firmly entrenched and does not understand why a “99% recovery rate” has people so worried. (She understands that people with weaker immune systems don’t have as good a chance at surviving.)

    I would in no way think of her as an “idiot” or even selfish. She is highly principled on the issue… if misguided.

    Having said that: if proof of vaccination will bring us privileges… should proof of having been infected also bring the same privileges? Are we only going to accept “lab-induced antibodies” — or should “naturally-gained antibodies” also be accepted?

    Asking for a friend, as I’m fully “Moderna-ized.”

    (Response: As I’ve stated, I support people’s RIGHT to refuse … although I think they ARE idiots! So I support her right … BUT she has NO right to IMPOSE her willingness to risk infection on others, expose seniors and health-compromised individuals to HER risk, grocery workers, etc. and test HER willingness to carry the virus into stores, theatres, restaurants in the “belief” she will develop immunity. While others around her may get very sick or die? Very selfish! h.o)

  18. RIsaak says:

    Sad to hear of Big Bob’s passing. Though long winded, one could see the give a dam very clearly in many of his posts, RIP & condolences to his family.

    Covid from a hillbilly (2x vaxxed one) perspective in the smokey, burning interior.
    I recently saw that apart from the far north region (peace) I live in the least vaccinated region of BC. First off please understand the very differing risks seen in rural areas compared to the cities. Our supermart sees max 160 transactions a day, one my daughter counted for me in Richmond had 590 vehicles in 90 mins. When Albertans were told to stay away last summer the highway across the valley was just as quiet as it is today with it being closed 16kms away by a fire and only local traffic allowed. Pandemic got a shutdown of folks, yet we still see no backcountry closure (like 4 years ago) while some of our fires burn and Farnworth & Horgan dither to allow some city folks to go camping after the pandemic? This is just to show some of the differences between thoughts of city dwellers (most of you) & us rural folks.

    I lost a care home confined, seriously ill, brother to the pandemic, I got the realities immediately. Knowing his wife had to watch from outside the room through a puny window as he passed has irritated me to no end.

    Risks in our hamlet were far less than city dwellers, most of our workforce ( farmers, loggers, millworkers) were deemed essential so by percentage far less cerb recipients. These differences seldom enter the minds of city dwellers, but are the daily realities us few who kept on going due to being deemed essential. The fact our forestry & tourism jobs are now threatened by wildfires with only a small amount of curtailment of risky behavior by city folks (none of it from public safety Ministry) while our once deemed essential jobs go up in smoke & turn to ash is perplexing. I suppose the NDP mla from Lumby will be a one term wonder?

    I know fervent anti- vaxxers, I know folks who broke down the door to get vaxxed (I waited a bit to see what reactions were and then rolled up the sleeve), I know folks from both sides of the equation, like all of them, but personally will not allow my mind to be confined by vax status of anyone I know, this new vax/antivax dichotomy is further wedging us apart, just like almost all differences between rural & urban life seem to be.

    Have an 11am appointment to get my anti vax neighbour’s kid to, his mom wont take him, I already took him for his first awhile ago. The neighbours are split on vax ( she won’t, he did & their kid asked me to take him because his Mom won’t) & their kid wishes to have a normal grad in 10 months.

    (Response: One of the good things about this Blog is we can all learn from the discussions …including me. When I read your comment, I shared your impression re: “the very differing risks seen in rural areas compared to the cities.” Sure…so few people across such large areas, compared to crowds in cities. Unfortunately, the virus …especially the variants which spread through the air on a wisp… seems unaware of the difference. From the BC Centre for Disease Control:” Of all positive samples tested in epi week 28 (Jul 11 – Jul 17) in BC, ~ 97% were confirmed Variants of Concern). VOC prevalence was similar across Health Authorities, except in Vancouver Coastal Health, where it was lower, at 80%.” LOWER in Vancouver Coastal! Sure surprised me! Maybe because the vaccination rate is HIGHER? Here’s the link:
    http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/VoC/VoC_weekly_07232021.pdf. This is scary stuff .. especially when people do travel in and out .. because we know that once someone brings it into small communities, it can spread like wildfire. And in those areas, it’s even more difficult than in the cities to avoid those who refuse to get vaccinated. The figures show these selfish. self-centered people (maybe not even realizing it) put everyone else at risk! h.o)

    • Lance Boyle says:

      I pray the neighbour’s son that you have taken and will take again for the mRNA therapeutic does not have any serious adverse events.
      Because that would be on YOU.

  19. nonconfidencevote says:

    Shocking news about BMCQ.
    Sad for the family and friends.
    That will take some time to get used to.

    I had a few beers with an old ex co worker on Saturday night.
    I casually asked if he had the 2nd vaccine yet.
    “I wont put that $**t in my body! It’s got tracking devices in it.”
    On and on and on he rambled about conspiracies, New World Order, etc etc etc.

    Absolutely bizarre.
    I tried explaining and was repeatedly shut down with more internet conspiracy drivel.

    I noticed that the US govt is looking to sue Facebook and Twitter if these unverifiable videos and podcasts continue.

    Censorship?
    Not really.
    Just like you cant jokingly yell “Fire” in a crowded theater… You shouldnt be able to debunk vaccines unless you’re a accredited scientist.

    (Response: I respect the right of people to hold and express their views … as bizarre as they may be … providing they don’t incite violence or violate hate laws etc. BUT that idiot, sitting there unvaccinated, without a mask, bellowing out his stupidity … if unknowingly carrying the virus (who knows???) … could have infected you, the others at your table, the next table, the server and indirectly the bartender …and all their families before they get detected a week from now. Vaccine passes would protect us! Let him drink at home, in the company of friends, and other idiots, via the Internet. h.o)

  20. OldIslander says:

    The news of BCMQ was indeed a shock — my condolences to his family and especially his wife who checked in here from time to time. As others have said, I agreed and disagreed with him on any number of topics, but he always had an interesting opinion. Whenever someone posted something controversial, I always wondered, ‘Hmmmm, what’s BCMQ going to say about this.’ There is an obit and nice photo of him at Puget Sound Radio, here:

    https://www.pugetsoundradio.com/2021/07/24/our-friend-and-contributor-bcmq-aka-bob-mcquillan-passed-away-saturday-morning/

    Thanks for letting us know.

    The most shocking aspect of the anti-vaxers to me is how in the US, it has been so politicized along right/left lines. Many of the talking heads on FOX news openly criticized and perpetuated ignorant conspiracy theories. But I notice since Biden’s comment that they’re killing people, and since the daily numbers have started to climb in the US, FOX finally realized how bad they look, and have been backing off on their BS. And in some of the worst states where new waves of COVID are taking off, the vaccination rates are slowly climbing again.

    But it’s probably too little, too late. It seems that both the US and Canada have enough ignorant citizens, that it’s going to be a long haul eliminating this virus, if ever.

    (Response: Received the following from a long-time friend of BMCQ: “I have just spoken again to Lynn, Bob’s wife, she would like anyone who was going to send flowers, in lieu of flowers, Bob and Lynn had a great passion for horses ,Bob helped a lot of people and causes over the years and wanted no credit or thankyous ,one of those was the Horse Protection Society of BC .please go to their website to Donate or e transfer admin@hps4horses.org Thankyou ”

    As for politicization of the vaccine in the US … yes, and that is the greatest idiocy of all …especially with 600,000 dead so far … and infections starting to climb again! Let’s keep it real: even before Covid, almost any Canadian who travelled south/ talked to Americans came back wondering how such a great, advanced, successful country could have so many stupid people!!! The politics surrounding Covid has proven that…. again. I believe Fox News’s coverage (“news” as well as opinion shows) helped KILL Americans. Lately, I too have noticed SOME Fox pullback (not much though) but I don’t think that is as much due to some admission that Biden is right as much as it is Fox being worried that infection figures among the idiots is rising so fast, a HUGE shutdown of the economy (affecting Fox advertisers and revenues) could hit by Fall unless a lot more get vaccinated. h.o)

  21. K.G.P says:

    Great read H.O.

    Love how blunt you are calling them idiots. THAT’S WHAT THEY ARE, and that’s how they should be treated. You’re 100% right that people have the right to their body, their health and what they put inside them. However, they should not have the right and privilege that those willing to get vaccinated do. I do feel bad for the ones who can’t receive the vaccine due to legitimate health concerns. All the more reason for those of us who can get the vaccine do so to help the ones who can’t out.
    I suspect the morons worried about microchips are so far out to lunch it’s not even worth having a debate with them on the topic. I’m sure if that’s what the government was trying to do they would just start slipping them in cheese burgers at fast food restaurants (not bashing fast food, I eat more than I should).

    BMCQ – I learned of his sudden passing through my mother the day before my father’s, “13’s”, celebration of life.
    I was supposed to meet him that day for the first time.
    I haven’t been on this blog a long time as I only started reading it when my sick father had mentioned that he had been writing in it for a long time. Reading through the old blogs you could tell that BMCQ was incredibly passionate, extremely bold and very heart felt. He put everything into what he believed no matter what people thought of him.
    I was so looking forward to meeting him and telling him a about a story from when my father was in the hospital that I thought he would have gotten a kick out of:

    As my father was laying in the hospital bed in pain but still relatively there mentally I had mention to him that I had been reading back on a lot of the old KIR blogs.
    I had mention to him that his buddy BMCQ sure posts an aweful lot.
    My father managed to utter out the words ” Did you see how he’s wrong about everything” before he began slipping in and out of consciousness.
    I will never get to tell him that story now and that makes me sad.

    To BMCQ’s family I wish my deepest condolences and I know he and my father are up there arguing, laughing and bullsh$tting about anything and everything.

    RIP

    (Response: Thank you Ken. As I had indicated at his passing, your father Doug (13), and Bob, were both great contributors to our democratic process. Especially when they agreed with me! 🙂 We had many great discussions ..even when we disagreed ..and any news junkie, watching what goes on to people like us elsewhere in the world, really appreciates what we can do/say here.

    As for the morons … or idiots …they seem related all over the world … intellectually, if not genetically. And society today is far too complicated and dangerous to keep pandering to their stupidity. We should respect their rights … but we too have rights and it’s about time the politicians and health authorities started putting the majority first … and curbing any attempts by the idiots … knowingly or through their ignorance … to spread Covid. h.o)

  22. jay says:

    Harvey,
    If you listened or watched hte news when the vaccine was first talked about, almost every US channel was calling it a hoax or that it was not going to work or may even kill people because it was rushed. It was Trump fantasy. Couple that with all the misinfo related to masks and isolation and this and that and what were people to believe?

    Also remember that there have been variants popping up like wildfire and no one knows if the current vaccine will work against them.
    If it is anything like the flu then we will need a vaccine every year.
    As a paramedic I don’t chastise those who are sceptical about the vaccine and not in a conspiracy tinfoil hat kinda way. There have been many side effects that would make anyone question the safety of these vaccines.
    Your premise of not saying sorry is quite sad really. No one wants to get sick, but everyone wants bodily autonomy. We don’t lock up people who don’t or can’t get a flu shot. How many don’t get an update for MMR, tetanus and every other shot they got as kids? How many don’t get the Hep A/B shot or a pneumovac shot?

    Hysteria does not help here. Blame does not help. Threats of detention or being basically kicked out of society does not help.

    re BCMQ

    My thoughts are with his family. We had our battles but I always respected his opinions. Rest in peace.

    (Response: I find it a little incredulous that someone with your professional background and experience would compare Covid to the flu. Ridiculous! Better review the SCIENCE! And no one is calling for the unvaxxed to be “locked up” … typical wacko dishonesty, alarmism like the idiot fringe circulates on the Internet … worthy more of Tucker Carlson than a BC paramedic. h.o)

    • John's Aghast says:

      I don’t deem it necessary to go to the defense of Jay, but perhaps his comparison of Covid to the flu was to having to renew shots on an annual basis?

      re BMCQ. RIP. Time for me to bury the hatchet. We were beginning to tolerate one another.

      (Response: I hope that is what he meant: I would agree with that. I think the Covid shot will become an annual thing …at least for a while. My main point is keep the deliberately unvaxxed well away from crowded places …to protect the health/lives of servers, staff, customers. h.o)

  23. Gilbert says:

    I find the intolerance towards those who are unvaccinated sad. Of course it’s easy to blame those who don’t want the vaccines. The pandemic has created pharmaceutical billionaires. How many members of the media sit on the boards of pharmaceutical countries? There are probably many.

    I used to work for a pharmaceutical company in Japan. I asked the researchers if there was interest in developing a malaria vaccine. They said there was none because malaria was confined to the developing world and thus wouldn’t generate enough profit.

    Israel’s health minister has said vaccines alone are not the solution. In the last 4 weeks, 75% of coronavirus cases in Singapore were from vaccinated people. Without question, vaccinated people can also infect others.

    Where do the variants come from? Does the virus need to mutate to infect an unvaccinated person? Dr. Luc Montaigner, a Nobel Prize laureate, has spoken about this.

    One of my friends, who has autoimmune disorder, got fully vaccinated. He’s had severe fatigue since his first dose. My brother-in-law, who had already had the coronavirus and as a result, must have natural antibodies, said he felt he had caught the coronavirus a second time.

    If the coronavirus came from a lab, can a conventional vaccine eliminate it? Do we need a genetically engineered vaccine for a genetically engineered virus? Why can’t China produce an effective vaccine? Can westerners prduce a better vaccine than the Chinese ones?

    Zinc and vitamin D are excellent sources of protection from the virus. They’re cheap and safe. I’m not so sure we can say the same about the vaccines.

    (Response: It’s not “intolerance” to avoid people much more prone to be carrying malaria or tuberculosis or ebola. It’s being prudent and protecting yourself, workers, grandparents, kids. Take a look at the stats: people who are UNVACCINATED are now BY FAR the most frequent Covid victims and carriers. By what law or rule or nonsensical reasoning is it acceptable to expose so many others to such suffering … and possibly mourning … just so unvaxxed refusenik idiots can walk, circulate and cough amongst us?? Total OFFICIAL Covid world death toll 4.16 million; total US death toll 611,000 … many statisticians believe REAL figures are much higher. Time to STOP it … and one of the best way is to keep vulnerable deliberately unvaxxed in their own bubble. ho.)

  24. Stu de Baker says:

    Wow, one last look before heading for bed and I read your reply to Jay.
    My jaw hit my chest with such a wallop, the pain will cause me to lie awake all night.

    Jay didn’t compare Covid to the flu and the rest of your attack, because someone disagreed with you, makes me wonder where all the discourse, harmony and democracy you have mentioned so many times throughout the blog piece, and hold so dearly, disappeared to.

    (Response: As a paramedic, I have given Jay extra space to express himself on related matters. But when a paramedic writes “If it is anything like the flu then we will need a vaccine every year,” I must object STRONGLY. “Like the flu”??? If there is one thing doctors, scientists, paramedics wearing hazmat suits …and the 4.13 million DEAD people have learned, Covid is NOT “anything like the flu”. And for whatever reason, some of the other pap he spouted (“Threats of detention” …by who? Where?) are just crap and play right into the hands of the anti-vax idiots on the Internet and deserve to be called out loudly and publicly. h.o)

  25. Lance Boyle says:

    “We who ARE vaccinated have a RIGHT to protect ourselves!”

    So, Harvey, what you are saying is the vaccine DOES NOT WORK. Really, do tell me how to read this any other way.

    If you truly believed the vaccine works, then you would not even be writing this article. However, all those years you have had rubbing elbows with politicians, media people, corporations, advertisers, public officials, including public health officials you know better than most of us is that they all lie. Through their teeth. And you know that right from the get-go, that there are a lot of things that have been going on for the past year and a half that are not kosher. They don’t add up. They don’t pass the smell test.
    And because of that, you are afraid. $hitting-your-pants afraid. The stories change all the time. Masks, no masks. Flights from China to YVR OK, not OK. Ventilators, ventilators, until found out ventilators lead to worse outcomes. mRNA vax does not immunize but it “protects” because you can still get virus but get less sick. Herd immunity when 80%. No wait now its 90% Tomorrow 95% The day after 105%.
    I get it Harvey. You are so afraid for yourself, that you are willing to support the push to get 2 year old’s to get the experimental mRNA shot.
    I will use the “sorry” term Harvey. Sorry to hear you are so afraid. Sorry to see that you have become the very thing that you used to expose and fight so hard for on our behalf when you were a journalist.

    (Response: To the contrary: the vaccine DOES work. There have been MANY studies/statistics now that show infection rates drop dramatically amongst vaccinated people. BUT that does not make it impossible to get Covid … especially a new variant … without it … just that the likelihood you will require hospitalization or die is HUGELY reduced. I suggest you read this: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/two-doses-of-pfizer-astrazeneca-shots-effective-against-delta-variant-study-finds-1.5518249 AND https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection.

    The biggest danger now are unvaxxed people … who MANY statistics/studies show much more easily contract Covid and then spread it around. Everyone should be vaxxed (as we did with polio, TB etc) and the “developed” world MUST help others to achieve this. And where vaccines are available, but misinformed or just plain idiots refuse to get it, they should not be given free range to spread it: keep them out of restaurants, bars, gyms, theatres and off airplanes, cruise ships too!!! h.o)

    • Lance Boyle says:

      If you believe the experimental vaccine works then why are you so worried? You tell me that even if you get the coronavirus, as someone who has gotten the experimental mRNA therapeutic, your chances of hospitalization and death are reduced.
      Why are you so worried? Is it because the studies you point out to do acknowledge that the so-called vaccinated are not only capable of contracting the coronavirus but are also capable of infecting others. Including vaccinated.

      Unvaccinated can pass on to unvaccinated.
      Unvaccinated can pass on to vaccinated
      Vaccinated can pass on to unvaccinated
      Vaccinated can pass on to vaccinated.

      So, get vaccinated so you can protect exactly who? OK OK. It’s B.C. Logic and reasoning does not apply. Only fear and feels.

      • nonconfidencevote says:

        @ Lanced Boil

        One would assume you’re not vaxxed?

        Then you won’t mind if I’m allowed to complain when you end up in the intensive care unit, which will cost us vaxxed taxpayers thousands of dollars per day to keep your obstinate butt out of a coffin?

        Selfishly stupid doesnt even begin to describe your line of “reasoning”………

  26. Stu de Baker says:

    HO; “…deserve to be called out loudly and publicly…”
    I agree 100% and that is exactly why I said what I did.

    I believe, for whatever reason, you have completely misread Jay’s words and intent.
    I fear another worthy contributor may just have been chased off.

    (Response: I never censor my remarks on this blog for fear that “another worthy contributor may just have been chased off.” That’s why it’s called Keeping it Real and why thousands read it regularly….not bad for just a hobby. Let those who want political correctness and niceties go to the mainstream media! 🙂 h.o)

  27. john says:

    Looks like Jay and I are in agreement again.

    Plus: a few other thoughts re COVID:
    why were we not encouraged to take vitamin d and zinc to possibly prevent being sick if we got COVID?
    Why are two promising treatments for COVID not being used – ivermectin and hydroxy chloroquine (both were cheap to produce so there is no profit to big pharma).
    Why does the media not present the true facts about masks and lockdowns

    (Response: Why? why? why … to a lot of things. Easy to armchair quarterback from afar a year later: but we now KNOW hydroxy chloroquine (or injecting bleach or ultraviolet rays and other stupidities put forward by the crazies) did NOT work as a preventative at all; vaccines do! So I’ll go with the scientists, doctors, clinical trial results, the CDC and Health Canada … and allow the idiots to follow the on-line wackos …and as long as the unvaxxed stay well away from me and other vaxxed people, I wish them well in ICU and the other world. h.o)

  28. Not Sure says:

    Like Stu I was kind of surprised at your response to Jay. I may be wrong but I think people will be getting yearly covid shots like they do the flu shot. That is how I read Jay. He wasn’t comparing covid to the flu; he was comparing the possible frequency of shots. He also said that hysteria and blame do not help. I don’t think he is wrong.

    Stu in his first response said that few people would disagree with you. I agree with you. But as the discussion continues (with Jay, Gilbert, G. Barry’s former student) how we deal with different opinions becomes important.

    The evidence is clear. The vast majority of cases are in the unvaccinated. We know that the vaccines are not 100% effective but they are very effective (as the numbers indicate) and even better when it comes to severity of illness and death. Right now vaccinated people are extremely safe.

    What do we want to do with the unvaccinated? The first thing we should want is for them to get vaccinated. I was listening to a podcast today and the 20% of unvaccinated people fall into two relatively equal groups. 1. People who are still unsure, need questions answered. 2. People who will never get the vaccine. (A third worry is people who figure the first dose may be all they need and might not get the second.)

    We need to plug away at the first group and the those who may “forget” their second dose by answering their questions and reassuring them and then with numbers up over 90% how do we want to “punish” the remainder if at all. I can certainly see the possibility of some kind of proof of vaccination to get on a plane or go to a hockey game or concert, maybe even a nightclub/bar. But to go shopping? “to walk, circulate … amongst us”? I would need to see the details.

    Can’t find the article, but I believe as soon as France indicated that they were looking at some kind of vaccination proof, vaccinations clicked upward after stalling.

    I have a younger relative who told me he wasn’t a big fan of the vaccine but he got it for his older relatives as he didn’t want to infect people like me. Thank you to people like him. And there is a second reason. We don’t want to overwhelm the health system. We know the unintended consequences of covid – cancelled surgeries, missed cancer checks, burned out health care workers. The last thing we need is a continuation of that. And we certainly don’t need anymore shutdowns of the economy. (On the same podcast, a poll indicated that should that happen, government support should be tied to people and companies who could prove they had been vaccinated.)

    Anyway, if people haven’t been vaccinated, there are plenty of good reasons for you to reconsider.

    (Response: Here’s the France news you were referring to: https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210713-covid-19-jab-bookings-surge-in-france-as-macron-announces-new-restrictions-for-the-unvaccinated. Macron was right …and Canada (BC) should do the same. We cannot and should not force people to get vaccinated …but we can and should restrict where the unvaxxed go, to protect the rest of us from them. h.o)

  29. G. Barry Stewart says:

    I play old-timers soccer and slo-pitch in Chilliwack. Both outdoor. All without masks (thankfully, as the synthetic soccer pitch reaches 65º C by noon. Real grass is only 27º.)

    No hand sanitizers or ceremonial cleansing of the equipment either. Just like pre-COVID times.

    In the case of soccer (before I joined them for the summer) the group found out that two or three players were not going to get the vaccination and the rest voted to ban them and any others unless they vax-up. The fear was that vaccinated players could carry the virus home and in one case there’s an immunocompromised spouse.

    Meanwhile, one of those unvaxxed players also plays slo-pitch and is welcome. The question wasn’t even asked, as far as I know. I’m fine with that. It’s outdoors and Dr. Bonnie has said, in effect: “Play ball!”

    * * *

    My earlier question hasn’t been answered yet, so I’ll ask it again: If Bob can prove he is fully-vaxxed and Bill can prove that he has survived COVID and has antibodies… should they both be equally welcome at all venues?

    (Response: The answer to your question should come from Dr Henry or an epidemiologist … not a politician, or a blogger. But I believe my own personal duty goes beyond what I would LIKE to do: it’s my responsibility to protect as best I can people who serve me in a restaurant or grocery store, sit next to me on transit or give me a haircut etc. They ALL have family, friends … and I just see those who could get vaccinated, but don’t and then demand the right to get close to others as selfish, despicable idiots … plain and simple. And I urge our “leaders” to protect our servers, restaurant and gym patrons etc from those people …by requiring vaccine proof (or medical exemption card) in crowded venues. h.o)

  30. jay says:

    Harvey,

    I wasn’t comparing covid to the flu, I was stating that it is very likely (i have been told this by many in healthcare and the ambulance service) that covid shots will be a yearly as flu shots. I apologize if I wasn’t clear enough for you.
    I also am not some wacko internet troll spouting garbage.
    There are some countries thinking of detention. Others wanting to impose vaccine passports or whatever means to show you are vaccinated. If not you will basically be locked out of public life.
    There are many who simply can’t take the vaccines. Some due to an existing illness and others due to the contents of the vaccine.
    The others who refuse, they are spinning the wheel but who’s to say they aren’t all ready immune?
    In the end I will still feel bad for someone if they die from covid. To do any other thing shows you have no empathy.

  31. Gilbert says:

    Hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin and azithromycin are effective for treating the coronavirus. The problem is they’re cheap. The pharmaceutical industry along with governments and the media (many on the boards of pharmaceutical companies) are pushing the vaccines.

    We can find many scientists and doctors who don’t want the vaccines. I would never call them idiots. There have been many deaths and serious side effects from the vaccines. They can’t be ignored.

    (Response: Forgive me for preferring the findings/conclusions of HUGE numbers of scientists, epidemiologists, supervised clinical studies and public health agencies in several countries … over some “independent” doctors or researchers on the Internet flogging concoctions not backed by scientific studies or accepted by the World Health Organization the CDC, or Health Canada as Covid treatments. Now I DO support YOUR right to take those and any other concoction you prefer instead of vaxxing … just stay with others who share YOUR beliefs for, say, a year or so and see how it works out … and leave the rest of us alone in our vaccine protected bubble. h.o)

  32. Stu de Baker says:

    “…it’s my responsibility to protect as best I can people who serve me in a restaurant or grocery store, sit next to me on transit or give me a haircut etc.… and I just see those who could get vaccinated, but don’t and then demand the right to get close to others as selfish, despicable idiots.”

    Such simplicity.

    How do you know your one man barbershop owner is vaccinated? Should YOU be able to demand to see HIS proof? Same for all those other “selfish, despicable idiots.” Do you quiz the elder who takes the last seat on the bus; beside you?

    You enter a coffee shop and there is someone already at the counter, do you assume they have been vetted by the barista, or do you demand proof before you will approach? Do you wait until they move well away and piss off those who have fallen in behind you and may or may not be vaccinated?

    Where’s the line Harvey? Where does your self-declared right to know, trump the other’s right to not tell?

    (Response: It’s not MY line that counts… it’s Dr Henry’s …who I thought you once gave credibility to on Covid? Dr Henry pointed out TODAY that of all those now in hospital in BC due to Covid …78% are UNVAXXED and 18% had only one dose…. that’s 96% in all! And Dr Henry also wants to see controls on access to certain places … like I do. .
    How ironic … now that science and medical statistics are mounting up and it’s quite clear controls may be needed again to keep us safe … I am supporting Dr Henry’s stance …while YOU are pooh-poohing how it would/could work. LOL! h.o)

  33. jay says:

    “And I urge our “leaders” to protect our servers, restaurant and gym patrons etc from those people …by requiring vaccine proof (or medical exemption card) in crowded venues.”

    I am curious. How far are we going to go with this?
    Shouldn’t every communicable disease be on this passport then? Flu shot, measles, mumps chicken pox (all of which can be lethal in certain populations and age groups)
    Tetanus? Whooping cough? etc.

    All of these can be very dangerous and kill.

    Covid 19 vaccine was developed in record time. This led to the democrats in the states claiming it was going to kill people as it was rushed. You had Biden and Harris both saying they would not take it since Trump was involved, like he brewed it up in a garage.

    So who is at fault for people being reluctant to trust the vaccine?
    Politicians have caused a big mess with this.
    The CDC and other agencies keep flip flopping on masks and lock downs and everything else.
    There are also the thousands of vaccinated people who have still gotten covid.
    One could also argue that the number of deaths may be way off due to co-morbidities. The CDC has acknowledged this.

    This all leads people to question what they are being told and to be reluctant to take a vaccine that has been called “experimental, dangerous, deadly, ineffective” by the politicians, some in the medical profession and many of the media pundits.

    Vaccines do work, but the companies that make them have exemptions against lawsuits. (see 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22 – Standards of responsibility )
    This basically means a manufacturer of a vaccine can put it out and if any injury or death results from that vaccine, no one can sue them.
    Why is that necessary? Because vaccines are also dangerous.

    So maybe calling people who are not jumping at the chance to get vaccinated “selfish, despicable idiots” is a little harsh. IMHO.

    (Response: Sounds to me like MY interpretation of your initial remarks was correct … and those who tried to suggest I had you wrong … had you wrong themselves! I am quite surprised at what seems to be your failure to understand how “different” Covid is compared to flu, measles, chicken pox etc. … especially in light of info from Dr Henry today that of all those now in hospital in BC due to Covid …78% are UNVAXXED and 18% had only one dose…. that’s 96% in all! Good enough for me to understand the dangers facing BC and why idiots who refuse to vaxx (without medical exemption) should be kept OUT of restaurants, bars, theaters, gyms etc. People who work or frequent those places have RIGHTS too .. including the RIGHT to stay healthy or alive and protect their families (spouses, parents, grandparents, kids). h.o)

  34. jay says:

    No Harvey you are wrong. Again I am not comparing other diseases to covid. My point is where do you draw the line on passports, identification, lock downs, barring people from society? As Stu pointed out, how are you to know if someone is vaxxed? Will everyone be required to show their papers to everyone? Will we be seeing passport police?
    Every disease I listed can kill. And each of them is just as easy to catch. The only difference is the vaccines have been around for decades.
    Covid is a new virus. First generation vaccines may not be fully effective. Hell the flu shot isn’t effective against all strains. But everyone has to make a decision regarding their own health and what they put in their body. No one should be talked down too or made to wear a scarlet letter if they choose not to accept the vaccine.

    Oh and by the way, even Dr. Fauci says we should not disrespect skepticism of vaccines in certain populations (https://www.newsmax.com/politics/fauci-africanamerican-vaccinations/2021/07/27/id/1030184/?fbclid=IwAR2s2lw9HIQE6mwEJhonaHpeo70pnFJvAyPdkgaDFCwczykvmNlHv5FPMcY)

    Lets look at it this way, the covid vaccine has been shown to have serious even life threatening side effects in some people especially those with co-morbidities. Why should they be called idiots and wackos when they can see that this is a possibility and don’t want to risk it.
    Also if you are going through life looking at each person as a virus factory trying to kill you, that is a very paranoid way to go through life.

    (Response: I do believe every restaurant bar theatre should have the RIGHT to restrict admission to its premises to those with proof of vaccine. I think it takes a lot of nerve for anyone who refuses to get vaccinated to then DEMAND any shopkeeper or restaurateur etc MUST allow them entry. No! The anti-vaxxers have to realize others have rights too … including the right to protect their own workers, the patrons and everyone they associate with outside of work. We’ve already seen how many people can be infected by ONE person before he or she gets diagnosed! And it’s a total red herring … even evil mischief … to suggest Canada is even CONSIDERING making people wear a scarlet letter. Shame on you! h.o)

  35. Stu de Baker says:

    Harvey, I am sincerely sorry for whatever is going on; your last response to me was just bizarre. So much so, I don’t know how to address it.

    The one thing I can comment on, is your turnabout on Dr. Henry, whom you have vilified for 18 months; her sources have not changed, she has not changed, nor has my support and belief in her changed.

    You have misread and/or deflected much of what has been wrtten by me and others.

    And this all started out as such a good piece.

    (Response: Wrong again. I have not “vilified” Dr Henry for 18 months: I keep it real (unlike most of the media). I don’t just regurgitate the message du jour … attributing perfection to politicians, bureaucrats. I criticize them (including Dr Henry) when I believe they have made a mistake, politicized the fight against Covid or have gone too far in shutdown policies. And in this case, I believe they are on the right track, in vaccinating as many as possible BUT they should do more to protect the rest of us from the idiots who simply refuse to get the shot. h.o)

  36. Not Sure says:

    Maybe this will help.

    https://bc.ctvnews.ca/requiring-proof-of-vaccination-allowed-in-limited-circumstances-says-b-c-s-human-rights-commissioner-1.5509300

    Or maybe it won’t.

    “Limited circumstances.” Stu and Jay are just asking for clarification on what those limited circumstances might be. I have no idea what the right answer is but I did suggest airplanes. Large enclosed crowds like concerts or sporting events. Maybe a nightclub or bar as opposed to a restaurant. Restaurants have it easier to maintain distance and mostly limited to small tables. Nightclubs not so much as people wander and dance.

    I am fully vaccinated so I am not worried about catching covid while grocery shopping as the stores have high ceilings and decent ventilation and we can maintain some distance. In theory if 95% of the cases are the unvaccinated then I should be even less worried. I wear a mask in smaller, more crowded stores. I have gone maskless in Safeway although I put on the mask when in line. Getting back to normal is hard even in a town that hasn’t had a single case in about a month.

    Anyway, there were no real specifics in the article, but only places that cannot maintain some kind of safety protocols would be targeted. The gym I went to was never crowded except for spin classes. Maybe the spin class could require proof of vaccination otherwise not. And how long would proof be required. And how would it be enforced and by whom?

    There is lots to discuss here without getting entrenched in some position.

    (Response: It has indeed already started: some sports teams are REQUIRING vaccination to participate. The government should help make it easier for places or organizations that want to protect their staffs, clients, families … by issuing proof of vaccination cards to those fully inoculated …so that restaurants, etc can ask to see them. I believe a lot of families will just not go out to eat, mingle, even shop widely … until they feel safe and able to separate from the idiots amongst us who just refuse to get vaccinated ..and couldn’t care less about spreading the virus to others. h.o)

  37. jay says:

    ” to suggest Canada is even CONSIDERING making people wear a scarlet letter. Shame on you!”
    Hit a nerve?

    What do you think a passport is? It is the anti scarlet letter. It is the “I’m one of you” items.
    Imagine if this prosecute the anti vaxxed idea went further.
    Make them drink from separate fountains, separate bathrooms, deny them work, deny them the basic service of life, eventually isolate them from society, if they try to leave throw them in jail (all of this has been discussed).
    Harvey not long ago certain groups were called rats, a plague, vermin. They were isolated and thrown out of society. Everyone was taught to hate them. Eventually they were taken away and gotten rid of and everyone just ignored it all.
    Another group not too long ago was told they could not go into certain places, could not sit in certain places, were not allowed to have certain jobs, were not allowed to go to certain schools.
    You may not correlate what is going on now with what went on then but that is an ignorant and anti humanitarian view.
    No one should be chastised as you proposed in your post.
    Are you going to say the same of diabetics that eat donuts? People with cardiac disease that eat at McDonalds? Liver disease patients who imbibe in a drink?
    8.9 million died in 2019 worldwide due to heart disease. 6+ million from respiratory disease.
    So far this year 5.7 million have died from heart disease, 2.5 million from strokes.

    Covid has killed 4.1 million since it was first diagnosed 2 years ago. 177 million have recovered.
    Covid is dangerous but it most certainly is not the worst thing we face and blaming the unvaccinated is appropriate and inhumane.
    Feeling such hatred toward them is quite concerning. I worry for you if you feel that way.

    (Response: “All of this has been discussed” … yes, by the wackos and idiot fringe on the Internet … ideas/fears you are now helping spread/promote. Shame on you. h.o)

  38. e.a.f. says:

    Had to laugh about the comments from those who point out the vaccines don’t always work. That is true. However, if you have been vaccinated and develop COVID you are a whole lot less sick and unlikely to die. That is good enough for me. The name of the game is staying alive.

    Not all vaccines work with every one and that goes back to the days of polio. When polio vaccines were first being administered some children did get polio, but a very mild case. Didn’t die, Didn’t wind up in an iron lung and weren’t disabled afterwards. It happened to a sibling. One leg is about a quarter of an inch shorter, that’s it.

    There are a number of people who promote different cures/remedies for those who develop COVID. Ya, that’s true, but a ventilator is still the gold standard if you have a very serious case because you see, you need to breath to stay alive and some of these “cures” just don’t cut it in the breathing department.

    It is a person’s right to not be vaccinated, but it is my right to stay alive and not develop COVID and die. So who’s rights take priority. Your right to not be vaccinated or my right to live. there are people who won’t get vaccinated so some of us will continue to avoid crowds, wear masks, and use hand sanitizer.

    If people don’t get vaccinated and develop COVID, it is sad, because they may die. If they do, they have no one to blame but themselves. Then there is the problem of “long haulers”. That is going to cost the health care system a few dollars, not to mention some won’t be able to work again. If they had been vaccinated they most likely would avoided all that trouble.

    People who work in health care ought to be required to be vaccinated. When you go to the hospital to “get well”, etc. you should not have to be exposed to people who are not vaccinated. Going to health care providers is not something we can opt out of if we are unwell. We can avoid bars, concerts, resturants, etc. but health care providers, not so much, if you require their services.

    Never did understand people who didn’t want to be vaccinated. Some, very few can not be vaccinated due to other health issues, but the majority of the population has no problem with vaccines. Use them. Before there were vaccines, hundreds of millions of people died for no other reason but there were no vaccines. We are lucky to live in an age where vaccines were developed as quickly as they were.

    (Response: I attribute a lot of the anti-vaxx thinking at this point to much more than just skepticism of medical efficacy: the statistics worldwide clearly show that where people get vaxxed, the Covid infection rate goes way down; the hospitalization numbers go way down; the death rate from Covid goes way down … and the opposite is happening everywhere to the unvaxxed. So why are too many avoiding it? Several reasons: ignorance of the facts about how easily Covid spreads and how lethal it can be; fear of the statistically tiny number of complications (people these days are spoiled …expecting perfection in everything); politics (amazing!); plain laziness about going; and, yes, there are people who just enjoy being contrary and the attention it gets them. God Bless them all in their ignorance, but the truth is THEY are now the worst spreaders and society will never fully get Covid under control until vaccination rates are higher … worldwide. Until then, our leaders have a duty to keep those who are vaccinated safe from those who refuse and have no medical exemption from a doctor. Use a Covid green card system to keep them OUT of places where people gather, mingle closely. h.o)

  39. Not Sure says:

    Can I try to see where most everybody agrees.

    Vaccinations work.
    As many people as possible should get vaccinated.
    Covid has not been eradicated so we still need to be as vigilant as possible at least for a time.

    Personally, I don’t really care if some kind of vaccine passport became a necessity. I am fully vaccinated. One more card for my bulging with cards wallet is not a big deal even though as a fully vaccinated person my chances of catching covid are extremely low. I am not looking around wondering who is and who is not vaccinated. Maybe I should but I am not asking every person I sit and stand near if they are vaccinated. If we are, then we can’t say we have confidence in the vaccine which only feeds the anti-vaxxer argument.

    But Jay has raised some interesting points that are worth considering and Dr. Henry (you know the person you didn’t vilify when you referred to her as Big Sister Bonnie and accused her many times of overreach) probably agrees with some of what he has brought up.

    I really haven’t thought it all out but let’s start with something simple. What do we do with the people who legitimately cannot take the vaccine. Should they be allowed to eat in a restaurant, go grocery shopping, attend a hockey game, exercise at a gym? If we say yes, then the line becomes blurred.

    What about Gilbert who seems like an intelligent, reasonable person? He has the autonomy to decide what goes inside his body but how much do you want to punish him for that choice. Isn’t his choice more harmful to himself than it is to you or me – the fully vaxxed.

    I am not arguing one way or another (just get vaccinated people) but to Keep it Real, the human rights commission has said within certain limits; the ombudsman has said something similar.

    If important people are reading this blog and trying to take away something from it that they can use I don’t think making this a black and white issue is helpful. What are the “within limits” things that can be done?

    (Response: First, with your level of education, you shouldn’t have to look up the definition of “vilify” …but clearly you should! Criticism of anyone’s policies, point of view or beliefs is not “vilification” … except in the minds of those who want it to be. As for people deciding what goes into their body … I have no problem with that at all … until they THREATEN the health and lives of others with their own selfishness. Would YOU allow parents to send their measles/polio/mumps etc UNVACCINATED children to school to/mingle play with YOUR kids/grandkids …because, after all, it’s their right to refuse the vaccine? Maybe just explain to the children some of them may get sick/die …but that’s just the price society has to pay to protect idiots’ rights? Covid is a killer … and anyone who does not believe that, does not want to vaccinate …should be respected …and then told to stay away from public places and other people …who want to live and want their kids, parents, grandparents to live! In fact, Covid is starting to spread again …thanks to the unvaccinated idiots …in the Interior and places are shutting down again. Time for the government to develop a spine in dealing with the wackos. h.o)

  40. jay says:

    “(Response: “All of this has been discussed” … yes, by the wackos and idiot fringe on the Internet … ideas/fears you are now helping spread/promote. Shame on you. h.o)”

    Yeah wrong again.
    This has been discussed by the New York legislators and the CDC itself among others.

    https://reason.com/2021/01/05/new-york-bill-would-let-state-put-people-in-detention-public-health-threat-covid-19/

    https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/91460

    This is public knowledge. It isn’t some wacko conspiracy theory.
    And while this is all going on there are thousands of migrants crossing the US southern border with no testing.

    Look, I get it. I am fully vaccinated as is most of my family. I think it is everyone’s best interest to get vaccinated.
    What I won’t do is blame, chastise or act with no empathy. To do so would make me a terrible human being IMHO. I don’t know everyone’s circumstances and I am certainly not so paranoid that I believe everyone is out to kill me or others.
    Life is risk. Some have decided to take it.

    Oh and the latest info shows that vaccinated people can spread the new variants just like everyone else (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/cdc-director-new-mask-guidance-vaccinated-spreading-delta-variant)
    Guess we aren’t off the hook either.

    (Response: I read the article: NOWHERE does it say “Make them drink from separate fountains, separate bathrooms, deny them work, deny them the basic service of life” NOWHERE! You are just scaremongering. Shame on you! As for the “Bill” you cite … you conveniently failed to mention is NOT an administration Bill, but a private member’s Bill by a single Assemblyman (wacko!) ” originally introduced during the 2015-16 session in response to the Ebola virus.” …. with I predict no hope of ever passing. But it’s good for blog readers to see the kind of mischief our public health officials and our society are facing in our struggle to control/defeat Covid: science, medical studies, proven statistics ignored … wacko proposals, idiots promoted in the public discourse instead. And while they “play” and sow vaccine rejectionism, more people get sick, possibly very sick or die … and inadvertently can pass it on to co-workers family and friends too. The government have to take them on …now! h.o)

  41. Gilbert says:

    Harvey, Did you know the recent coronavirus outbreak in Israel was mostly caused by fully vaccinated people? The Seychelles, the most fully vaccinated population in the world if I’m not mistaken, has seen a rise in cases.

    I think we’re going to see tremendous persecution of those who are unvaccinated. Maybe they won’t be allowed to travel, visit supermarkets, enter hospitals or go to university. The level of hatred is alarming.

    As I’m sure you’re aware, asymptomatic transmission is very low. If you have a very small amount of the virus in your body and no symptoms, there’s nothing to fear. Let me use an analogy. If you drink a very small amount of wine, you won’t get drunk.

    Here’s an interesting experiment. Let’s conduct it over a period of five years. We can compare vaccinated and unvaccinated groups and determine their average life expectancies. If the vaccinated group has a lower life expectancy, maybe we can conclude the vaccines are good for depopulation. Maybe we can also check miscarriages.

    Well, there’s no need to worry so much. With all the restrictions governments are imposing, I probably have to get vaccinated soon. I’m waiting for Novavax. I can’t resist forever.

    (Response: I think many people, even the vaccinated, don’t realize how contagious and dangerous Covid is …especially the steadily increasing number of mutations and variants. More than 4 MILLION dead so far!! You’d think that would sink in for everyone …but clearly not. If you contract it … you will lie in bed or in ICU, suffering greatly with potentially very long term health implications , asking yourself WHY you didn’t get the vaccine as soon as the science clearly showed them to be safe. The stats arew now overwhelming: they work! Don’t let the wackos scare you away. Don’t wait another six months or a a year: get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine wherever and as soon as you can. h.o.)

  42. E. Johnson says:

    Sad and shocking news re the sudden death of BMCQ. Enjoyed his passionately written postings and his zest for life. Condolences to his family. He will be sadly missed.

    Harvey, we need herd immunity and we need it as soon as possible. I would like to see 90 percent of Canadians fully vaccinated but realize that is likely a pipe dream. Over a year ago we believed the idea of having a vaccine developed so quickly was pie in the sky. The MRNA technology has been around around for sometime. It was was a matter of determining how to use it to carry dead virus that would trigger the body to produce antibodies.
    I am fully vaccinated as is all my family. I have an acquaintance who didn’t get around to getting the vaccine. Her husband got Covid first and when she got it, she ended up in ICU. At home now, with blood clots in her legs and on oxygen therapy with her life changed for the foreseeable future.

    Not sure what the solution is to increasing the vaccination uptake but perhaps peer pressure is one place to begin. If people start being excluded from social circles and pick up sports games etc. It might make an impression or not.

    (Response: Thank you for this. To see someone healthy one week .. and then a few days later in ICU with tubes going into and coming out of almost every orifice is a terrible thing to behold at any time. And when it happens to innocent people who tried to do their best …. wore masks, sanitized, self-distanced etc …. but still caught Covid, it’s particularly sad and tragic. Not to mention those who lost their jobs, their businesses, their life savings. That’s why it makes me mad to see selfish people offered the vaccine FREE, but who just refuse it …and yet, still think they should have the right to mingle, move, work, touch, cough on others in crowded venues! NO! These idiots have the right to make themselves sick …but not the right to infect others, who may not survive the exposure! h.o)

  43. jay says:

    Harvey,

    No those posted items didn’t mention seperate fountains etc. But if this keeps going down the road it is, there will be those that may propose that. Segregation was not long ago based on color and race, it isn’t a stretch to apply it to the unvaccinated. The CDC documents pretty much said that they would lock people down in camps/schools or any other large isolated facility.
    Media figures like Don Lemon and other are proposing that the unvaccinated (not the covid positive) should have no ability to do anything other than stay at home. No job, no access to supermarkets.
    The leadership in some areas has basically declared a war on the unvaccinated stating that “Gov. Gavin Newsom compared choosing to remain unvaccinated to drunk driving “, “”time to start blaming the unvaccinated (Alabama Gov Kay Ivey)”, “Maybe you go home and kiss your grandmother and wind-up killing your grandmother,”

    Now that is fear mongering.

    Kay Iveys statement should make you take a step back and remember history.
    Hitler blamed the Jews for all Germanys ills, remember how that went. In the early years jews were attacked, had their shops and livelihoods taken, they were locked down on punishment of arrest, eventually put in camps, forced sterilization etc.
    Seems there is a lot of the same things happening or being proposed to happen now to the unvaccinated.
    We have already seen the violence against people in the mask debate. People have been brutally assaulted over a mask. Imagine the vitriol against the unvaccinated that will happen.
    What is also very apparent is that you and others are making a huge and wrong assumption. That all no vaccinated people have or will get covid. Just because the majority of ill patients presenting with covid are un vaxxed does not correlate to all unvaxxed being sick, carriers or going to get sick. There are many who may have already had covid and are now naturally immune. Some may get it and not have severe symptoms. Natural immunity is much better that a vaccine since it tends to last much longer. As it stands the prevailing theory is that we will need at least 1 booster in the fall. After that it may be yearly.
    Singling out the unvaccinated is a recipe for violence, bullying, ostracizing and denial of the basic rights that everyone is entitled to. We must be very careful how we proceed here. Lives on both sides depend on it.

    (Response: You should know that, in a free speech society in this day of Internet. Facebook and thousands of Cable television stations, anyone can find militant activists, vote-seeking politicians, hugely paid media agitators or just a regular nut or two ..or 10,000 …spouting anything! Elected people, media mavericks, self-proclaimed doctor experts, famous entertainers, wacko fringe “scientists”, “researchers”, “experts” …anyone you want, saying anything they want and that anyone else WANTS to believe or postulate. I prefer RECOGNIZED ACCREDITED experts/doctors/scientists/clinical analysis from RECOGNIZED ACCREDITED universities, hospitals, research labs, respected government agencies operating in free, democratic countries. They may too sometimes get something wrong, but their batting average tends to be a LOT better than the individuals/sources you have been quoting. All the while as Covid cases in the Interior of BC rise sharply …almost ALL of it among young UNVACCINATED people … who are now personally responsible for many more families hurting and suffering, businesses having to shut down, people out of work again …and using up precious societal/government time/resources that could much better be used to solve other health and societal problems. The government MUST not only encourage the more than 900,000 unvaxxed BC residents to get the shot …but also act to PROTECT the rest of us from the selfish idiots who just outright refuse. h.o)

    • jay says:

      “I prefer RECOGNIZED ACCREDITED experts/doctors/scientists/clinical analysis from RECOGNIZED ACCREDITED universities, hospitals, research labs, respected government agencies operating in free, democratic countries. ”

      That’s great Harvey but what happens when those people are politically driven?
      Fauci who is the head of the Infectious disease institute of America and lately the guy all over TV Has flip flopped so much that he is unbelievable. No need for masks, Wear a mask, wear 2 masks, children are not needing masks, children need to wear masks, the vaccine means you won’t have to wear a mask, even if you are vaccinated you should wear a mask.
      What the hell is the truth????
      The CDC is flip flopping.
      The current US government started out condemning the vaccine but now push it.

      Ok now define “RECOGNIZED ACCREDITED”. Who are these people?

      Is this group of doctor on that list?”https://www.republicworld.com/india-news/general-news/covid-19-80-percent-people-immune-to-virus-either-from-vaccine-or-past-infection-say-experts.html”
      Please show us the doctors that are the only people we should listen to. Who are they, what are their credentials? What makes them the experts? Science is not about consensus it is about fact and truth.
      In early 2019 it was no masks no human to human contact.
      Then it was no mask but social distance.
      Then it was masks isolation social distance.
      Then it was 2 masks
      Then it was don’t leave your home.
      then it was don’t trust the vaccine cuz Trump was involved.
      then oh Biden won so yes take the vaccine (that trump was involved in)
      Now it is take the trump vaccine, wear masks, isolate, if you see someone without a mask or unvaxxed chastise, attack and shun them from society. Send them to the proverbial leper colony.

      No unvaccinated are responsible for “many more families hurting and suffering, businesses having to shut down, people out of work again …and using up precious societal/government time/resources that could much better be used to solve other health and societal problems. ”
      This is nonsense. There is no evidence that unvaxxed people are causing businesses to shut down, putting anyone out of work, or using up resources. As I have said before, no one knows on sight that someone is unvaxxed. No one can say that anyone who walks into a business, goes to work or goes to any government resource is sick.
      Tell me Harvey, how do you know that anyone you see other than family and maybe friends are vaccinated? Do you demand a proof of vaccination from anyone who gets within 6 feet of you?
      When you make you trip plans do you demand proof of vaccination from everyone involved?
      I work in health care. I see many people every day and yes I ask about covid and vaccination status but I do not ask for proof. If I can’t trust my fellow man then I might as well just let them all suffer and die.
      This is a terrible point of view and I again say that should you believe that anyone should be demeaned or chastised about a vaccine, that is sad. You don’t know what they are going through and your opinion is based on a big lack of knowledge into their circumstances.

      Stop equating all non vaxxed people with wackos.

      (Response: You are correct: many of the non-vaxxed are not wackos … they’re just selfish, self centered idiots. As for “flip flops”, even a cynic like me who has been very openly and loudly critical of the handling of the Covid pandemic and shutdowns etc. understand that dealing with a fast-moving killer pandemic like Covid is a “learning” experience for scientists, doctors, researchers and health officials … so of course there will be modifications, changes, etc. That’s still a lot better than listening to or following the advice of unaccredited wackos, trolls on the Internet or TV charlatans agitating for partisan political reasons, while quietly going and getting vaccinated themselves! I urge everyone ..including those strong young healthy people out there to get the shot …to protect your families and friends and help get our society back to fun gatherings without worrying bout how many will get terribly sick. h.o)

  44. Terry Montgomery says:

    Regarding a vaccine passport, when I got my first shot I was given a card with the date, type of vaccine{Moderna}. After the second shot, same procedure. I keep the card with my Medical card in my wallet. I don’t see the need for a passport if this was the procedure at all the vaccine clinics etc. held in all the Health Regions in the province. Just my opinion.

    (Response: That could indeed act as a proof of vaccine here in BC … it has also been recorded on the BC Health app available for download free for those with a cellphone: it has immunizations listed right there (and Prescriptions listed too in another section). But I wouldn’t be surprised to see several countries come out with some sort of digital vaccine pass, readable internationally. h.o)

  45. john says:

    Hey Jay: I think we have a problem with the folks that are commenting (and blogging)…Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind’s made up!

    (Response: The TRUTH will set you …and BC … free: the FACTS are well proven: vaccines work, save lives! h.o)

  46. Not Sure says:

    We can quibble about the severity of your criticism or your motivation, but one definition of vilify: “to say or write unpleasant things about someone or something, in order to cause other people to have a bad opinion of them” It is fine to question Dr. Henry’s policies but do you think referring to her as Big Sister Bonnie was helpful? I am guessing it was cheered by the anti-vaxxer/anti restriction crowd, giving them one more reason to distrust the government. These are the people you are vilifying now.

    (Response: Yes … Big Brother (and being a great believer in equality) Big Sister … are acceptable and quite common terms when critics or the public refer to various government actions, policies, attitudes when they take actions that affect millions of people and/or spend millions of dollars on questionable projects/programs/policies. To suggest that nomenclature amounts to “vilifying” them is just claptrap … certainly below your usual intellectual contribution grade, but I won’t vilify you for that. h.o)

  47. Not Sure says:

    Back on topic.

    I am enjoying the discussion between you and Jay and I am wondering if you guys can figure out where you agree instead of where you disagree.

    We need to convince people who haven’t been vaccinated to get vaccinated so we don’t have to argue over how severely we will restrict the lives of anti-vaxxers.

    But first. This was eye opening. Who do we believe? The thousands of medical experts or the 12! people most responsible for the the misinformation (ok the alternative points of view) on social media..
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/17/covid-misinformation-conspiracy-theories-ccdh-report

    So how do we get around that. How about this. “If you look at the mortality rate of Covid, just this past year for children, it’s more than twice the mortality rate that we see in influenza in a given year.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/cdc-director-new-mask-guidance-vaccinated-spreading-delta-variant

    Right now, children under 12 can’t be vaccinated. Bad enough watching your aging parent die. Imagine watching your child.

    As to Gilbert’s point about Israel’s cases being driven by the vaccinated. If I am reading this correctly, the study didn’t say that. It said that the effectiveness of the vaccine wasn’t as strong as it was earlier and that it appeared that the vaccine may be wearing off over time. (boosters?) Those are concerns but the vaccine is still way more effective in preventing covid, hospitalization and death vs no vaccine. As well, other studies show different results.
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-severe-covid-cases-could-reach-400-by-mid-august-researchers-warn/

    Still, no matter what, about 8% of Canadians will refuse a vaccine. What if anything should we do to “encourage” them through restrictions of some kind.

    Do we start immediately at draconian which appeared to be your position at least at the beginning? Is there anything at all that someone like Jay would agree to that limits the unvaccinated?

    As I mentioned earlier, I do not worry about who is in the grocery store. It is big with high ceilings, generally well ventilated. I can wear a mask, especially at the check out, I can keep my distance, etc. But if I were someone who went to night clubs where people mingle and dance on a crowded dance floor, I would be worried. Do we deny the unvaccinated everything or just those things that are still too risky. And who makes that call? The government or the night club?

    My guess is if restrictions are deemed necessary, health authorities will be looking at certain more risky activities (not all) at least at the beginning. And some private business (not all) will be making decisions about employee vaccinations and who can enter their premises. And private citizens will be making decisions on which friends to hang out with.

    But hopefully, it won’t come to that if more people get vaccinated.

    (And thank you Jay for taking the minority position. It doesn’t necessarily change minds but it does force us, well at least me, to reconsider/refine our own positions to make them stronger)

    (Response: The latest numbers in the BC Interior (as well as many other parts of the world) show that non-vaxxers are HURTING not only themselves, but our workers, our businesses, our economy, and most of all, our freedoms. By what right? The bleeding hearts amongst our society may be prepared to let a minority hurt and so badly impact the majority without a whimper, but I believe most BC residents are rightly pissed off at those non-vaxxed idiots who are sowing harm on so many. How do we get them to stop being so inconsiderate or others? I would NOT provide incentives …like financial rewards etc.: the public taxpayer is doing enough by funding the hundreds of millions of dollars going into obtaining/injecting the vaccines and treating those who fall ill. I think the INCENTIVE should be INCLUSION … and EXCLUSION for those who (for no legitimate medical reason) refuse to pitch in and help us fight/conquer this vicious virus. EXCLUDE the non-vaxxed from restaurants, theatres, stadiums, aircraft, hotels, workplaces, from crossing international borders etc. … I’d bet that would lead to much better vaxx rates. h.o)

  48. Stu de Baker says:

    Jay; you asked, as I did, way up the page “Tell me Harvey, how do you know that anyone you see other than family and maybe friends are vaccinated? Do you demand a proof of vaccination from anyone who gets within 6 feet of you?”

    Further, how do you know your friends give an honest answer?

    I think these are legitimate, important questions, but so far…

    Crickets.

    Terry Montgomery; that hand written card you got with vax info on it? Well I could duplicate that in a couple of minutes.

    Some internationally recognized document, passport addendum or probably an electronic passport attachment like an eTA/ESTA.

    (Response: Yes … I still ONLY meet/dine/socialize in ones or twos or very small groups who ARE vaccinated; I still limit anyone coming into my home to visit to those who are vaccinated; and, I still wear a mask when indoors shopping etc. even when passing people outdoors (especially cyclists and runners) on sidewalks or walking the beach or the woods. It’s my way of not just protecting myself but also, in case I do pick Covid up unknowingly along the way, PROTECTING OTHERS too. (I realize that’s a very novel idea to the selfish, self-centered idiots still out there refusing to get vaccinated!) h.o)

  49. Harvey Oberfeld said: “I really hope that many more of the thousands who read this Blog, but never write in, will take up their fallen talking sticks and start contributing to our discussions.”

    Harvey Oberfeld said: “many of the non-vaxxed are not wackos … they’re just selfish, self centered idiots.”

    The reason why many regular readers don’t comment lies in your attitude to so-called “non-vaxxed” individuals. You are not capable of having a fair and balanced discussion on this issue. Even just the terms “non-vaxxed” and “anti-vax” are social constructions that stigmatize people.

    I could try to explain my point of view on this blog. But in order to really explain my thought-process, I would have to reveal personal details that would make me vulnerable. With all due respect, I see a lot of elderly retired people pointing fingers and making accusations when they don’t have all the information. Let me tell you: Workplaces of 2021 are toxic, through and through. Some people may be lucky to have a half decent employer, but many aren’t. And we go through all sorts of trials and tribulations at work that would raise eyebrows for anyone with an ounce of common sense. And we can’t say a damn thing about it, lest we lose our jobs. Corruption reaches to the highest halls of power in BC and whistle blowers face severe repercussions. Take all that and magnify it by an order of magnitude in the healthcare industry and anything related to prescription drugs, pharmacies. Remember the young man bureaucrat who committed suicide under the BC Liberal government in relation to some big hubbub to do with RX drugs?! That gives you a sense of how much stress some people are under in their jobs. People know things as a result of doing their jobs that can be very disturbing and there is NO ONE to talk about it with. I have been screaming for years for someone to help me tell my story and I’ve been met with abuse and censorship. So I guess no one will ever know my story.

    This post hit a nerve because sometimes this blog is so good, and other times it is so bad.

    The young have already sacrificed enough for the elderly. Not their health now too.

    (Response: How ridiculous! This Blog has more of an exchange of different opinions … sometimes several times from each on every topic … than any other Blog I know. But yet, you seem to suggest the person whose Blog it is should NOT express my honest opinion? Ridiculous! I believe those who, despite all the scince and evidence and having no medical reason to do so …still refuse to get vaccinated are: selfish, self-centered idiots who are now endangering other people’s health and doing serious damage to other people’s lives, freedoms, livelihoods and BC/Canada in general. The government(s) should NOT force them to get vaccinated …BUT the government(s) should protect the rest of us who do get the shot by restricting access to workplaces, crowded venues and keeping the unvaxxed out. THEIR rights do NOT include rendering others very sick or possibly even killing them! h.o)

  50. Harvey Oberfeld asked: “Would YOU allow parents to send their measles/polio/mumps etc UNVACCINATED children to school to/mingle play with YOUR kids/grandkids”

    My answer is YES. In fact, it wouldn’t even occur to me to ask about the vaccination status of other children, so long as my own kids recieved the MMR vaccine- which is a safe vaccine that’s been used for many decades.

    Also, you mentioned that those who have valid medical exemptions, you don’t have a problem with. So I probably do have valid medical exemptions. But I haven’t had a family doctor since the 1980s, I’ve been off work on long term disability sunce 2017 and I’m not even allowed to see a doctor in person! And my walkin clinic doctor said I’m full of BS and hung up the.phone in me. So good luck getting a medical exemption, even if you have a valid reason.

    (Response: There are many parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated … and BC Health officials warn this places those kids ..and others …at significant risk: so much so “If there is an outbreak at your child’s school and your child is unprotected, your child may be asked to stay home until it is safe to return. They may miss several days or weeks of school. This is to protect your child and their classmates.” Too bad for those kids …but the rest MUST be protected. Read all about it here: https://immunizebc.ca/what-you-need-know . Covid is an even greater danger to seriously render gravely ill or kill … everyone should get the vaccine as soon as it is approved for them ..or stay away from those of us who do! h.o)

    • max avelli says:

      DEAR TOMMY THOMSON:

      You are clearly part of the problem, not the solution.

      I remember back in the late ’60’s when I began primary school that we all got lined up to get various shots every year (e.g., measles/polio/mumps etc , ). Basically every kid got a shot. If they didn’t we did not see them again. Period. That is “herd immunity”.

      This should be mandated for everyone. Just like smallpox and other vaccines.

      No shot, no go. It is coming to get us out of this mess.

      Enjoy your supposed life. May you RIP.

      There is no accounting for dum-dums.

      Self-culling is doing the rest of us a public service.

      (Response: It’s easy to require vaccinations at schools, where children are so vulnerable and viruses/diseases can spread so rapidly. Adults are a different thing: I believe they have the right to decide for themselves whether to take any medication (blood transfusions too!) BUT then they must be willing to pay the price for that. And frankly, as I said my Blog piece, it doesn’t bother me when they get sick or die … I just say “What an idiot! when I hear about it … as long as they did not, in the meantime, pass the virus on to innocent restaurant servers, grocery clerks, transit drivers or other innocent vaxxed or partially vaxxed people with compromised health conditions, rendering them very ill …or worse. h.o.)

  51. Harvey Oberfeld said:

    “I believe those who, despite all the scince and evidence and having no medical reason to do so …still refuse to get vaccinated are: selfish, self-centered idiots”

    I would think that after a career as a journalist, you would be able to express yourself with resorting to name-calling. Calling people who have different opinions “idiots” or “whackos” is not conducive to an enlightening discussion or debate.

    Regarding your point about medical science: In my honest opinion, I do not believe the science is on your side. That’s all I can say about that because this topic has approached the status of religious dogma. We are beyond convincing people with facts.

    (Response: Blog readers know I do not condone name-calling, especially against individuals. Sometimes, though, you have to call a group of people EXACTLY what they really are, whether the appropriate word is “racists”, “bigots”, “agitators”, “Homophobes” … or, in the Covid case “wackos” if they fall for/believe/regurgitate some of the unsubstantiated and even dangerous drivel that permeates the Internet .. and “idiots” if, in the face of so much clinical evidence now that Covid vaccines do work and are saving lives, they still refuse to help stop the spread of this vicious killer virus by getting vaccinated. Selfish, self-centered idiots in my book … and on my Blog! h.o)

  52. Gilbert says:

    The Seychelles, Israel, Chile, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates have high vaccination rates. However, they have all experienced many new cases. In California, many counties with high vaccination rates have more cases than counties with low vaccination rates.

    It has been reported that the mRNA vaccines penetrate the ovaries and bone marrow. Miscarriages in the UK have increased by over 300%. I don’t believe this has been widely reported.

    My wife’s friend, a doctor, doesn’t believe in the vaccines. She doesn’t want to lose her licence, though, so she’s very careful. She just tells people to follow their conscience.

    (Response: The continuing spread of Covid variants, even in highly vaxxed countries, shows how dangerous this virus really is! As for those who don’t want to take it: fine. Just stay away from ANYWHERE you can catch it … and also stay away from the rest of us … because stats are increasingly showing unvaxxed like YOU are highly responsible for Covid’s contuining spread! You’re not welcome amongst us. h.o)

  53. e.a.f. says:

    Made me laugh, your response to Tommy Tomson, “or stay away from those of us who do!” Have had both shots and still would not knowingly go near any one who hasn’t been vaccinated. When out and about to do grocery shopping, its mask on, walking on a side walk, mask on. Don’t attend social functions because the friends have given up social functions prior to vaccines. We have now resumed seeing each other, close family and friends who are double jabbed. Even if Pavoritti came back from the dead and there was a front row seat, would not attend.
    As an aging baby boomer remember life prior to big rock concerts, opera, restaraunts on a regular basis, etc. We survived. This staying at home hasn’t been all fun, but it hasn’t been all bad either.

    One could say some of this pandemic has been good for the enviornment. People stopped travelling so not too many jets in the sky, no waste of fuel on cruise ships, not buying every plastic thing around. Many people actually saved money during the lock downs and still are because they don’t go to malls unless they have to.

    It is unfortunate some do not wish to be vaccinated because we will continue to have COVID, we will continue to have people die, we will continue to have variants and not only will people die, but so will children, who can not be vaccinated. Never objected to people committing suicide, but when you take others with you, that is not a good thing.

    (Response: The latest figures in BC and elsewhere show the variants are quite dangerous .. even to those already vaccinated…but especially to those who are not. We MUST stop coddling the idiots who refuse to join the fight against Covid by vaccinating. Governments must protect the rest of is by restricting access by the unvaxxed to places where people gather in close quarters. And I’m glad to see more and more places (work, bars, sports teams) making vaccinations COMPULSORY …or stay away! h.o)

  54. e.a.f. says:

    Was just reading another article about the effects of COVID 19: It is estimated 1.5 million children lost either a parent or grandparent who lived with them during the first 14 months of the pandemic, world wide. That is a lot of grieving kids. Perhaps those who don’t want to get a jab for themselves might do it to save children the grief and upheaval of having a parent or grandparent die and leaving them to the vagaries of life.

    (Response: When I read figures like that, I cannot help but wonder how anyone given the opportunity to get a proven vaccine that helps curb the spread of a deadly virus would not only refuse to do so … substantially increasing their chance of getting Covid (especially the rampaging Delta variant) but even mingle in large groups, helping spread the virus about. h.o)

  55. Not Sure says:

    Claptrap. LOL. This goes to the heart of this discussion. I asked you if you thought your use of Big Sister (An omnipresent, seemingly benevolent figure representing the oppressive control over individual lives exerted by an authoritarian government) was helpful or if it fed the people you are now vilifying. Same as fascist Ayatollahs of the Parks Board. It is hyperbolic rhetoric. It is not helpful.

    Anyway, I would still love some clarity on this topic. I share your frustration at the unvaccinated. This past week my heart has sunk reading the daily totals, mostly all of them unvaccinated people. It is frustrating to see restrictions coming back in the Central Okanagan because we know it may only be a matter of time before it moves elsewhere. Stage Four could start on Sept. 7. That may be in doubt now. The only good news is that hospitalization and deaths remain low but they are usually a week or so behind any surge in cases so fingers crossed for next week and beyond.

    But we need to get past some of the rhetoric and look for specific solutions. The best solution as E. Johnson suggested is to reach some kind level of vaccination that where there are too few hosts for the virus to take hold. Herd immunity if that is the term. One poll claims that only 8% of Canadians will refuse the vaccination. Is 92% vaccinated enough to get us there. (The US is over 20% so we are lucky).

    But if we can’t reach that level how do we deal with the unvaccinated. Harvey, you have been to restaurants. My wife and I make a point of picking something up weekly from one of our favourite restaurants but we are not yet ready for a date out. On the other hand you mentioned that you worry about joggers and cyclists who pass you. I treat them no differently than I have in the past. So already you and I may disagree on what restrictions are appropriate.

    I was listening to a podcaster yesterday who had been in a restaurant. Some of the servers were masked; others weren’t. He asked about the restaurant’s mask policy. The unvaccinated had to wear a mask. Would that be enough of a restriction for you. Or should the unvaccinated be denied employment.

    I don’t think anybody is questioning that the unvaccinated should be denied international travel. How about national?

    I believe the Ontario plan for schools in September is to allow the unvaccinated to come to school but if there is an incident where students come in contact with an infected person, the unvaccinated would be sent home for a period of time and until they have a negative test result while the vaccinated can still stay in school. This is similar to the BC policy regarding measles and mumps. Is that an acceptable restriction or should the unvaccinated be denied in school attendance.

    Bonnie Henry is losing patience with health workers who are unvaccinated. So has Biden. I believe his policy is for the unvaccinated to continue to wear fully protective gear. Is that enough of a restriction or should they be denied employment.

    And my questions are not just for you Harvey. I am curious where some of the unvaccinated on here stand on these questions. What things are they prepared to give up to remain unvaccinated.

    Sorry for the ramble but I mind works best with specifics not generalities.

    (Response: Dining out could end up being my Achilles heel … in more ways than one. I enjoy it as much as a social event as a culinary one. But I still do so only in/with a very small bubble of usually two (four at max); only in restaurants we feel are doing particularly good at sanitizing, separating diners, and we tend to go very early …when there’s almost no one there. Of course, there are risks, with servers, cooks, managers … but I gamble that they too are just as concerned as we are to stay safe, and realize ONE publicized outbreak at their facility could kill their business for weeks or more, so hopefully testing is a regular art of their own routines…and so has vaccination. And I would hope they would NOT hire a server who refuses to vaxx … especially a young, partying type! Hopefully! h.o)

  56. Keith says:

    Anti vax merchandising.

    https://news.yahoo.com/desantis-sells-anti-fauci-t-200403850.html

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2019/10/15/fdc01078-c29c-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html

    Anti vax funding.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/7542/

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01260-6

    Anti vax conspiracy

    https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-health/dozen-misguided-influencers-spread-most-anti-vaccination-content-social-media

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/06/03/microchips-and-shedding-here-are-5-debunked-covid-vaccine-conspiracy-theories-spreading-online/?sh=71ec92326af0

    Idiots,? absolutely for falling for this rubbish.

    Reverse idiocy. – A shop owner in my town has all the covid safeguards in place, sanitizer, plastic screens 2 customers in the store etc. however, he is not vaccinated nor intends to get one. Yea, beats me too.

    Not sure about the vaccine.? How many millions of covid shots have been administered world wide, and what is the rate of mass die off.?

    How many vaccines have been administered to baby boomers, and what are the death numbers.?

    The Journal of American Medial Association.

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/209448

    Can you be fully vaccinated and still die from covid.? Yes, but not likely, or you could take your chances.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57610998

    The new delta variant and the dangers.

    https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-delta-variant-covid

    Best mass idiocy.? Republican Governor of Arkansas Asa Hutchinson and the chief state medico were booed by the audience for saying the vaccine did not cause infertility, given the reaction, maybe it should.

    (Response: Terrific information! I can understand skepticism, distrust when governments come up with any new plan, program or promise of any kind … especially a medical proposal to inject anything into our bodies …developed and approved on an “Emergency” basis. Remember thalidomide! But when people are falling left and right, by the hundreds, then thousands, then hundreds of thousands … and several independent medical research labs associated with very prominent universities, pharmaceutical companies come up with a medication that has ben tested for months on several thousands, evaluated by scientists and health authorities in the UK, US, Canada, and the EU …as having huge success and only miniscule numbers of complications, I think we have to then start administering to a wider group, especially those particularly vulnerable and often succumbing to the virus. Most Covid vaccines were PROVEN VERY VERY successful, with very, very few problems before widespread distribution was begun. And since then, millions of lives have already been saved worldwide. So it raises my blood pressure to see how many flat earth type wackos (including “doctors” spreading independently and clinically unproven claptrap, or deliberately deceptive and frankly evil politicians out there who are willing to sacrifice others’ lives just to please their uninformed and/or misguided “idiot” voters or so their friends, supporters and businesses can stay open and make money. Disgraceful. h.o)

  57. Not Sure says:

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canada-is-heading-towards-a-delta-driven-fourth-wave-tam-says-1.5529290

    A fourth wave is possible. It depends on how many are vaccinated. Tam says she will be popping the champagne if we reach 90%. Right now we are at 65% fully vaccinated 81% partial.

    If the poll I read is correct and only 8% are adamant about refusing the vaccine then it is certainly possible we reach 90+%

    But here is the telling part of the article.

    89.7 per cent of all cases are occurring in eligible, but unvaccinated people, and 84.9 per cent of hospitalized cases are people who are unvaccinated. Another 5.3 per cent of cases are in those who are not yet eligible for vaccines, and 4.6 per cent of infections are in those who are partially vaccinated.

    Do the math. 89.7% are unvaccinated.
    5.3% are not yet eligible which I assume to be the kids under 12 who hopefully will be vaccinated soon.
    4.6% are the partially vaccinated.

    That is over 99%. Vaccines work! The people who are going to suffer the most are the unvaccinated and sadly kids under 12 until a vaccine is approved. If you are still hesitant
    read some of the links from Keith. We can do this.

    (Response: Exactly! And worth repeating: “89.7 per cent of all cases are occurring in eligible, but unvaccinated people, and 84.9 per cent of hospitalized cases are people who are unvaccinated. Another 5.3 per cent of cases are in those who are not yet eligible for vaccines, and 4.6 per cent of infections are in those who are partially vaccinated. Do the math. 89.7% are unvaccinated. 5.3% are not yet eligible which I assume to be the kids under 12 who hopefully will be vaccinated soon. 4.6% are the partially vaccinated. That is over 99%. Vaccines work! ” No credible research agency or statistical analysts have ever said ANY vaccine has PERFECT record in stopping and disease or virus or has no negative effect on anyone. Just as seatbelts and airbags are no guarantee you won’t get killed or injured … they just improve your chances IMMENSELY! In fact, I’d suggest the Covid vaccines have a MUCH BETTER effectiveness rate than seatbelts/airbags! It comes down to the numbers and they are now clearly showing the Covid vaccines help prevent huge numbers of suffering and save lives. But let’s keep it real: there are a LOT of very stupid people out there …and nothing anyone says or statistics prove will change their minds. They are idiots … plain and simple ..and we have a responsibility to PROTECT ourselves, our families, our co-workers and those who work in restaurants, bars, transit, theaters, travel etc. from them. The Delta virus is HIGHLY contagious and very damaging: time for the government, institutions and establishments to keep the unvaxxed idiots at bay from the rest of us. h.o)

  58. jay says:

    Just gonna throw this out there to see what the opinion is.

    The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has received thousand of reports of adverse reaction up to and including death from the vaccines.
    They say however that “Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.”

    Now 4.3 million have reportedly died AS A RESULT of Covid 19. A vast majority (95% i believe) had one or more co-morbidites such as heart disease, lung disease, kidney disease and such.
    Yet every person who dies AND has covid is considered a covid death regardless of the fact that it could have been the co-morbidity that actually was the main reason they died and covid was only a contributing factor.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf

    So this begs the question, how many people out of that 95% actually died due to covid and how many died due to their underlying condition?

    Now this doesn’t necessarily help the vaxxed vs unvaxxed argument but it does demonstrate why some people aren’t willing to gamble with their lives/health on a vaccine.
    Especially when bombarded with this for months –

    “Democrat Biden warns against rushing out coronavirus vaccine, says Trump cannot be trusted”
    “Dems balked at a coronavirus vaccine under Trump. Will they change their tune now?”
    “Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a coronavirus vaccine now would be ‘colossally stupid'”
    “Democrats face quandary on vaccine support as election nears”\
    “Democrats Fear Trump Will Rush Unsafe Vaccine To Help His Reelection Bid”
    “‘I’m not taking it’: Joe Biden, Kamala Harris led Covid vaccine skepticism parade before election”
    This stupidity was shoved down every ones throats for months. End result, people don’t trust the vaccine. This was politicized from the start.
    Yet now they want the people to trust the same vaccine they said could not be trusted.
    Gee wonder why some are still skeptical.

    Just sayin

  59. G. Barry Stewart says:

    Jay, re: Kamala Harris… I’ll give a quote of a commenter, then the link to the Kamala quote.

    “Are you serious? Her entire point was Donald Trump is not a healthcare professional and if he says take this vaccine, she won’t take it on his word and only on the healthcare professionals’ word. There’s no way you missed this unintentionally.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0

    We all have seen the great bag of Trumptastic air, bragging about his brain power and his amazing knowledge — and spouting his anti-science messaging — so of course Kamala should be cautious about taking his word on anything, especially if it involves injesting or sticking something into herself.

    Jay says, “Yet every person who dies AND has covid is considered a covid death regardless of the fact that it could have been the co-morbidity that actually was the main reason they died and covid was only a contributing factor.”

    So you’re saying a fentanyl death, fatal car crash, or gangland murder — if COVID is present — would be counted as a COVID death? I highly doubt that. Surely the coroner would want to record the MAIN cause of death.

    I get your point about how COVID especially picks off those with weakened immune systems and bodies that aren’t in tip top shape. I doubt you are thinking that the common flu would be as successful at wiping out so many people. Life expectancy in the USA will drop by over 1 year, due to COVID.

    As far as being politicized: for sure, in the USA. In Canada, all parties and provinces seem to be on the same wagon… though Alberta sometimes sticks things in the spokes. Any anti-COVID vax sentiments in Canada are coming from somewhere else.

  60. e.a.f. says:

    Jay, you make an interesting statement: but it does demonstrate why some people aren’t willing to gamble with their lives/health on a vaccine. Many people do believe the vaccine could be dangerous to their health and therefore won’t take it. However, what are the odds of having an adverse reaction to a vaccine resulting in death or long term disability? if you catch COVID, in my opinion, you are going to have a far greater chance of dying of COVID than of the vaccine, unless there are serious health issues between you and the vaccine. Personally, I rolled the dice and got the vaccine. Even if it were proven there was a 50% chance of things going side ways with the vaccine and dying for me the odds are still good, because if COVID became “team mates” the chances are 75% I’d die. Easy math.

    No vaccine has ever been perfect, but with out vaccines, the world would be an awful place, full of disease and death as it was prior to vaccines. Perhaps its because I’ve studied history and am more aware of life before vaccines or hand washing for doctors, perhaps its because as an aging baby boomer I remember when diseases killed regularly or heard about it from adults talking.

    Perhaps in all of this people might want to think beyond themselves and to a generation who can do nothing about any of this, the children. Do the unvaccinated have the right to pass on the virus to children who can not be vaccinated. Do you as a parent have the right to put your child through the grief of your dying? Do adults really understand what happens to a child when their parent dies? Do adults understand the child might well be doomed to a life of poverty because with the parents’ death there went the income. How will your child do with out you? some children at some point may realize their parent didn’t care enough about them to get a vaccine. It might not dawn on you the child might think that but you’d be surprised.
    More than one person I know quit smoking because their children nagged them into it. they were afraid their parent could die from smoking. One child I knew kept it up with the line, to the parent, if you die, I will be an orphan and no one to look after me. that is what covid can do to a kid’s perception of the world around them.

    We won’t know for sure the impact on the 1.5 million children whose parents or grandparents died for a few years, but I’m sure there will people doing thesis on the subject at some future date. This won’t be because their parent died due to an accident or an unavoidable disease, but a pretty preventable death if they had the vaccine.

    People might want to think about how they would feel if they gave their child or some one else’s child COVID and that child died or became a long hauler. How would you feel.

    There is evidence COVID does not impact children as much as adults, but we haven’t seen the impact of the new variants yet.

    No personal skin in the child game, the siblings and I never reproduced. it is a joy though to watch the children in the neighbourhood, learn to walk, bike, play, etc.

  61. Gilbert says:

    Rochelle Wolensky, the director of the CDC, has admitted officials are worried that the virus is a few mutations away from completely evading vaccines. The CDC has stated the vaccines are not perfect and estimates there are about 35,000 symptomatic infections per week among vaccinated Americans. An internal document recommends that the CDC improve communications around individual risk among the vaccinated because the risk depends on a range of factors that include age and the status of the immune system.

    In addition to age and whether or not the immune system is compromised, people with a severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) to any component of the mRNA vaccine or the viral vector vaccine should not receive that vaccine. Those who are allergic to polyethylene glycol should not receive the Mrna vaccines, and those who are allergic to polysorbate should not get the J&J/Janssen vaccine.

    Many have stated that the vaccines work, and that for this reason, people have to get vaccinated as soon as possible. It appears that those who were very eager to get vaccinated are getting sick at the same rate as the unvaccinated. Even Dr. Fauci has acknowledged this. We don’t have the full picture yet, but it seems that the vaccines are not so effective against the new virus variants.

    Israel is already administering booster shots, and more countries will undoubtedly do the same. I’ve read that Prime Minister Trudeau has ordered vaccines up to 2024. If, and this is pure speculation on my part, more people experience blood clots in the lungs and in the brain and anaphylactic shock from the propylene glycol coating on the mRNA, expect more vaccines to enter the market.

  62. Gilbert says:

    In a video (not available on Youtube) Dr. Malone says that members of congress may be bought and paid for by Pfizer, but we must do all we can to get the vaccines away from children and women in the reproductive stages. Let me add, though, that there are members who definitely are not bought and paid for by congress. One is Senator Johnson from Wisconsin.

    Clearly Dr. Malone has concerns about the Mrna vaccines. He asks if we want to live under a Chinese system in which information is heavily censored. New Zealand’s socialist PM Jacinda Ardern recently said that the government should be people’s only source of information. Others also share Dr. Malone’s concerns and even consider the mRNA vaccines to be a form of experimental genetic modification.

    The CDC recently updated the estimated infection fatality rates for the coronavirus. The updated survival rate for the age group 0-19 is 99.9%. With this information, do we really want to vaccinate children? Let’s also remember that the FDA hasn’t even approved the vaccines yet.

    Harvey, I know that we have very different views on this issue, but we both seek the truth and believe in the free exchange of ideas. I’m grateful that you allow me to express my views here. This is proof that you believe in democracy. In my opinion, we don’t know what the long-term effects of the vaccines will be. Time will tell.

    (Response: Public health issues should never be decided by ordinary citizens arguing “My Internet expert/doctor is better than your Internet doctor/expert”. That’s the problem in this Age of Internet Expertise: any on-line “expert” can say whatever they want … cite some obscure “study” by another self-proclaimed flat-earth type experts… and those who support their view/bias will AGREE automatically. I think society should rely on the cumulative expertise of RECOGNIZED research organizations, scientists, clinical studies, medical universities, public agency evaluations …and PROVEN STATISTICS. For example, although approved on an “Emergency” basis, Pfizer was actually efficacy-tested, monitored on more than 40,000 people BEFORE even being submitted for approval. Of course, NO medication comes without possible problems for some …but the stats show the approved Covid vaccines have been a gift to humanity .. with very, very few complications/problems. The Delta variant threatens our future much worse than other varieties …EVERYONE who can SHOULD immediately get vaccinated to protect their own lives and everyone around them. Period!! h.o)

  63. jay says:

    “Are you serious? Her entire point was Donald Trump is not a healthcare professional and if he says take this vaccine, she won’t take it on his word and only on the healthcare professionals’ word. There’s no way you missed this unintentionally.”

    It is statements like this that have demonized the vaccine.
    Any one with half a brain cell should know that Donald Trump had nothing to do with the creation of the vaccine other than providing funding and removing red tape.
    This statement virtually says that no healthcare providers were involved or if they were and agree with Trump they can’t be trusted.
    It is this kind of political argument that has been made by many before the election but after they were all on board to get the exact same vaccine they were trashing a month before.
    Then the media jumps on board and starts to make the same claims as the dems.
    When you have this kinda of rhetoric in your face for months many tend to believe it.

    “So you’re saying a fentanyl death, fatal car crash, or gangland murder — if COVID is present — would be counted as a COVID death? I highly doubt that. Surely the coroner would want to record the MAIN cause of death.”

    No I am not saying that. I doubt a gangland murder or car crash would fall under this criteria as is outlined in the data. But many of the 95% of deaths could have been due to a heart attack or stroke or liver failure or any other co-mobidity but since they had cobid that were reported as covid deaths. This is clearly expressed in the data packet.
    Many elderly deaths likely did not have an autopsy since they were expected or DNR status.
    We just can’t be sure. Even a coroner could not say for sure unless is was blatantly obvious. A death from respiratory disease could mimic a covid death quite easily. The cause of death in cases of multiple underlying problems would likely be cardiorespiratory arrest with secondary causes being heart disease or liver disease or even covid. A covid death alone only occurred in 6% of cases reported.

    Again this not an argument for or against the vaccine. It is working. I think people should get it. But I will not chastise, belittle or demand that they be locked down.
    If they wanna risk catching covid then that is their gamble.
    But, as seems to be the case, the vaccinated are spreading this just as badly, then everyone will need to be lockdown again and I don’t think anyone wants that.

  64. jay says:

    Oh another comment on this statement –

    ““Are you serious? Her entire point was Donald Trump is not a healthcare professional and if he says take this vaccine, she won’t take it on his word and only on the healthcare professionals’ word. There’s no way you missed this unintentionally.””

    So what makes it ok for Biden and Harris to push the vaccine but not Donald Trump?
    Neither are healthcare professionals. Neither had anything to do with the creation of the vaccine. Both are now pondering mandatory vaccinations with a vaccine they said you couldn’t trust.

    Is it their healthcare people? Well seems to me most are the same. Fauci worked with the Trump administration. The CDC, FDA, NIH and everyone else worked with the administration.
    Funny isn’t it that for the last part of Trumps presidency the dems and media blamed Trump for every single covid death. Every day there were tickers on the screen of every news report showing the deaths and total. But then the election happened and as soon as Biden was sworn in, that all stopped. The media took down the counters and the media didn’t start blaming Biden, they said nothing. They even continued to blame the Trump admin for lack of vaccines and no infrastructure which were complete lies. Then Biden even took credit for it all.

    So there is no doubt Harris/Biden deliberately inflamed the situation for political gain. Nothing they said held an iota of fact and quite possibly lead to people not getting the vaccine and then dying from Covid.

  65. Not Sure says:

    Could I change this around a bit.

    1. I believe that covid is a serious, dangerous virus.
    2. I believe that we have to do things to combat it, firstly by following health guidelines and secondly now that vaccines are available by getting vaccinated.

    I can understand the concerns of people who are reluctant to get vaccinated, but …

    Cases are rising, especially in the unvaccinated. Breakthrough cases in the vaccinated are occurring due to variants making it more important that we get vaccinated quickly. The vaccinated are still better protected from hospitalization and death so less of a drain on our health system. It would appear that vaccines right now are the key to getting us out of the horror show of the last 18 months with closed businesses and the secondary consequences of living the kind of life we have been living.

    So this is my question to the unvaccinated. How do you see this playing out if we don’t get to at least the 90% vaccination rate that Dr. Tam is hoping for? Is there a solution that can accommodate your reluctance without putting the rest of us at risk? (It is an honest question. Maybe I am missing something.)

    (Response: Very clear new statistical EVIDENCE (not that unvaxxed idiot fringe go by that!) from the World Health Organization today: Covid cases worldwide have increased 80% in the past month, overwhelmingly in countries with low vaccination rates: for example, in Africa, where 70% of countries have less than 10 per cent vaccinated, deaths have more than doubled in the month. Very sad. And what makes it worse is that there are so many countries with people pleading for vaccine supply, while here in North America, where you have a vaccine selection FREE for the asking, so many idiots are refusing the job … and are helping the extremely contagious Delta virus spread. Governments MUST do the TOUGH JOB and act to protect workers and vaccinated customers from the recurring spread … and the unvaxxed (and usually unmasked) idiots willingly causing it. h.o)

  66. Tim W says:

    Disclaimer fully that I do not prescribe to Conservative politics, far from it, but two recent articles from Conservative leaning pundits provide some context to what we’re witnessing with vaccine hesitancy or whatever buzzword captures this. David Frum argues in his Atlantic article that the free market can boost numbers by making it a condition of business to vaccinate, some companies are already doing it. I agree, business does not have to cater to the unvaccinated, the same people who support not baking wedding cakes for Gay couples. Andrew Coyne argues that the misinformation infrastructure is too far engrained and aided by social media platforms to have any affect at turning it around. I tend to agree with both points, government which has botched a lot of the pandemic response, cannot do much more to convince people to protect themselves and also, the misinformation highway has gone from being fringe to mainstream. Harvey, you say it best when you call these people out as idiots, with the full disclaimer of those medically unable to vaccinate. I think they are also extremely selfish. For a career politician like Jason Kenney to rail against social experiments, is conducting the ultimate one in Wild Rose Country by ending the pandemic because he says so. Strange days ahead and this fall and winter may be like no other.

    (Response: Jason Kenney is being totally irresponsible in his handling of Covid by permitting people WITH Covid to circulate in the general population. Meanwhile, I urge everyone who knows someone who has refused the vaccine to pass along this link … about a 39-year-old father of five: https://www.fox5vegas.com/coronavirus/i-should-have-gotten-the-damn-vaccine-las-vegas-father-of-5-dies-from-covid/article_527bc1aa-f0ec-11eb-9a47-273d1d8d32ac.html. What an idiot! h.o)

  67. D. M. Johnston says:

    After a good friend of mine, elder brother who caught Covid now has some very dangerous and lingering effects.

    It now seems Covid has a long term effect on the heart and vascular system, especially with the aged (like me). As Covid is quite new, we do not know the long term effects of Covid, so I repeat again:

    Remember Polio?

    Remember movies of the hiss, click-clank of the “Iron Lung”?

    Remember the fear, no birthday parties, no swimming; remember the children in wheelchairs and leg braces going to school?

    No? Well the Salk vaccine ended that horror, yet we have anti-vaxers gaining airtime, spewing their dated clap trap.

    Get vaccinated damn it; do yourself, your family and the public at large a big favour, get vaccinated.

    I am gobsmacked how many, so called intelligent people, have become so anti science.

    Again, get vaccinated!

    (Response: No only anti-science, but so political! I don’t care if someone is left, right or whatever party they support: I just can’t understand how ANYONE could see a vicious virus that passes through the air and has already seriously infected and killed more than 4 MILLION people worldwide as a “political” issue! It’s ALL about the science or maybe even “God’s” way of strengthening the human gene pool by culling so many “idiots” incapable or unwilling to believe just breathing could get them infected with something they don’t even see or smell ..so how could it hurt or kill them? Yes, idiots! h.o)

  68. Patrick Mullen says:

    No one on this planet like this goof or anywhere can implement masks, distance or make you take the FAKE VACCINE! ITS YOUR RIGHT AND IT CAN NEVER BE TAKEN AWAY SO JUST SAY NO!! NO ONE CAN STOP YOU FROM DOING WHAT YOU WANT AND IF THEY DO, THEY WILL GO TO JAIL FOR THE REST OF THERE LIFES OR GET NEREMBURG TRAIL DEATH When all is said and done. All this is being done to bring in THE NEW WORLD ORDER WHICH IS TOTALLY COMMUNIST. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AND TRUDEAU WILL EVENTUALLY BE ARRESTED AND PUT TO DEATH!!!!

    (Edited…off topic)

    THERE IS NO VIRUS AND NEVER WAS BUT KNOW THIS, ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE FAKE COVID SCAM WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED BACK IN SOCIETY AGAIN BECAUSE THEY WILL BE CONSIDERED AND MENIS. THE ONLY PLANDEMIC OUT THERE IS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA PUSHING ALL THE LIES, LIKE CTV, CBC AND GLOBAL NEWS PLUS MANY MORE.

    (Edited..off topic)

    the msm will all be dismantled in Canada and other countries. THERE IS MASS ARRESTS COMING FOR THE MSM WORLDWIDE IN MOST COUNTRIES AND NEVER FORGET WHAT THEY DID TO THE MSM IN GERMANY IN 46-1949, THEY PUT THEM TO DEATH FOR ALL THERE LIES!!
    Have a nice day

    (Response: Readers should not be shocked: I’m sure it’s not hard to find people like this at the anti-vaxx anti-mask protests. Its their right to hold such beliefs …. and nothing scientists, doctors, statisticians say/do will change their minds. However the latest figures show the unvaxxed have become the major spreaders of Covid and they do not have the “right” to wantonly spread Covid to others, especially workers who deal with the public: PROOF of vaccination should be REQUIRED to enter restaurants, bars, theatres, crowded venues etc. …or stay away! Accommodation is societal suicide. h.o)

    • John's Aghast says:

      Patrick, there’s no need to shout. What you need is a course in ESL and a chance to think before you post.

  69. NVG says:

    Dear Patrick Mullen,

    Your use of capitalized letters, almost throughout your rant against the protection that vaccines offer to block Covid-19, must be due to having an over abundance of testosterone. Its just two pricks.

    Over at Emptywheel there’s this article:

    “If COVID damages blood vessels in men’s reproductive organs the same way it does in other organs and limbs, erectile dysfunction medications like Viagara and Cialis may not work as well (or at all) because functioning blood vessels are needed to distribute the medication throughout tissues”

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2021/08/04/this-is-your-dck-on-covid-19-reaching-stubbornly-unvaxxed-men/

    Rant on Brother, before you know it, your current font size 40 will be down to 12, or smaller.

    PS Harvey I am on topic

  70. Marge says:

    Not sure if you are still taking comments or not but just wanted to say this.

    My daughter who lives in Washington state was planning on coming to visit us this week. She did the rapid test for COVID and was perfectly sure things were all right, so sure that she was halfway to us before she got her results. Then she checked her phone and guess what. She tested positive for COVID, even though she had been doubly vaccinated with Phizer. She had to turn around and go home. Her whole family (all vaccinated) are now in quarantine and they too are scheduled to be tested this day for the illness! She had some of the symptoms but her doctor had told her that since she was vaccinated, it was probably just a cold.

    So please don’t think that just because you are vaccinated that you are safe from getting the Delta variant. Wear your masks and practice social distancing please.

    (Response: Sorry to hear that. But fortunately she was tested: imagine how many people who could have contracted the virus over her visit. Health officials have warned that vaccinated people can still get/carry/spread the Covid virus … but the degree of illness will be much lower and almost no one who is vaccinated is dying these days if they had been infected. I believe we will struggling with Covid for at least another year … and internationally for two to five years. The only way to defeat Covid faster is increased vaccinations … probably eventually annual boosters as well. h.o)

  71. johnny says:

    My dental hygenist, back in ~Jan2021, told me the shot was good for 2 years or more…lol!

    I asked her the source of that info…”experts” at some webinar she attended. I showed her, on my phone, the director of Moderna’s “vaccine research” saying protection “was likely” to last less than 6 months.

    Crickets.

    She also believed the mask she was wearing was solid gold protection, I informed her to check the box as it says on the box that is doesn’t protect against a virus…she checks the box.

    Crickets.

    Beat the shehit out of my teeth for the next 30 minutes…should have broke the news after the cleaning…lesson learned.

    Edit: If anyone can find that Moderna directors interview, please post the link. It was in a major news outlet (WSJ? Post?) story, I kept the link, the article has been removed!..big surprise…maybe it’s in the NEXUS database if anyone has access.

    (Response: With any NEW pandemic, no one can possibly know in advance exactly how easily the virus will spread, react, imbed, resist or exactly who it will affect and how. Same with vaccines: it’s all a learning game …with very high stakes: people suffering and dying by the millions as science/research/efficacy/testing evolves. But now, there picture is quite clear: VACCINATION is PROTECTION. For how long or how often … still evolving…but sure proving to be MUCH better than doing nothing. h.o)

  72. NVG says:

    https://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/2020/06/04/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine/

    The Untold Story of Moderna’s Race for a COVID-19 Vaccine

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